Effect of Pandemic on Note Business (Medium and Long Term)

Effect of Pandemic on Note Business (Medium and Long Term)

Lender · Ladera Ranch, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes

What are the medium and long term effects of the pandemic on the note business?

My thoughts:

Our business is not going away. There were lots of reasons this was a good business before and there will be for the future. During the times of fear and panic, it's easy to get nervous about the future. I have a friend who's in sales for solar panels. If we go into recession, he is right to worry about the future of solar in the next year or two.

For note investors, the same problems that existed before with non performing notes are still there. If anything, a recession will push more loans into default and make more product available. Some issues to think about:

1. Government interventions

    a. Temporary Bans on Foreclosures and Evictions: we are in unusual times that will result in unusual government interventions. We'll have to be flexible and evaluate coming decisions so that we can evaluate and make the best decisions for our businesses. For the next month or two or whatever time we as a society need to transition to a new normal, to overcome this initial fear, I'm in favor of keeping everyone in place.

Regardless of how borrowers have acted in the past, they are still human beings and we all need to stick together, practice social distancing to "flatten the curve" until things settle down. I'm ok with postponing lockouts. I'd prefer that foreclosures and eviction hearings move forward so that everything progresses but we can stop short of the lock outs for now.

However, how will the public and government respond? New York and San Francisco are already talking about banning evictions. How long will they ban them for? Are foreclosures next? Something we all have to think about.

b. Government bail outs, cash infusions, assistance: If the government provides assistance in various forms, this should help borrowers make payments on their loans. Good for the short term, most definitely. How long will it last? Good for the medium term?

2. Recession: Most people talk about recession for at least a couple of quarters. Without including government intervention, I would prepare for more loan defaults, the potential for real estate values to drop, and less capital that investors are willing to make into riskier investments. Do non performing notes count as "risky?" Depends on your viewpoint, I suppose....

It makes sense for investors to anticipate that we're going into a recession soon and to adjust your business model accordingly.

3. The Way People Do Business: one of the biggest implications we might face is the change in how others do business. As note investors, we're already used to working from an office. We typically communicate with vendors and colleagues primarily via phone and e-mail. Things aren't so different this week for me than it was last month.

I read an article last week that stated that the pandemic will accelerate the move of a significant part of the work force to working remotely from home. This transition was already happening before, is rapidly becoming the new normal for a large number of people, and will likely not change back once the crisis is over. It made a lot of sense to me.

Will it be easier for our vendors or harder? What things will be easier and what will be harder?

I'm sure I missed a lot of other things but these were the immediate ones that popped out at me. Very curious and interested to hear from others on this topic......

5Reply
36 views

Most Popular Reply

Dion DePaoliPro Member
Real Estate Broker · Northwest Indiana, IN · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
6y

It's interesting to see how the conversation in this thread will evolve over time.  So much has changed in the last two weeks and I am sure more happen as we roll forward.

In my opinion, and glimpsing back at the past recession, to which this is "similar" but not the same.  The hierarchy of impact seems to be a bit different with rippling waves eventually crossing everyone's path.

So far, I have seen Non-QM capital start to dry up.  There is already a pretty sizable discount pushing 15% from the market price 3 weeks ago.  Notable driving forces on that are ability to repay due to unemployment and other direct affects of the pandemic and extension risk.  Capitalization rates and return expectations will have to rise.  We will see interest rates increase in the near term which is going to be problematic for some of the recent paper that is looking for an investor.

Warehouse lines will get squeezed and shut down.  There has already been a series of redemption requests in many funds.  This is going to impact longer amortized loans and even the short term folks.  I have been seeing some private/hard money short term loans looking for investors so the originator can get the loan off their line.  As with anything, those folks who had a tighter set of underwriting may feel safer with their borrowers than others.  However, eventually, I think everyone will experience a credit crunch as we should expect values to start to decline in the near term.  How the haircut will be shared or allocated, if at all, will be told soon enough.

Nonperforming paper is in a pricing limbo, obviously the moratorium is affecting that market. We know HUD has came out with direction for forbearance for FHA (90 days) and Fannie/Freddie (12 months) it's not clear if that forbearance can be applied, by mandate or judicial argument, over loans in default prior to the last 2 weeks. With both of those situations lingering the larger servicers who have a large chunk of securitized loans will have some 'massive' and I emphasize "massive" cash problems. The bondholders get their payment and the servicer foots that advance bill while still having to capitalize collections. Couple that with now uncertain default remedy timelines due to the moratorium on foreclosure, eviction along with cash for keys - we can't be certain when and how we can displace the borrowers nor are we sure the forbearance is not just a longer drive to the same danger zone.

When this all happened in the previous recession pricing loans of all kinds was very tough.  Much of that pricing was dictated by the buyer as the seller's needed the cash.  However, at this stage, we have a bit of an issue where seller's should dump to get their 'potentially' highest price but buyers don't want to buy to much and end up with negative equity due to a decline in real estate values or get hit with extension risk buying in below prevail market rates and returns.

So I think we will see inventory circulating and may very well see the same inventory a couple of times before it finds an executable market price.  Deeper discounts will emerge and par and premium will be bad words once again.  That said, there are still some plans of attack that can be deployed to exploit what is going to be a complicated mess.

See this reply in the discussion

46 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • Dion DePaoliPro Member
    Real Estate Broker · Northwest Indiana, IN · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    Yea, a Zoom call is good. I will set something up next week and post some details with some basic topics.

    I like it!!

    Stay tune I will call you both out and we can go from there.

    Stay healthy and stay safe.

    DD

  • Investor · Fort Lauderdale, FL · Member since 2014 · 24 posts · 20 votes
    6y

    @Dion DePaoli I am interested in joining the calls too if you don't mind having a newcomer. Although I'm not currently invested in notes, maybe my experience in corporate law and working with private equity clients can provide value at some point to the discussion. 

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Dion DePaoli:

    Yea, a Zoom call is good. I will set something up next week and post some details with some basic topics.

    I like it!!

    Stay tune I will call you both out and we can go from there.

    Stay healthy and stay safe.

    DD

    Genius idea  mastermind zoom calls or conference calls.  I am in for this one.  I think there are going to be some pretty stunning opportunities in the Non owner occ/ commercial arena.  

  • Investor · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2012 · 97 posts · 23 votes
    6y

    It is very unfortunate that the real estate downturn had to come about because of some global virus. But here in Texas I have been saying for a couple of years something will happen. Our markets have been ridiculously high. I've been hoarding my cash. I'm a note buyer (P, NP, reP) & I try to help my borrowers stay in their home. This is a crazy time with so many that are or will be out of work, the debt going beyond belief (thanks we get to pass that down to our grand kids faster now), and who knows what else will happen. It is what it is. We must work together. Stay healthy everyone.

  • Investor · Kingston, WA · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    Well as Deepak Chopra said "every problem contains the seed of opportunity" - and the seeds from this event are going to arrive much sooner than expected. 

  • Steve HodgdonPro Member
    Investor · Novato, CA · Member since 2015 · 432 posts · 321 votes
    6y

    @Dion DePaoli @Bob Malecki @Jay Hinrichs @Bob Berland  @Andy Mirza @Chris Seveney   In, of course. I can bring weekly data from our unsecured book. A glimpse in real time of requests for forbearance, missed payments of 1300 borrowers. You say "there are only 12 days a year in mortgages". So deterioration comes slower than in a mortgage portfolio. 

  • Lender · Lincolnshire, IL · Member since 2017 · 34 posts · 9 votes
    6y

    @Steve Hodgdon @Dion DePaoli @Bob Malecki @Jay Hinrichs @Andy Mirza @Chris Seveney 

    Steve- Im in - Dion long time, Jay still waiting to do that dinner here in Chicago!

    Good to see all you note investors and would love to jump on a zoom call!

    Best,

    Bob

  • Encinitas, CA · Member since 2011 · 191 posts · 252 votes
    6y

    I'm in for the call. Thanks!

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Dion DePaoli:


    OK, cool stuff guys.  If anything we will be a horrible garage band.
    Meeting is open to anyone who wants to attend.  
    @Andy Mirza, @Steve Hodgdon, @Jay Hinrichs @Rob K. @Bob Berland @Bob Malecki @Zach Griffin

    Meeting Information?
    I setup a meeting for this Tuesday April 7, 2020 at 3 PM CST.  (4PM EST / 1PM PST)

    Topic: Distressed Asset Master Mind Meeting (Open Attendance)
    Time: Apr 7, 2020 03:00 PM Central Time (US and Canada)

    Join Zoom Meeting
    https://us04web.zoom.us/j/4086...

    Meeting ID: 408 692 996
    Password: 028702

    I reserved the room for 2 hours but I think we can get in and out within an hour and change.  But just in case.

    Topics:
    1.  Introduction - Who are you with brief business bio, if any, and any involvement with distressed assets this far? (All Call Members)
    2.  What might be similar to last recession - so far and potential what's coming?
    3.  Insights into current market activity - what are or have you seen since March 13, 2020 (Day 0)
    4.  Price, execution and disposition hurdles and expectations
    5.  How do we all help each other - trade opportunities, other service oppurtunties
    6.  What are we initially not talking about?
    7.  Concepts for next call?

    I will try and collect call names, emails and phone numbers for everyone and publish a roster so post call we can all communicate as desired.  If you want to email me your information in advance I will start the roster now.  Most of you I think I already have information but just do it for the sake of not missing anyone.  My email is [derp, derp] - I think that is allowed in a forum - it is not.  If you do not already have my Gmail just send me a message here.  I will email all attendees the morning of the meeting and we can collect them post meeting too.

    As I mentioned, feel free to share this with anyone you deem fit.  It is an open call.  
    Let's see how we can turn this lemon juice into a lemonade stand.

    Thanks Dion  sounds like a good use of time and will look forward to learning new concepts etc.

  • Real Estate Broker · Bellingham, WA · Member since 2018 · 27 posts · 0 votes
    6y

    Thank you @Dion DePaoli for your generosity and invite. I am looking forward to participating in the video call in an observer/learner capacity. I'll send over the info you requested. Enjoy today. dalia de Jesus, Sound Real Assets, LLC

  • Lender · Ladera Ranch, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    @Nic DeAngelo Scroll up for a couple of posts and you'll see the link

  • Investor · Baltimore County, MD · Member since 2014 · 466 posts · 438 votes
    6y

    @Dion DePaoli I was unable to make the call but look forward to any takeaways you all you be willing to share. Thanks! 

  • Dion DePaoliPro Member
    Real Estate Broker · Northwest Indiana, IN · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    @Jamie Bateman

    I added you to the roster minus your phone number.  We recorded it and will use the roster to setup next call in 2 weeks.

  • Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2013 · 68 posts · 15 votes
    6y

    @Dion DePaoli , I was also unable to attend the call .  Could you please add me to the roster ?  Thanks

  • Dion DePaoliPro Member
    Real Estate Broker · Northwest Indiana, IN · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    @Mark Gustafson can you PM me your email, phone and company name if any?

  • Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2013 · 68 posts · 15 votes
    6y

    @Dion DePaoli , I just sent you a PM.   Thanks !

  • Member since 2020 · 1 post · 0 votes
    6y

    @Dion DePaoli - I am very new here, but I am very interested in Note investing, and am trying to learn as much as I can right now. I would love to join your next zoom call to listen and learn if that's possible.

Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.