Rental Property Investor · St. Louis, MO · Member since 2021 · 8 posts · 11 votes
Is $85k too much or too little to budget for a complete gut rehab for a $969 square foot, 1 story, signal family in St. Louis area? Roof, foundation, and all brick are good structure good. However, pretty much everything else needs renovation or completely replaced. Removed all interior studs and reframing out two bedroom/two bath. Needs new electric, plumbing, HVAC, and windows.
Investor · Argyle, TX · Member since 2014 · 112 posts · 73 votes
4y
That's a fairly decent number for that size of a property in St Louis. You may have to be creative or more open-minded when sourcing some materials. Get multiple quotes on everything. And don't pay upfront.
@Joseph Holliway I have a contractor at $50/hour and I am also helping 4-5 hours a day to learn more and put some sweat equity in.
For example the difference between contracting someone and you doing it yourself (as long as you know what you are doing or have a mentor to catch mistakes) I am doing a remodel full gut with some foundation issues for around 60k. Converting from a 3:1 to a 4:3, dormering the roof and straightening and reinforcing the confer block foundation. It seems low because the contractor is a partner and opted for pay from the equity and a percentage of the equity when it comes time to sell. K.C., Mo.
@Joseph Holliway I have a contractor at $50/hour and I am also helping 4-5 hours a day to learn more and put some sweat equity in.
Licensed Contractor for $50 hr?
No, he isn't licensed. He has built a number of houses from the ground up and does a lot of renovations in the St. Louis area but has never taken the time to get licensed.
All contractors and sub contractors performing work or services within the City of St. Louis are required to obtain a graduated business license for contractors pursuant to Ordinance 61094 (Section 8.12A of the Revised City Code - 1992
If you choose to work with an unlicensed guy to save a few bucks then that is on you. But don't you kinda wonder why he never bothered to get licensed? There is always a reason....
I guess there is a small chance that he is legit and on the up-and-up but why not just hire a real Contr.....?
And no, you're still not going to get a house a stud-down remodel for $85k - Electric/plumbing/framing/Insulation/drywall/floor/paint/kitchen/baths/fixtures/exterior/etc....?
Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2020 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
4y
@Michael Fitzgibbon, are you going high end finishes or low end? Are you replacing floor joists and all walls or keeping existing framing and just new drywall? Do you need to rewire with all new panel? Do you need to replumb? Does sewer line need replaced? Are you replacing ducting? What about all new flooring? New subfloors? Adding any baths? Basement or slab on grade? How much plumbing rework needs done? How much exterior work is needed, both house and landscaping?
Basically, "gutting a property" means different things to different people.
My rehabs have often cost about $100-150psf, but my wife and I don't do low end rehabs, and most would call what we do higher end (unique tile options with bath wall tile and tile backsplashes, solid surface counters, nice cabinets). If you are going lower end (off the shelf cabinets, laminate counter tops, "builder grade" plumbing fixtures and lights) you are probably safe.
Lastly, at least in my market, buyers and agents have become wise to how to look up permits. While it may not matter if the market remains as tight as it currently is, I have known deals to fall through due to lack of permits, and also have had friends have to pull off tiles and open walls when an inspector happens to be driving down a street for another call, and saw a couple trucks.
Rental Property Investor · St. Louis, MO · Member since 2021 · 8 posts · 11 votes
4y
Thank you for the information, Evan! Because it will be a rental rather than flip we aren't going high end on appliances, cabinets, or fixture. We did replace approximately half of the floor joists. It requires a complete rewire with new panel. Replacing sewer line and replumbing everything. New HVAC and ducting. Replaced approximately a third of the subfloors. Reflooring with mid-range laminate throughout. We took out all interior studs and re-framed for 2 bed / 2 bath. Therefore, we will also be drywalling and painting the entire interior.
Exterior walls are all brick and in good shape. Roof and foundation also in good shape. Replaced soffits. Otherwise, no exterior work required.
Rental Property Investor · St. Louis, MO · Member since 2021 · 8 posts · 11 votes
4y
@Zachary H. yes, I am in the process of cutting ties now that we are done with the framing. The plumber, electrician, and HVAC hires are all licensed. I am reaching out to several licensed contractors to look into taking over and finishing the project.
Thank you for the information, Evan! Because it will be a rental rather than flip we aren't going high end on appliances, cabinets, or fixture. We did replace approximately half of the floor joists. It requires a complete rewire with new panel. Replacing sewer line and replumbing everything. New HVAC and ducting. Replaced approximately a third of the subfloors. Reflooring with mid-range laminate throughout. We took out all interior studs and re-framed for 2 bed / 2 bath. Therefore, we will also be drywalling and painting the entire interior.
Exterior walls are all brick and in good shape. Roof and foundation also in good shape. Replaced soffits. Otherwise, no exterior work required.
Rental Property Investor · St. Louis, MO · Member since 2021 · 8 posts · 11 votes
4y
@Bruce Woodruff thanks for the information. We got a builders permit with their knowledge we do not have a licensed general contractor. Our electrician, plumber, and HVAC contractors are licensed and pulling their own work permits.
Rental Property Investor · Conway, AR · Member since 2017 · 146 posts · 75 votes
4y
@Michael Fitzgibbon if you get prefinished cabinets and do low end finishes I think you could get in at under $60-70k doing some of the work yourself.
The last full gut I did on a house that small I think we only spent $50-60k. But we used a cheap shower surround in the bathroom, prefinished cabinets (only 12 linear feet of cabinets lol small kitchen), and went back with vinyl plank on floors.
“Full gut” can mean a lot of things though. We had to add 10 piers under house, mostly new floor joists, all subfloor, most sheetrock, mostly new wiring, new HVAC and ductwork, new sewer, water, and gas lines, etc… and we were able to stay under $60k I believe.
Flipper/Rehabber · Tallahassee, FL · Member since 2014 · 462 posts · 237 votes
4y
@Michael Fitzgibbon that’s like asking how long is a piece of string. There’s so many factors to determine the budget. I’d get some quotes. There are expensive electricians and not so expensive electricians. Same with plumbers, HVAC basically all the trades can cost lots more than you anticipate. So get some quotes, preferably from another investors recommendation. You can have high end finishes and contractor finishes. Sounds like you need to plan first and see if the project is viable. You can do this by finding out what the property is worth after it has been fixed up. You can hire an appraiser to do it or a broker can give their opinion. You’ll need a general contractor to pull permits and they’ll be able to help with a budget.
Is $85k too much or too little to budget for a complete gut rehab for a $969 square foot, 1 story, signal family in St. Louis area? Roof, foundation, and all brick are good structure good. However, pretty much everything else needs renovation or completely replaced. Removed all interior studs and reframing out two bedroom/two bath. Needs new electric, plumbing, HVAC, and windows.
Hi Michael. It sounds like you are making good progress on your project and have licensed people lined up, now. That's great. Short and slightly frustrating (sorry for that part) but honest answer to your question- Yes, you can get a full reno for $85k. You can get a full reno for $50k or for $150k.
Bottom line, asking here on how much to pay won't help you too much, aside from the guidance on getting licensed workers- which is obviously hugely important and hugely helpful.
It's common that my answers for a wide range of questions are- get feedback from EXPERT locals in your area that get boots on the ground and eyes on the prize, rather than financial/estimate/rent/etc advice from very well-intentioned Online 3rd parties. This is nothing at all against the amazing people here at BP- many of which have significant experience and truly and deeply know their stuff. I greatly appreciate the advice from other BP pros. But, it's risky to take too much detailed financial related advice about very specific properties that are unique, in markets we don't have dialed in, with workers we don't know and local material prices we don't calculate (and other local factors such as local requirements/law, etc).
The best thing anyone can do for major projects like this is to get quite a few estimates from local licensed workers, to get the cost down. It's usually a good idea to also get 1-2+ estimates from recommended contractors in nearby towns, as well. I'd also recommend befriending and looping in a local investment realtor to eyeball the project to see if they have suggestions, as well. I always connect new or ongoing clients with the top, most reliable, best priced local worker bees, and help throughout projects as needed. I often "catch" early/mid/later issues that need a course correction to get the best results, depending on the property goals, timeline and budget. It's likely that down the road you will do more projects like this, which is great.
I'm sincerely relieved you are going with licensed subs. Out of curiosity, what do you think your reno cost will hit, by the end of the project? Or too early to tell?
Keep it rolling and go get 'em! Here's to a great year for all of us.
Houston, TX · Member since 2011 · 118 posts · 70 votes
4y
Right now I would budget anywhere from 55 to 65/sf. This would be a total gut. New everything. This is if you GC the job yourself. Add 20%+ to that, if you are hiring a GC.
Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
4y
@Michael Fitzgibbon I hope you are able to get this done within your budget! Please let us know what it comes out to, that will help out people in the future when they approach a project this size.....