My first out-of-state turnkey was a bust (sort of)

My first out-of-state turnkey was a bust (sort of)

Rental Property Investor · Beverly Hills, CA · Member since 2014 · 472 posts · 272 votes

Just thought I'd share a story for any others out there considering buying a multi-family out-of-state, sight-unseen, from another BP member who markets and manages properties.

I found a deal on the BP Marketplace in the Cleveland, OH area. It was marketed as turnkey and ready to go. The numbers looked great and the person marketing the property had a positive reviews. Everything appeared peachy so I decided to move on it.

I knew early on, that I wanted this first remote sight-unseen investment to go well for a few reasons. One, I didn't want to lose money (who does?) and second, I wanted a positive experience to give me that mental motivation I need to push me to do something that is normally outside of my comfort zone. One of the ways I told myself I'd do this is to make sure to get the property appraised and make sure I get the property inspected.

Long story short - I got the property under contract. Once it was under contract, I was told that the owner was still finishing up some carpeting in the unit. I thought to myself, "that's strange - I thought this property was all ready to go." Nevertheless, it's just carpet so I move on to scheduling an inspection. 

The day of inspection comes around and the BP member who was marketing the deal and managing everything on the ground informs me that the utilities are not on and that the owner is still finishing up some work. Frustrating, because again - I thought the property was already ready to go and I would have expected someone, either my guy or the seller, to anticipate needing the utilities turned on. So we reschedule the inspection.

A week goes by and I check in to see how the inspection went, and low-and-behold - one of the units still doesn't have the gas turned and work is still continuing on the unit requiring we yet again delay inspection a week.

At the end of the day, I backed out of the deal. None of the issues were that big of a deal, but there was something about running into this many problems just getting to the inspection that rubbed me the wrong way. I don't expect every acquisition to go 100% smoothly, but I was operating under the premise that the property was ready to go. If that wasn't the case, then who knows what else might be hiding for me to deal with in the future. I've purchased several homes in the past and have never needed to reschedule an inspection, let alone more than once.

It's a shame - I was really pumped about it and I've already sent a ton of referrals to person who sourced the deal, but it just didn't pan out.

I wonder what the community thinks about this situation and if I could have or should have handled it any differently.

It was a great learning experience either way. On to the next one!

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Brie SchmidtBusiness Member
Moderator
Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2013 · 6k+ posts · 5k+ votes
12y

I almost bought from a turn key company and found out during inspections that they were not really turn key.  Luckily for me, my out of state market was only 90 minutes away.  

If I were buying in a market I could not access easily, I would network on BP and find a local investor who is not involved in my deal and pay them to attend the inspection on my behalf and give their opinion as a disinterested third party.  

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Sharad M.Pro Member
    Carlsbad, CA · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Mike D'Arrigo:

    @Joshua McGinnis 

    I don't know who the turn-key company was but I'm not sure it was because they were hiding anything. In the hottest markets, properties are selling before the renovation is complete. However, you should have been informed that it wasn't done. What we do in this case is make the closing subject to completion of rehab, inspection and a tenant being in place. The key is communication. I wouldn't wait for renovation to be done if it's a good property and you have confidence in you're working with. The best properties sell quickly so it's good to lock them up while the rehab is being done.

    Mike, 

    If this is the case, then the properties are not really turn-key. They are fixer upper properties. I read up definition of turn-key property on your website it says that a property must be:

    1) Fully renovated

    2) Rented

    3) Professionally managed

    4) Cash-flowing from the start

    And in case of Joshua, it didn't meet any of the above criteria, so IMO, it's a stretch to call that property a turn-key.

  • Real Estate Investor · Somerset, KY · Member since 2011 · 211 posts · 64 votes
    12y

    Turnkey in a rehabbers mind might be different than that of others so it might have been close to turnkey but I dont blame you either b/c it wasnt. Itshould have been fully disclosed about the carpet, inspections etc and you should be getting good explinations of things not mentioned, not just "its worth it".

  • Broker · Logan, UT · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    To echo what others have said in this thread, in this business things go wrong all the time.

    It is incumbent on us as professionals, particularly when we're dealing with other people's money, to be proactive and transparent with bad news.

    I don't have a lot of patience for people who can't communicate with me when problems arise and my interest is at stake.

    Maybe it was an isolated incident and no big deal, but why risk it?

  • Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2014 · 104 posts · 32 votes
    12y

    I can't imagine buying a property sight unseen. I guess I just don't have that faith in others at this point. Even depending on appraisals and home inspections won't do it for me. The appraisals in my area are all over the place and honestly at this point I think a lot of time they just put it near the asking price if you don't believe it is flat out ridiculous.  Within 5 minutes of seeing a property, I gain so much more of a profound understand of the property then just reading about it. There are too many shysters out there for me to buy site  unseen.

    I guess I will echo what is mentioned about, "turnkey" can mean many different things to different people.

  • Investor · Mc Kinney, TX · Member since 2014 · 59 posts · 19 votes
    12y

    @Joshua McGinnis 

    You have to make decisions based on your values.  In your case you schedule an inspection and then get a call the property isn't ready.

    In the end you decided to back out due to communication problems.  I read what you posted and when given "Don't worry the wait will be worth it" type of emails, that sends a warning sign.  Instead a "The rehab is behind schedule, we expect XXX days to be ready, we are laying carpet and need to get the utilities turned on." is the type of response I'd expect.  Although I'd of pushed for why I wasn't informed more about the status of the project.  Again pointing to potential communication issues.

    Just extrapolate the type of communication being given to you pre sale and imagine that going on after you bought.

    In similar situation I too would of bailed on the purchase.

  • Lender · Rochester, NY · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    That is what makes me so nervous about investing out of state. My wife had her license in the past and many out of state people bought property here in Rochester NY for top dollar in declining areas - That being said when they went to sell the property they were taking a huge hit. In addition, the management company was charging them outrageously. I do know of a good property manager here in Rochester NY, but it does suck up a lot of the profit.

  • Realtor · Torrance, CA · Member since 2014 · 49 posts · 29 votes
    12y

    @Joshua McGinnis I too had a similar experience in Cleveland from a BP member.The numbers looked great, and in a decent neighborhood. He said it only needed a little work to get rent ready. Some outside siding and paint and carpet.And some minor stuff.

    We got our own inspector and we had no problems getting in and everything went smooth.The agent was great and very professional.

    When the inspector got back to us, he just said "RUN". It was in such bad shape that there were joists not even connecting. Bad leaks, Knob  and tube wiring, and many more.He did say it could be rehabbed but it would cost more than the price of the house.And it would be right at market value.(No longer a great deal).

    We had no problem with getting the ernest $ back,and we backed out of the deal with only a $350 loss from the inspection report. Just the cost of doing business.

    My advice to anyone buying a house .... Get your own inspector. Good Luck!

  • Real Estate Investor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2014 · 143 posts · 29 votes
    12y

    Really great comments on this post.  Joshua, it probably sounds pretty basic, but I always check into companies I'm doing business with, and try to get referrals from others.  That seems to help as part of the filter process. Thanks for sharing!

    Andrew

  • Rental Property Investor · Phoenix/Lima, Arizona/OH · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    12y

    @Joshua McGinnis This and worse is what I get in my email box practically daily. I don't know why people think that REI can possibly be a hands off sport - you are buying freaking toilets and tenants using them - how hands off do you think it can possibly be...? Property management is serious business and these fly-by-nighters wouldn't know how to do it the right way if it hit em in the face...I've written about this on the blog.

    Now - it's good to see @Chris Clothier jump in on this.  I've never heard anyone speak poorly of Memphis Invest or Clothier brothers, and though I wouldn't be caught buying turn-key SFRs or small multi ever, they are the only reputable source on BP as far as I can tell...

    As I see it, you have 2 options if you are committed to buying managed property: Buy from Chris or jump into a syndicate as a limited partner.  I play in the big stuff precisely because bigger projects support professional 5-star management with all that entails...

    Good Luck! 

  • Real Estate Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2013 · 301 posts · 112 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Joshua McGinnis:

    It's a shame - I was really pumped about it and I've already sent a ton of referrals to person who sourced the deal, but it just didn't pan out.

    I wonder what the community thinks about this situation and if I could have or should have handled it any differently.

    It was a great learning experience either way. On to the next one!

     Sorry to hear about your bad experience.  

    It's honestly shocking that this member would ask you for referrals before you even purchased the properties.  

    If you had that much trouble in the first 30 days, imagine the issues you'd likely have over the next several years! 

  • Real Estate Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2013 · 301 posts · 112 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Joshua McGinnis:

    @Adam Gerig The fact that you recommended an inspection says something. When I asked my guy if he recommended I get an inspection (knowing I would be doing it anyway), he said, "It's up to you. Some people do it and some don't." Again, not too reassuring. Nothing wrong what he said, it's true - but it's not what I would have said to someone in my position.

    Always get an inspection, especially with older homes in Cleveland.  I've done it for each of the four properties i've bought in the last several months.  My inspector spends about 3hrs in my houses and provides me with a 20 page report, including pictures.  Best $250 I've spent on each of the houses.  

  • Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2012 · 111 posts · 73 votes
    12y

    As far as I can tell, there are very few "turnkey" companies out there.  Most of the time, it is a marketing company and a rehab company.  They are two completely separate companies and neither really knows what the other is doing.  From what it sounds this is an example of that.

    It really bothers me that these marketing companies market these properties as there own when in fact they know absolutely nothing about the properties or what was done to them.  

    And what is worse, is when something does go wrong with the property, the marketing company that was pitching the property is contacted they IMMEDIATELY step out of the picture and say that it is not their responsibility.  It was a 3rd party manager that made the mistake.  There was an example on here not too long ago.  

    It truly is sickening, to know that people are being sold over priced, under rehabbed properties in undesirable neighborhoods to newbie investors. 

    A turnkey company in my opinion is one that has everything in house.  Acquisitions, rehabbers, management, marketing all under one roof.  One of the few companies that I see that have done this is @Chris Clothier   I don't invest in turnkey, but from what I have read of his.  He would be the first guy I would talk to.

  • John HornerPro Member
    Flipper/Rehabber · Columbus, OH · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 655 votes
    12y

    You made a good decision.  Every person has different comfort levels. 

    I can tell you this, EVERY SINGLE DEAL will have something come up.  Whether it's something with the seller, the agent, the inspector, the appraisal, the financing, the title company, the bank,  and so on and so on.  I have yet to do a deal where everything has gone perfectly smooth and on time.  The sooner you accept that you are going to deal with SOMETHING on every deal, the easier it is to accept it and deal with it when it arrives!

    Keep taking action!

  • Investor · Fort Wayne, IN · Member since 2012 · 276 posts · 77 votes
    12y

    @Zoran M. think your dead on.  I think it's always good to have an independent third party go in and tell you what their thoughts are on the property.  The only thing that sometimes frustrates me is that their job is to pick out everything and anything that is wrong with the property and sometimes it scares would be buyers away.  For example, I had an inspection come back and the buyer had an issue with about 5 different items that they were scared about and I told them those aren't that big of a deal I can have my contractor go in and knock those out in half a day before we close, but to him (first time investor) that killed the deal because it wasn't in pristine condition.

    Especially for those that have never dove into investing from afar and investing for the first time I think sometimes there's a misnomer about what a property is going to be like.  I feel like sometimes especially first time investors expect a property's condition to be like a new build construction.  In our area if you are buying something that's less than 15 years old your returns are dismal.  However, if you get a 50 year old home that may have just been rode hard and do a rehab on it we get very very good returns, but that being said it's an older home and there are going to be more upkeep on them.  All in all if the numbers work and both sides feel like they are getting a good shake and it passes the smell test I think it's just a matter of what that individual person is comfortable with in moving forward.  

  • Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    On the out of state buys, my realtor always knows whats up with the condition before I proceed further. If that checks out then I would try have my handyman or wholesaler/video friend do a walk thru before going to offer/inspection. I have a great inspector. This is definitely one of the keys to protecting your capital. I fully trust him to give me the low down and normally I am on the phone with him during part of the inspection. From this point I pretty much know what I am up against. I understand this one did not get to that level but I assume most investors have a goto trusted inspector. They won't be the cheapest either.

    I imagine since this probably was a "turnkey retail priced" property that some could beat the value in 10 minutes of searching so I doubt you missed much by bailing. Still a valuable dry run for all out of state investing bpers. Thanks for sharing.

    thanks, 

    Matt

  • Investor · Westminster, CO · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    I am curious, what do you call "turnkey?"  Does a house require a "rehab" to qualify as a "turnkey?"  The house I closed on yesterday, in Texas, was being managed by the PM that manages my other Texas rentals, and the investor just wanted out.  Not only did I get an appraisal, home inspection and know the area through my research, I also had five years of Property Management Bookkeeping, knew EXACTLY when the tenant had paid rent, every repair request for five years, practically everything about the property.  And the house was built in 2007.  I have to replace the AC unit because the builder used a CHEAPO brand, but I got the seller to reduce the price by the cost of the AC Unit.  My Home Inspection gave me the heads up on the AC, there is no way, even with an onsite inspection, that I could have caught the crack in the copper tubing deep inside the unit.  How many of you, when you do your VISUAL inspection, crawl the basement, attic, open every appliance electrical access points, etc....??  For me, an ONSITE inspection of a property is a complete waste of time and money.  A state licensed Home Inspector is far more qualified, PLUS, is a non interested party in the transaction as he/she gets paid no matter what is found.  You know what happens when you SEE a house, you get a FEELING!  And what is a FEELING but just an EMOTION!  Buying Real Estate is like playing poker, "LEAVE YOUR EMOTIONS AT THE DOOR."  When emotions get involved, decision making becomes poorer.  25 years ago I would have NEVER bought a house without seeing it AND the neighborhood.  But today, with the internet, you can practically walk the neighborhood from your own computer screen.  Yes, it is difficult to find good "boots on the ground" but when you do, it can be a lifelong PROFITABLE relationship for both of you.

    If you want to actually SEE a house before you buy it, that's fine, I understand.  But don't criticize me because I have no interest in seeing a house I am buying.  I know what I am doing and having seen over 10,000 houses in my lifetime I am tired of it.

  • Property Manager · Livonia, MI · Member since 2011 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    did not read all the replies, but if you were close in the area, i'd say "you backed out too soon". 

    since you are far away and the seller/BP member clearly knew that, you are correct to feel uneasy. 

    note to the seller/BP member - dont advertise as "turn key" if stuff still needs to be done to the house. turn key in most peoples minds means "i unlock the door and put my toothbrush in the medicine cabinet. Then i am starting dinner".

  • Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y

    @Ali Boone and @Chris Clothier  Thanks so much for your perspective on running turnkey businesses.  It's been suggested to me several times that I should sell turn-key. I know how to get a screaming deal on the buy, have very good, tried and true rehab resources in my farms, and know how screen and install tenants.  I've had no interest in turnkey as the customer service end of it looks beyond my ability (and patience).  I could never handhold or babysit a buyer.  I'd be in the same category as Ali's rehabber that scares away buyers by being too gruff.  I'm polite and well mannered enough, but have little patience with nervous, needy, wishy-washy buyers.  I save all my customer service hand holding for my sellers. And I do A LOT of it.

    Thanks so much for confirming that the skill you have for what you do is a gift and that it's not for me!

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    12y

    @Joshua McGinnis 

      One of the issue you may have been running into.. is that the upper mid west large cities have really funky rules about utilities.. In many cases you need to have a water or sewer cert from the city before you can close escrow.. back utl bills in Detroit attach as super lien. etc etc. It can take a lot of effort to get utls turned back on... But then again these guys should know this and have this done before presenting the product.

    The other major issue you have if this was C or D class Is THEFT  in most cases the TK guys I finance will not put major appliances into the homes until the tenant  moves in.. See the thread of the lady in Memphis who keeps getting her house broken into and things stolen during the rehab process. Most Australian TK marketers will not sell a home anymore unless the tenant is already in and they can review the lease and get an inspection. Buying prior to tenant moving in is a HUGE risk in my mind in these areas. One because a vacant unit has such a high probability of being robbed or trashed.. And or negative cash flow to start. 

    Its a slippery slope with these properties for the TK or rehabber.. put everything in to satisfy the buyer and the buyers inspection only to have them stolen in a the next 2 or 3 days.  There is not one person in  this business in the mid west or out east that has not had this happen to them.. stealing condenser units is a sport in those areas just look at the product and you will see the units are caged.. Bars on windows and doors etc. Its just the reality of trying to buy properties that have very high rental returns.. RISK =REWARD 

    I don't understand if you want to buy multi why you would not simply employ a good Commercial broker who specializes in this field.. look at units that are all tenanted and up and running.. So you get 2 years of history at least.. Buying these units based on the nice TK or worse yet the marketing agent has no skin in the game is in my mind counter intuitive.

    There has to be hundreds of multi in Cleveland listed on MLS and up and running... Just go about it like you were buying a multi in LA and or any other investment.. Have your realtor show you them.. Get third party appraisals and do your inspections review the past financials and review the current leases.. When you buy a property with no history how do you know how your going to do its all blue sky at that point.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    12y

    @Mike McKinzie 

      Exactly Mike why buy something with no history... especially multi family deals. there are thousands of them up and running.. why the need to buy SO CALLED turn Key.. Its really just a rehabbed vacant unit with no history to back up the performance claims..

  • Real Estate Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2013 · 301 posts · 112 votes
    12y

    To @Jay Hinrichs point, a portfolio of 24 SFR and MFH just came on the market in the eastern suburbs of Cleveland. They are currently occupied and are "turn-key." The managing partner built up the portfolio over 10 years and recently passed away. Feel free to reach out if you want the addresses.

    Also, I agree.  A property is not "turn-key" unless the tenant is in place.  Unless this is true, don't market is as such - market it as "you buy, we rehab, we place tenant, etc." 

    If I want turnkey, I'll give a reputable operator like @Ali Boone a call. 

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    12y

    @Zoran M. 

    last thing I want is more rentals out of state.. I sold my 350 SFR's in Oct one the happiest days of my life along with selling the boat and the Airplane.. WEll the airplane was a tough one.

    My point is there are performing assets in every market especially multi family.. Were you can get tax returns review leases and get a inspection report that is truly 3rd party and an appraisal if your financing.

    As I stated The Aussies got so taken advantage of from Marketing companies and shady TK companies that the ones left in business won't put their clients into anything that is not already rented as well as rehabbed etc...

    And of course every one kind of dances over the MASSIVE theft issues in these areas.. People on the west coast that can afford to buy these homes don't live in those kind of neighborhoods ( like the original poster says Beverly Hills  I don't think they are cage their condenser units there or barring up the doors and windows  LOL.

    I can pretty much 100% state this as fact.. Most of the folks that venture into buying TK out of state that is lower end C and D class will not achieve anywhere near the returns that are stated on the marketing materials. and would in fact do much better investing with a very reputable hard money lender in LA or Bay Area over time.... Like Norris group and other premiere lenders that take in private money and pay 7 to 10% returns.. those are real they are semi liquid and far safer than trying it on your own.. And are truly passive.

  • Redwood City, CA · Member since 2014 · 14 posts · 3 votes
    12y

    Thanks for sharing @Joshua McGinnis ! I have a similar mindset: don't want to loose money and want to have a good experience (I'm a newbie).

    Is amazing the amount of info you can get by setting up a "turn key" keyword alert on the forum :)

    @Ali Boone / @Chris Clothier Thanks for expressing your thoughts on truth turn key investment. It gives me a lot of encouragement reading several of your posts.

  • Seattle, WA · Member since 2014 · 18 posts · 6 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Bruno Tavares:

    Thanks for sharing @Joshua McGinnis ! I have a similar mindset: don't want to loose money and want to have a good experience (I'm a newbie).

    Is amazing the amount of info you can get by setting up a "turn key" keyword alert on the forum :)

    @Ali Boone / @Chris Clothier Thanks for expressing your thoughts on truth turn key investment. It gives me a lot of encouragement reading several of your posts.

    How ironic!  I just set up "turn key" as an alert about two hours ago and you were the first alert I got.  ;) 

  • Involved In Real Estate · Clevelend, OH · Member since 2009 · 15 posts · 8 votes
    12y

    Joshua – sorry to hear that you had a bad experience. There are a couple of things I’d like to addresses.

    1st regarding the Cleveland market – Location, location, location and timing, timing, timing! I get a very good response from my probate marketing and there are properties that look good on paper, but based on their location, I wouldn't take if they were free. It’d be like someone giving me a great big bill and a bunch of headaches to go with it… no, thank you… but, two years from now it may be a totally different story for that particular neighborhood. Please be careful where and when you buy in Cleveland. The flip side of that is there are great neighborhoods in Cleveland that were selling at $30k-$40k two years ago and due to targeted redevelopment programs (follow the money), rehabbed properties are now going for $135k-$150k and new construction condos at $200k+. There are other areas in the city that I’d love to buy in, but they've been in such high demand for the past few years, that deals are very hard to come by. Cleveland is defiantly on the up-swing and my guess is it’ll probably take about 4 to-6 years for its national perception to catch up.

    2nd regarding turnkey and customer service expectations – I agree with Joseph and Chris, there should be minimal issues with a turnkey… that’s why it’s a “turnkey.” I’m curious, was the Realtor in the deal representing you, acting as a dual agent or representing the seller? I see you’re an agent too so you understand fiduciary duty and the difference it can make. That said, it’s not so much the unexpected problems (which we all try to prevent, but understand may happen) that I’d be most uncomfortable with, but the lack of straight forward, up front communication. How can you make good business decisions with missing and/or incomplete information? The answer is you can’t!  For example, why wasn't the gas on and why weren't you told… is it because someone forgot to call and set the appointment, but it’s done now and the gas will be on next week? Was the appointment set but inspections are running a few weeks behind so you’ll ask for a free extension or minor per diem rebate as Steve suggested? Or is there a bigger problem that’ll take time and money to fix, causing the renter who’s scheduled to move in next month to find another place to live and you to have a vacant unit to market and fill while heading into the off season/cold months? Any one of these could be the problem but they all have very different consequences to you as the buyer.

    In my opinion accurate, timely information is critical. If you were getting the run around and being kept in the dark, then the information you needed to make good business decisions, for whatever reason, was being withheld from you. I completely understand why you would walk away!

    Best of luck on your next out of town deal and like Joseph, if you need anything in the Cleveland, Ohio area I’m glad to help.

    Go Cavs! Go Browns! Go Bucks!

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