Out of State investing does not work. With very few exceptions.

Out of State investing does not work. With very few exceptions.

Investor · Milwaukee - Mequon, WI · Member since 2010 · 5k+ posts · 7k+ votes

You've been sold a pipe dream. I get it. Finding deals has become a lot harder in recent years, which leaves a lot of people frustrated and looking for alternatives. And because the grass always looks greener on the other side, you are looking to invest OOS. Because the grass always looks greener on the other side.

Investors are supposed to be good at math, but nobody is talking about how the math is impacted by not being local. 

Anything you do remote is harder and costs more. There is a cost burden that comes with OOS investing. I would say that is at least 10%-20% on everything. In some cases, it's hard cost, in some cases soft cost or just inefficiencies. You will on average pay more for the same deal, you have to hire a GC instead of just subs, your contractors may charge you a little more, order too much material or make mistakes you would have caught, if you would have been on the job at least 3 times a week (like I do). Every service call is more expensive and it will take longer to rent it out. The quality of the tenants is lower, simply because nobody watches your money like you do.

The book you have probably read about OOS investing tells you to get three quotes from three contractors. Sounds easy enough. Until you find out how hard it actually is to find just one contractor who has time and is willing to spend half a day walking your property and giving you a "free" estimate. We have a contractor shortage. The good ones don't even answer their phone if they don't know the number. It's these little things that sound so easy and reasonable in that book, until you try to do it.

So when does it make sense to invest OOS? 

In my opinion, you have to find an economic delta that is large enough to make it worth while the OOS premium.  If you live in Chicago, investing in Milwaukee does not make economic sense. Milwaukee is a slightly better market and you are less than 2 hours away, but it's still remote and the small market advantage in the end not worth paying the OOS premium. Keep your home field advantage. If you work in tech in CA or in finance in NY, it might be worth it to go OOS. Your income is higher and local real estate is absurdly expensive. The economic delta is big enough to offset the additional cost. 

Elon Musk calls that first principle thinking, you could just call it common sense.

The absolute worst case scenario are OOS investors hunting for bargain deals in the hood. Because they don't understand. They buy a 100-year-old house at half the median price that has a ton of overdue capex. They hire a cheap PM and ask them to keep the rehab budget under 10k. And then they can't find a tenant. Or just a really bad tenant who trashes the place. They get in trouble with the city, because their house is so bad the city issues work orders or fines them for garbage in the front yard (like a mattress or tires - often dumped by someone else not even living there). 

Now the OOS investor finds out that reality does not match the spreadsheet. Perhaps the worst part is when they make the local news and give all investors a bad name, because the press forgets to mention that the absentee owner has not seen the property in years - and it's just bad press for landlords in general - and soon enough local politicians start calling for more regulations..

Based on my own investing experience for over 15 years in Milwaukee I feel in general that it is always best to buy the best quality real estate investment you can afford at the time. Ask me how I know! That is true if you are local, but even more important if you invest remote and every little step is harder and or more expensive.

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Investor · NV and CA · Member since 2016 · 374 posts · 227 votes
1y

@Marcus Auerbach- I have to say I don't entirely agree.  I've been investing in the Midwest from the west coast since 2017.  I have high quality tradespeople who do work at low cost.  My tenants are high quality.  When I need a contractor, I have my real estate agent bring in a contractor she's worked with before and trusts.  They can be more expensive but it's not always the best idea to get the cheapest contractor.  

Maybe I say this because I'm lucky to have partnered with an agent who is trustworthy.  There are certainly agents out there who only want to earn a transaction and do not want to build a business relationship.  My agent has brought forth several connections that have been valuable over the years.  I've bought several properties through her sight unseen.  

The advantage of investing remotely is that it creates far less of a time commitment on my part.  I can still work my W-2 and don't have to go out visiting several properties.  Rather, my agent checks out the property, provides about 40 pictures, and a rehab cost estimate.  I then make an offer based upon the data I have.  

I do agree with you that OOS investing only makes sense if you live in an expensive area and are investing in a much less expensive area.  If you buy a $1MM property in your expensive local market and something goes seriously wrong with it, that's a much bigger deal that something going wrong with a $150k property OOS.  And buying in good neighborhoods OOS is important as well.

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  • Investor · NV and CA · Member since 2016 · 374 posts · 227 votes
    1y

    @Marcus Auerbach- I have to say I don't entirely agree.  I've been investing in the Midwest from the west coast since 2017.  I have high quality tradespeople who do work at low cost.  My tenants are high quality.  When I need a contractor, I have my real estate agent bring in a contractor she's worked with before and trusts.  They can be more expensive but it's not always the best idea to get the cheapest contractor.  

    Maybe I say this because I'm lucky to have partnered with an agent who is trustworthy.  There are certainly agents out there who only want to earn a transaction and do not want to build a business relationship.  My agent has brought forth several connections that have been valuable over the years.  I've bought several properties through her sight unseen.  

    The advantage of investing remotely is that it creates far less of a time commitment on my part.  I can still work my W-2 and don't have to go out visiting several properties.  Rather, my agent checks out the property, provides about 40 pictures, and a rehab cost estimate.  I then make an offer based upon the data I have.  

    I do agree with you that OOS investing only makes sense if you live in an expensive area and are investing in a much less expensive area.  If you buy a $1MM property in your expensive local market and something goes seriously wrong with it, that's a much bigger deal that something going wrong with a $150k property OOS.  And buying in good neighborhoods OOS is important as well.

    • Member since 2019 · 3 posts · 0 votes
      1y
      Quote from @Ryan Fox:

      @Marcus Auerbach- I have to say I don't entirely agree.  I've been investing in the Midwest from the west coast since 2017.  I have high quality tradespeople who do work at low cost.  My tenants are high quality.  When I need a contractor, I have my real estate agent bring in a contractor she's worked with before and trusts.  They can be more expensive but it's not always the best idea to get the cheapest contractor.  

      Maybe I say this because I'm lucky to have partnered with an agent who is trustworthy.  There are certainly agents out there who only want to earn a transaction and do not want to build a business relationship.  My agent has brought forth several connections that have been valuable over the years.  I've bought several properties through her sight unseen.  

      The advantage of investing remotely is that it creates far less of a time commitment on my part.  I can still work my W-2 and don't have to go out visiting several properties.  Rather, my agent checks out the property, provides about 40 pictures, and a rehab cost estimate.  I then make an offer based upon the data I have.  

      I do agree with you that OOS investing only makes sense if you live in an expensive area and are investing in a much less expensive area.  If you buy a $1MM property in your expensive local market and something goes seriously wrong with it, that's a much bigger deal that something going wrong with a $150k property OOS.  And buying in good neighborhoods OOS is important as well.


       I agree with you as well. I live in Washington State and have a property in Vegas. Working on adding 1 more in Vegas again but numbers aren't great. So I'm looking elsewhere. Do you use PM for all your out of state rentals?

    • Alan AsriantsBusiness Member
      Real Estate Agent · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Ryan Fox:

      @Marcus Auerbach- I have to say I don't entirely agree.  I've been investing in the Midwest from the west coast since 2017.  I have high quality tradespeople who do work at low cost.  My tenants are high quality.  When I need a contractor, I have my real estate agent bring in a contractor she's worked with before and trusts.  They can be more expensive but it's not always the best idea to get the cheapest contractor.  

      Maybe I say this because I'm lucky to have partnered with an agent who is trustworthy.  There are certainly agents out there who only want to earn a transaction and do not want to build a business relationship.  My agent has brought forth several connections that have been valuable over the years.  I've bought several properties through her sight unseen.  

      The advantage of investing remotely is that it creates far less of a time commitment on my part.  I can still work my W-2 and don't have to go out visiting several properties.  Rather, my agent checks out the property, provides about 40 pictures, and a rehab cost estimate.  I then make an offer based upon the data I have.  

      I do agree with you that OOS investing only makes sense if you live in an expensive area and are investing in a much less expensive area.  If you buy a $1MM property in your expensive local market and something goes seriously wrong with it, that's a much bigger deal that something going wrong with a $150k property OOS.  And buying in good neighborhoods OOS is important as well.

       I have 2 clients who constantly buy out of state and I have referred them great contractors and even check in on their properties from time to time. 

      The reason this relationsip works is becasue:

      1. they have an agent that actually cares, has experience, and will point them in the right direction (didn't mean to pat myself on the back too much, but you get the point)

      2. I do not advise them to buy crappy real estate. They buy B class RE, that is not overdue on cap ex - unless the values make sense to do such a large scale reno. 

      3. they have family in the area that also help out and know the areas - also can check on contractor work 

      What you likely have is combination of some of those things in your OOS strategy. What Marcus is alluding to are the countless of newer investors who just finished a $15k course about buying the crappiest section 8 rentals in brimingham AL. that is a recipe for disaster. 

      Its hard to find an agent to trust, and knowing the area really helps you understand if the person you are speaking to is just spewing BS or giving you good advice. Awesome good luck making sure that the contractor is doing a 100% solid job. I'm ready to buy a good amount of money that they cut a bunch of corners. 

      If you used to live in a more affordable area and now moved to a more expensive one, maybe you have enough connections to go back to that market. 

      Alan Asriants - New Century Real Estate 591 Reviews
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    • Real Estate Agent · Sisters, OR · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Ryan Fox:

      @Marcus Auerbach- I have to say I don't entirely agree.  I've been investing in the Midwest from the west coast since 2017.  I have high quality tradespeople who do work at low cost.  My tenants are high quality.  When I need a contractor, I have my real estate agent bring in a contractor she's worked with before and trusts.  They can be more expensive but it's not always the best idea to get the cheapest contractor.  

      Maybe I say this because I'm lucky to have partnered with an agent who is trustworthy.  There are certainly agents out there who only want to earn a transaction and do not want to build a business relationship.  My agent has brought forth several connections that have been valuable over the years.  I've bought several properties through her sight unseen.  

      The advantage of investing remotely is that it creates far less of a time commitment on my part.  I can still work my W-2 and don't have to go out visiting several properties.  Rather, my agent checks out the property, provides about 40 pictures, and a rehab cost estimate.  I then make an offer based upon the data I have.  

      I do agree with you that OOS investing only makes sense if you live in an expensive area and are investing in a much less expensive area.  If you buy a $1MM property in your expensive local market and something goes seriously wrong with it, that's a much bigger deal that something going wrong with a $150k property OOS.  And buying in good neighborhoods OOS is important as well.


       You have a realtor with boots on the ground helping you out.  It sounds like you keep buying and she has a financial incentive to keep you happy.  For someone buying only one or two properties do you think they could find someone that has a vested interest in keeping them happy, like you have?

    • Investor · NV and CA · Member since 2016 · 374 posts · 227 votes
      1y
      Quote from @Eric Bilderback:
      Quote from @Ryan Fox:

      @Marcus Auerbach- I have to say I don't entirely agree.  I've been investing in the Midwest from the west coast since 2017.  I have high quality tradespeople who do work at low cost.  My tenants are high quality.  When I need a contractor, I have my real estate agent bring in a contractor she's worked with before and trusts.  They can be more expensive but it's not always the best idea to get the cheapest contractor.  

      Maybe I say this because I'm lucky to have partnered with an agent who is trustworthy.  There are certainly agents out there who only want to earn a transaction and do not want to build a business relationship.  My agent has brought forth several connections that have been valuable over the years.  I've bought several properties through her sight unseen.  

      The advantage of investing remotely is that it creates far less of a time commitment on my part.  I can still work my W-2 and don't have to go out visiting several properties.  Rather, my agent checks out the property, provides about 40 pictures, and a rehab cost estimate.  I then make an offer based upon the data I have.  

      I do agree with you that OOS investing only makes sense if you live in an expensive area and are investing in a much less expensive area.  If you buy a $1MM property in your expensive local market and something goes seriously wrong with it, that's a much bigger deal that something going wrong with a $150k property OOS.  And buying in good neighborhoods OOS is important as well.


       You have a realtor with boots on the ground helping you out.  It sounds like you keep buying and she has a financial incentive to keep you happy.  For someone buying only one or two properties do you think they could find someone that has a vested interest in keeping them happy, like you have?

      Yes, I think it's possible.  I don't keep my agent busy 100 percent of the time.  In fact, I haven't bought any properties this year due to various health issues. An investor who only wants to buy 1 or 2 properties may be looking for a proof of concept before they decide to invest more.  From the agent's perspective, I think these types of investors would be just as valuable to them as a repeat buyer.  

    • San Jose, CA · Member since 2014 · 2 posts · 1 vote
      1y

      @Ryan Fox - great positive story. You are lucky to have found the right partner !

  • Investor · Milwaukee - Mequon, WI · Member since 2010 · 5k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    1y

    @Ryan Fox - I am glad to hear it and congratulations! But you are kind of the exception I am talking about in the headline: you live on the west coast and you invest in the midwest, so you have a sufficient economic delta. You understand the value of quality neighborhoods and you have found an agent who is connected to quality contractors. 

    You have also reduced some of the negative effects of not being local by sticking to one area, so you have built up local knowledge. And you are fortunate to have an agent, who is willing and able to function as boots on the ground. (I don't want to call it "lucky", because finding a good agent with contractor connections and investing background usually requires deliberate effort - most agents don't know much about construction). 

    You did not say this, but I assume you did initially spend some time learning that market, getting a feel for which neighborhoods meet your quality requirements and which ones don't. Once you understand a neighborhood and a market, it's rinse and repeat, you don't have to visit every property in person.

  • Jonathan KlemmBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Contractor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2016 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    1y

    What's going on @Marcus Auerbach !!!  Really really great post!  You aren't just saying that so Chicago investors stop invesitng in Milwaukee are you lol jk

    Will you work with out of state investors or only local MKE investors?

    I would agree that MOST people's largest advantage is that they have their own boots on the ground and check up on things and meet people face to face.  

     Out of state investing is OF COURSE possible, but if you are trying to do it as your first deal I just 100% agree it's going to be harder all the way around the board and unless you have that economical delta, you are better of investing where you live.

    David Greene made it look easy on BiggerPockets but he also had the BP podcast as leverage and could build a ridiculous team remotely.  He also flew to the area he was investing and met people face to face.  He also got many properties stolen because of some crazy title insurance scam.

    • Investor · Milwaukee - Mequon, WI · Member since 2010 · 5k+ posts · 7k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Jonathan Klemm:

      What's going on @Marcus Auerbach !!!  Really really great post!  You aren't just saying that so Chicago investors stop invesitng in Milwaukee are you lol jk

      Will you work with out of state investors or only local MKE investors?

      I would agree that MOST people's largest advantage is that they have their own boots on the ground and check up on things and meet people face to face.  

       Out of state investing is OF COURSE possible, but if you are trying to do it as your first deal I just 100% agree it's going to be harder all the way around the board and unless you have that economical delta, you are better of investing where you live.

      David Greene made it look easy on BiggerPockets but he also had the BP podcast as leverage and could build a ridiculous team remotely.  He also flew to the area he was investing and met people face to face.  He also got many properties stolen because of some crazy title insurance scam.


      Yes, I heard David Green talk about it, it was a title scam based on a website glitch if I remember correctly. Was it like 50 properties? I believe he got them back eventually. I looked into it and it varies State to State, fortunately Wisconsin is one of the harder ones to steal a title. That's just another example of one of the many things you won't know, especially if you invest in multiple states for "diversification". That's another mistake I forgot to mention: you never build any synergies for example, with PM's - if you buy all over the map. I am talking about SF and small MF. Different story if you are buying 100+ unit buildings..

      Of course OOS investing is possible and in some cases it makes sense - if done right.

      My team does work with OOS investors, but we have learned how to coach clients to have sustained success and not just one deal. Step one is always to come to Milwaukee and see some neighborhoods and some listings together, so we can get on the same page. It is crazy how many people want to do this fully remote. I trust my own judgement on Milwaukee, but as an OOS investor you have to see for yourself to really understand the tenant pool and the property conditions in a 60 or 100 year old neighborhood. Skipping this step is a deadly sin IMO, capex can quickly exceed cash flow and 3 years in you find out you have a money pit on your hand, which on top of that is not even easy to sell!

      The other issue is that risk and price have an inverse relationship: new investors are often constrained with capital (like most of us were when we started) and then there is the notion that it is somehow less risky to buy a cheaper property. I have made that very mistake when I bought my first duplex in 2008. And my agent was very nice, but zero help. It's stock market thinking applied to real estate: limit you invested $ amount to curb risk. 

      Once you understand cap rates, you understand why investors pay a lot more for a quality low-risk asset with a lower, but safer return. And high risk distressed assets in the hood offer really good returns (high cap rates), but are probably not where you want to start as a new investor AND remote. Thats a bad combo.

      The problem is that the notion of "finding a better deal" is driving noobs literally to those high risk investments. Combine that with the lack of knowledge that comes with OOS investing and you have a reciepie for disaster.. 

    • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
      Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Jonathan Klemm:

      What's going on @Marcus Auerbach !!!  Really really great post!  You aren't just saying that so Chicago investors stop invesitng in Milwaukee are you lol jk

      Will you work with out of state investors or only local MKE investors?

      I would agree that MOST people's largest advantage is that they have their own boots on the ground and check up on things and meet people face to face.  

       Out of state investing is OF COURSE possible, but if you are trying to do it as your first deal I just 100% agree it's going to be harder all the way around the board and unless you have that economical delta, you are better of investing where you live.

      David Greene made it look easy on BiggerPockets but he also had the BP podcast as leverage and could build a ridiculous team remotely.  He also flew to the area he was investing and met people face to face.  He also got many properties stolen because of some crazy title insurance scam.


      can you elaborate on said title insurance scam and how properties can be stolen.. ??? Agree the book that was written while well intended I suspect many lost their@$$ thinking how easy it could be to remote rehab and put together this dream team LOL.. It can happen but folks can just as easily get royally fubared. And when your starting out you just dont know what you dont know regardless of what you read in a book.
    • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
      Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Marcus Auerbach:
      Quote from @Jonathan Klemm:

      What's going on @Marcus Auerbach !!!  Really really great post!  You aren't just saying that so Chicago investors stop invesitng in Milwaukee are you lol jk

      Will you work with out of state investors or only local MKE investors?

      I would agree that MOST people's largest advantage is that they have their own boots on the ground and check up on things and meet people face to face.  

       Out of state investing is OF COURSE possible, but if you are trying to do it as your first deal I just 100% agree it's going to be harder all the way around the board and unless you have that economical delta, you are better of investing where you live.

      David Greene made it look easy on BiggerPockets but he also had the BP podcast as leverage and could build a ridiculous team remotely.  He also flew to the area he was investing and met people face to face.  He also got many properties stolen because of some crazy title insurance scam.


      Yes, I heard David Green talk about it, it was a title scam based on a website glitch if I remember correctly. Was it like 50 properties? I believe he got them back eventually. I looked into it and it varies State to State, fortunately Wisconsin is one of the harder ones to steal a title. That's just another example of one of the many things you won't know, especially if you invest in multiple states for "diversification". That's another mistake I forgot to mention: you never build any synergies for example, with PM's - if you buy all over the map. I am talking about SF and small MF. Different story if you are buying 100+ unit buildings..

      Of course OOS investing is possible and in some cases it makes sense - if done right.

      My team does work with OOS investors, but we have learned how to coach clients to have sustained success and not just one deal. Step one is always to come to Milwaukee and see some neighborhoods and some listings together, so we can get on the same page. It is crazy how many people want to do this fully remote. I trust my own judgement on Milwaukee, but as an OOS investor you have to see for yourself to really understand the tenant pool and the property conditions in a 60 or 100 year old neighborhood. Skipping this step is a deadly sin IMO, capex can quickly exceed cash flow and 3 years in you find out you have a money pit on your hand, which on top of that is not even easy to sell!

      The other issue is that risk and price have an inverse relationship: new investors are often constrained with capital (like most of us were when we started) and then there is the notion that it is somehow less risky to buy a cheaper property. I have made that very mistake when I bought my first duplex in 2008. And my agent was very nice, but zero help. It's stock market thinking applied to real estate: limit you invested $ amount to curb risk. 

      Once you understand cap rates, you understand why investors pay a lot more for a quality low-risk asset with a lower, but safer return. And high risk distressed assets in the hood offer really good returns (high cap rates), but are probably not where you want to start as a new investor AND remote. Thats a bad combo.

      The problem is that the notion of "finding a better deal" is driving noobs literally to those high risk investments. Combine that with the lack of knowledge that comes with OOS investing and you have a reciepie for disaster.. 


      Good point Marcus I dont think that is understood or talked about enough. Real Estate rentals no matter where they are price for tenant risk.. Full Stop. And if one does not understand what tenant risk is they need to talk to local experts. 
    • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
      Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Marcus Auerbach:
      Quote from @Jonathan Klemm:

      What's going on @Marcus Auerbach !!!  Really really great post!  You aren't just saying that so Chicago investors stop invesitng in Milwaukee are you lol jk

      Will you work with out of state investors or only local MKE investors?

      I would agree that MOST people's largest advantage is that they have their own boots on the ground and check up on things and meet people face to face.  

       Out of state investing is OF COURSE possible, but if you are trying to do it as your first deal I just 100% agree it's going to be harder all the way around the board and unless you have that economical delta, you are better of investing where you live.

      David Greene made it look easy on BiggerPockets but he also had the BP podcast as leverage and could build a ridiculous team remotely.  He also flew to the area he was investing and met people face to face.  He also got many properties stolen because of some crazy title insurance scam.


      Yes, I heard David Green talk about it, it was a title scam based on a website glitch if I remember correctly. Was it like 50 properties? I believe he got them back eventually. I looked into it and it varies State to State, fortunately Wisconsin is one of the harder ones to steal a title. That's just another example of one of the many things you won't know, especially if you invest in multiple states for "diversification". That's another mistake I forgot to mention: you never build any synergies for example, with PM's - if you buy all over the map. I am talking about SF and small MF. Different story if you are buying 100+ unit buildings..

      Of course OOS investing is possible and in some cases it makes sense - if done right.

      My team does work with OOS investors, but we have learned how to coach clients to have sustained success and not just one deal. Step one is always to come to Milwaukee and see some neighborhoods and some listings together, so we can get on the same page. It is crazy how many people want to do this fully remote. I trust my own judgement on Milwaukee, but as an OOS investor you have to see for yourself to really understand the tenant pool and the property conditions in a 60 or 100 year old neighborhood. Skipping this step is a deadly sin IMO, capex can quickly exceed cash flow and 3 years in you find out you have a money pit on your hand, which on top of that is not even easy to sell!

      The other issue is that risk and price have an inverse relationship: new investors are often constrained with capital (like most of us were when we started) and then there is the notion that it is somehow less risky to buy a cheaper property. I have made that very mistake when I bought my first duplex in 2008. And my agent was very nice, but zero help. It's stock market thinking applied to real estate: limit you invested $ amount to curb risk. 

      Once you understand cap rates, you understand why investors pay a lot more for a quality low-risk asset with a lower, but safer return. And high risk distressed assets in the hood offer really good returns (high cap rates), but are probably not where you want to start as a new investor AND remote. Thats a bad combo.

      The problem is that the notion of "finding a better deal" is driving noobs literally to those high risk investments. Combine that with the lack of knowledge that comes with OOS investing and you have a reciepie for disaster.. 


      AS to title company and title insurance.. One thing I notice as I do deals in probably 20 different states.. unlike our west coast title companies ( and this is especially true with attorney closing states) out west Title companies just automatically send you the prelim title report or title commitment depending on the vernacular they use.. and you get this usually within 3 to 5 days of opening escrow and your asked to review and approve it. 

      In other states I have to insist on getting it.. Many of the attorney states they will just say title is clear if asked and wont even say that if you don't ask and many folks simply don't know to ask and I suspect Green was not Green enough to ask for and review title commitment.. But in many cases I have to question the title myself and get them to remove things and or explain things that are unique to the areas.  I have had 3 claims in the last 3 years One i had to bring in my lawyer to get them to pay. And many dont understand that if your paying cash and buying through a wholesaler the amount you pay the wholesaler is not covered if you have bad title and have to get paid off so thats why I wont fund deals with big assignemnt fees no title insurance.
  • Investor · NV and CA · Member since 2016 · 374 posts · 227 votes
    1y

    @Marcus Auerbach- Yes, I did visit and research each of the markets I chose to invest in.  Most of my investing has been in Kansas City.  There's a lot of high-quality suburbia that doesn't change much from block to block in that market.

  • Realtor · Boulder, CO · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    1y

    Nobody should ever invest out of state. Unless that state is Colorado. 

    • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
      Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Steve K.:

      Nobody should ever invest out of state. Unless that state is Colorado. 


      WE are flat killing it in Colorado so I agree 100%.. 
    • Developer · Moscow Idaho · Member since 2024 · 224 posts · 143 votes
      1y
      Quote from @Steve K.:

      Nobody should ever invest out of state. Unless that state is Colorado. 


       Well, other than Idaho?  I am sitting in Boulder right now.  Meet for a beer tomorrow and bring me a deal.   Making numbers work in Bouder or anywhere in CO. maybe Aurora is tough, but who wants to go to Aurora?  I am going to the pub for a cheeseburger.   

  • Austin WolffPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2024 · 139 posts · 134 votes
    1y

    Thank you for the disclaimer on "unless you live in CA or NY." Keep in mind at least 58 million people live in one of these states. A subset of those will be investors, and that's a lot of investors who may need to invest OOS.

    BiggerPockets
    • Investor · Milwaukee - Mequon, WI · Member since 2010 · 5k+ posts · 7k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Austin Wolff:

      Thank you for the disclaimer on "unless you live in CA or NY." Keep in mind at least 58 million people live in one of these states. A subset of those will be investors, and that's a lot of investors who may need to invest OOS.

      Austin I get your point, of course NY&CA are just an example. Maybe a more sensible title would have been: "why OOS investing is harder than you think." It comes with a 10-20% built-in expense/handicap/inefficency and people often seem to forget about that. Yet, in some cases it is still worth it because the difference makes up for it (if you do it the right way).

      What does not make sense is for someone who lives in Kansas, Atlanta or even Chicago to invest in Milwaukee - the markets are too similar, the grass only looks greener. It is better to keep the home-field advantage.  People are always surprised when I tell them that, because they feel I am turning business away. Sometimes, I get my favorite "oh, I don't think we are a good fit for each other" and they call another agent, who is happy to sell them a property.

    • Austin WolffPro Member
      Rental Property Investor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2024 · 139 posts · 134 votes
      1y
      Quote from @Marcus Auerbach:
      Quote from @Austin Wolff:

      Thank you for the disclaimer on "unless you live in CA or NY." Keep in mind at least 58 million people live in one of these states. A subset of those will be investors, and that's a lot of investors who may need to invest OOS.

      Austin I get your point, of course NY&CA are just an example. Maybe a more sensible title would have been: "why OOS investing is harder than you think." It comes with a 10-20% built-in expense/handicap/inefficency and people often seem to forget about that. Yet, in some cases it is still worth it because the difference makes up for it (if you do it the right way).

      What does not make sense is for someone who lives in Kansas, Atlanta or even Chicago to invest in Milwaukee - the markets are too similar, the grass only looks greener. It is better to keep the home-field advantage.  People are always surprised when I tell them that, because they feel I am turning business away. Sometimes, I get my favorite "oh, I don't think we are a good fit for each other" and they call another agent, who is happy to sell them a property.


       Definitely agreed. Going from one city in the midwest or the south to another seems nonsensical to me.

      BiggerPockets
  • Member since 2020 · 217 posts · 167 votes
    1y

    If you can't walk to it, it's too far. Stay local.

    • Realtor · Boulder, CO · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 5k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Steve Smith:

      If you can't walk to it, it's too far. Stay local.


       My criteria used to be max 1 hour drive. I’ve shortened it to 20 minutes now. If the trend continues I’ll be in your camp soon. 

    • Austin WolffPro Member
      Rental Property Investor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2024 · 139 posts · 134 votes
      1y
      Quote from @Steve Smith:

      If you can't walk to it, it's too far. Stay local.


      "Walking for dollars"

      BiggerPockets
  • Investor · Milwaukee - Mequon, WI · Member since 2010 · 5k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    1y

    We are also in camp "20 min radius" and a lot of them are so close together that it's easy to pull a contractor from a job on one house and fix a door handle on another on the way home.

  • Brie SchmidtBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2013 · 6k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    1y

    You can listen to my BP podcast #78 or #132 about my beginning journey investing out of state and I agree 100% with @Marcus Auerbach which is why I sold my properties

    • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
      Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Brie Schmidt:

      You can listen to my BP podcast #78 or #132 about my beginning journey investing out of state and I agree 100% with @Marcus Auerbach which is why I sold my properties


      I remember well Brie you and I have some pretty through conversations regarding this and me trying to to be a complete debbie downer :)
    • Brie SchmidtBusiness Member
      Moderator
      Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2013 · 6k+ posts · 5k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
      Quote from @Brie Schmidt:

      You can listen to my BP podcast #78 or #132 about my beginning journey investing out of state and I agree 100% with @Marcus Auerbach which is why I sold my properties


      I remember well Brie you and I have some pretty through conversations regarding this and me trying to to be a complete debbie downer :)

      Lessons were learned, that's for sure. I got lucky because I bought 2014-2016 and sold 2019-2022 so ended up selling them for almost double what I paid for them. I went back and looked at my historical operating numbers and the properties performed at a 9.88% cap rate and a 19.48% CoC

      Then I ran the same scenario using the price I sold it for and it would be a 6% for whoever bought them. 

    • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
      Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Brie Schmidt:
      Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
      Quote from @Brie Schmidt:

      You can listen to my BP podcast #78 or #132 about my beginning journey investing out of state and I agree 100% with @Marcus Auerbach which is why I sold my properties


      I remember well Brie you and I have some pretty through conversations regarding this and me trying to to be a complete debbie downer :)

      Lessons were learned, that's for sure. I got lucky because I bought 2014-2016 and sold 2019-2022 so ended up selling them for almost double what I paid for them. I went back and looked at my historical operating numbers and the properties performed at a 9.88% cap rate and a 19.48% CoC

      Then I ran the same scenario using the price I sold it for and it would be a 6% for whoever bought them. 


      U earned it though not many are as versed as you are at running those types of props that was my main point.. 
  • Rental Property Investor · Brooke Park Drive · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    1y

    Columbus

  • Real Estate Agent · Bel Air, MD · Member since 2022 · 58 posts · 44 votes
    1y

    Very well said. I have found that my OOS or even "out of the area" clients who invested in Baltimore Ciry are all doing quite well because:

    1). While they weren't exactly local, they were close enough (DC/VA area) that they were willing to make the longer drive over and over again to tour houses/neighborhoods themselves. We spend significant time together just having them get familiar with the areas that change dramatically in a block or two. This was a significant time investment on their part and as you noted, is a cost.

    2). They were willing to be patient and have all done very well on the purchase - both in the purchase price and property condition.

    3). Many have other investments up and down the east coast already and were familiar with remote landlording.

    You can add the DC region to your list of coastal areas with investors looking for better markets to get in. Baltimore has a reputation with OOS investors but this is not the city to do it in unless you have your ducks in a row and a great team that can assist you the whole way.

    All that being said, I can't ignore the fact that my investor clients who have purchased in Baltimore have all done quite well, but largely because they went about it the right way.

  • V.G JasonPro Member
    Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    1y

    I would love to invest more local-- been a standstill here in Austin.

    With that said, all but 1 of my investments are OOC and all but 12 are OOS. I have systems in place that help me guide around it. 

    I think OOS is just fine, do your diligence though. Go to the city, stay there a bit. Talk to people at dinner, see what they think of the city. Go to the local juice shop, get a juice talk to the person serving you ask their thoughts of the area. Ask the local gym trainer. Get a feel for what's happening. See what dumb money and smart money is doing in the area. Check the city and county for what's happening and not happening. 

    Visit the hoods, visit the great areas. Visit the up & coming areas. The price of doing this is miniscule relative to the the leverage you're applying to the deal, so consider it a more than fair barrier of entry. 

    It's typical people ditch the diligence--happy to get 80% levered on a house, in a city they've never spent a day in--due to impulse and words. Go verify it and form your own thesis. But like I say, fast solutions have slow problems. 

  • New to Real Estate · NJ (new jersey) · Member since 2019 · 75 posts · 41 votes
    1y

    Love this post!!

    As someone new wanted to invest out of state, this opened up my thinking for sure. As for me I’m located in NJ and this state is very expensive especially when it comes to real estate. Average home is like over 400K minimum in decent areas. Next state over to me would be PA, like Philadelphia and surrounding areas where I can get to under two hours or so. It’s way more affordable compared to NJ. You recommend out of state investing for me being that I’m in NJ?


    • Real Estate Agent · Bel Air, MD · Member since 2022 · 58 posts · 44 votes
      1y
      Quote from @Jonathan Rivera:

      Love this post!!

      As someone new wanted to invest out of state, this opened up my thinking for sure. As for me I’m located in NJ and this state is very expensive especially when it comes to real estate. Average home is like over 400K minimum in decent areas. Next state over to me would be PA, like Philadelphia and surrounding areas where I can get to under two hours or so. It’s way more affordable compared to NJ. You recommend out of state investing for me being that I’m in NJ?



       How far of a drive for you to Baltimore? As I said in my reply earlier, it's a City that I recommend investing time in to learning before you put down the cash on a property. It's not for everyone, but I have had out of area/out of state investors who are doing well with their Baltimore rentals now that they're established and they took the time to learn the area. If that's not a possibility for you, then you may be better off considering something in a closer market, if there is anything at all. If not Philadelphia, how about areas in northern Delaware? Not at all my market and I only practice real estate in MD, but just an idea to consider.

  • John MorganPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Grand Prairie, TX · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    1y

    I self manage 10 SFR out of state and it's easy. I also self manage 19 SFR within a 30 min driving distance to me.

    • Member since 2024 · 4 posts · 3 votes
      1y
      Quote from @John Morgan:

      I self manage 10 SFR out of state and it's easy. I also self manage 19 SFR within a 30 min driving distance to me.

      @John Morgan How or what techniques are you using to self-manage 10 SFR OOS? Please do tell.

    • John MorganPro Member
      Rental Property Investor · Grand Prairie, TX · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Sam Andrews:
      Quote from @John Morgan:

      I self manage 10 SFR out of state and it's easy. I also self manage 19 SFR within a 30 min driving distance to me.

      @John Morgan How or what techniques are you using to self-manage 10 SFR OOS? Please do tell.

      I just wing it. I do my leases and some payments for free with apartments.com. I asked locals for references for handymen. I use Zillow or word of mouth when I have vacancies. I’ve only had 4 vacancies, but found 3 great tenants from my current tenants asking if they knew of anyone needing a place. And listed one house on Zillow. I found a new renter within 4 hours. I cash app my handymen and it’s worked out great. Don’t over think it. Oh, and I keep people in all my rentals under market rent so I rarely have turnovers. I’ve got 29 SFR and this has been my strategy along with investing in C to C+ class hoods. Most of my tenants stay for many years. Turnovers crush profits. Be a good landlord and your tenants will take care of you is what I’ve found. 
    • Investor · Milwaukee - Mequon, WI · Member since 2010 · 5k+ posts · 7k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Sam Andrews:
      Quote from @John Morgan:

      I self manage 10 SFR out of state and it's easy. I also self manage 19 SFR within a 30 min driving distance to me.

      @John Morgan How or what techniques are you using to self-manage 10 SFR OOS? Please do tell.


      If I may comment here: John manages 19 at home, which gives him a solid working knowledge on how to do thast. Apps and websites are not a solution to managing OOS.

      You need a solid process to show units, you can interview, screen and background check applicants online. And you need a good plumber in speed dial, know enough to troubleshoot issues over the phone before you call that plumber and also provide enough business to that plumber, so you get a good rate and priority treatment. Same for a few other trades..

      If you buy a quality property in good repair, you don't have to many maintenance calls in the first place. Half the calls, half the headache, half the cost.

    • Real Estate Agent · Chicago, IL · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @John Morgan:

      I self manage 10 SFR out of state and it's easy. I also self manage 19 SFR within a 30 min driving distance to me.


       Same I manage a 4 unit I only been to twice its so easy. Handyman check. Local realtor to lease it check. Occasionally an issue keys but we do backup sets everytime have someone out. The saving are completely worth it. 

    • Member since 2024 · 4 posts · 3 votes
      1y
      Quote from @Marcus Auerbach:
      Quote from @Sam Andrews:
      Quote from @John Morgan:

      I self manage 10 SFR out of state and it's easy. I also self manage 19 SFR within a 30 min driving distance to me.

      @John Morgan How or what techniques are you using to self-manage 10 SFR OOS? Please do tell.


      If I may comment here: John manages 19 at home, which gives him a solid working knowledge on how to do thast. Apps and websites are not a solution to managing OOS.

      You need a solid process to show units, you can interview, screen and background check applicants online. And you need a good plumber in speed dial, know enough to troubleshoot issues over the phone before you call that plumber and also provide enough business to that plumber, so you get a good rate and priority treatment. Same for a few other trades..

      If you buy a quality property in good repair, you don't have to many maintenance calls in the first place. Half the calls, half the headache, half the cost.

      @Marcus Auerbach Frankly speaking, I couldn't agree with you more about what you said. The problem though is that there are two main things that are a common theme that most OOS or OOC are looking for and that is good cashflow and lower entry point. Because if not for the good cashflow and low entry points, they might as well stay where they are if it was just appreciation they were after. So for most OOS and OOC investor, this strugle is one they must always wrestle with.


  • Realtor · Leawood, KS · Member since 2015 · 4 posts · 4 votes
    1y

    I'd have to say that I don't necessarily agree with this post entirely, as well.  While investing out ot town does present with some different challenges like finding a good agent, good property managers, learning the area that you are investing in,  etc., I've found out of town investing to be similar, or even better at times than investing in town.  I do think it is important to visit the locations where investing prior to investing to get a pulse on the market to better understand the landscape.  To me, the failures of out of town investing is with unengaged investors... which can also apply to in-town investors.

    Many of the same challenges and expenses apply to both types of investing.  If a person doesn't want to manage properties directly, then there is always going to be an expense of a property manager and the challenge of finding a good one.  It may be slighlty more challenging to meet those people if out to town and it may take some trial and errror to find them, but it you do it can be very lucrative.


    The other key is finding a good agent.  In Kansas City Metro as you mention, there are a lot of suburbia areas.  But prices can change significantly by a crossing over one street or city block, by school district.... or by crossing over state line with KC's unique setup of the metro being divided down the middle between MO and KS.  If you dont have an agent that knows those elements and can help you find the right fit to your investing needs, it can be detrimental.  

    Where I agree with you is that I have seen investors come into the midwest, or maybe its better to say lower cost markets, and buy blindly because the cost of entry can appear to be attractive when compared to the coasts.  But then they overspend by not gaining the knowledge of the market where they are investing, failing to learn local rental rates for long and short term rentals, learn where short term rentals are allowed, local rennovation costs, etc.


    So while I agree that out of town investing can come with some some challenges, I dont agree that success is the exception.   The key is to establish processes that limit those pitfalls.

  • Todd AndersonPro Member
    Real Estate Agent · Cape Coral, FL · Member since 2023 · 392 posts · 175 votes
    1y

    @Marcus Auerbach,

    While, I do agree with some of your points about OOS. I don't think that this applies to all asset classes.  In the example you give it sounds like you were looking at value ad or flip situations and I do agree that these are very tough to do from a distance. It's tough to keep good quality. It's tough to keep good timing and it's tough to keep good budget.

    With the investors that I have worked with over the past few years, we have found that OOS in new construction investment properties can be a very easy and profitable way to invest. With this kind of investing, you can work with a specific or a few builders who you can easily vet.  When searching for a property manager, if you're not using a turnkey provider, you can find one that focuses more on the financials.  this is because with new construction, the cost for maintaining the property is vastly lower because all items in the property are new.

    There's also the issue that we normally find better appreciation. Because these properties are normally in better areas where new construction is happening, and the best comparables are new construction, the properties appraise like new construction. This means as building costs go up the value of newer properties goes up.

    There's one other thing about new construction investment properties, and also important for OOS investors.  The investors I work with find it's easier to find tenants for new properties.  They show well, and they're more desirable for tenants. This makes the job for the property manager easier and we find we can get property management at good rates.

    One last benefit at the investors that I have worked with have found, with new construction to keep the builders building they often offer incentives that solve for some of the problems in the market today. We have builders that are able to offer right buy downs that make investing in this market makes sense. They are only able to do this because they are new built. You can't find rate by down to this level on the secondary market.  

    All investing has a risk, and while I agree that the best way to start is to buy something in your backyard and manage it yourself to learn the lessons you need to learn. There are many investors that would like to start and because of their W-2 job, they can't or don't want to manage themselves.  this time of investor I believe OOS is a great option and a fantastic way to build wealth.

    Thanks for the discussion point and any feedback.

  • Travis TimmonsPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Ellsworth, ME · Member since 2021 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    1y

    It worked for me. I have since moved to be local to our short term rentals, but that was driven out of the opportunity of another live in flip + development and building of additional cabins on a property that we already bought and planned to fix up anyway. 

    I lived in Houston at the time and didn't love the prospects of investing there - bad short term market as I saw, mid term was really expensive/competitive, insurance, taxes and buyer competition ate up any shot at making long term rentals work. We did do a couple of live in flips while living there, but long distance made much more sense for non owner occupied investments. 

    We do short term, mid term, and class A-B long term. The class of tenant, as I see it, probably needs to be A-B to give long distance a realistic shot at succeeding.

  • Realtor · Boulder, CO · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    1y

    Of all the people I’ve known in real life who have invested out of state, a high percentage (probably 9 out of 10) have lost money and sold after a few years due to much higher than expected operating costs/ unexpected capital expenditures/ tenant or management company issues. When I looked into investing out of state personally once, the turnkey company being strongly recommended to me by a friend (Morris Invest) ended up being a colossal scam, so that was the end of the idea for me personally. I might consider it again if I was partnered up with a family member in an area that I know very well like my hometown, but even then probably not. 

    That said, I have helped several out of state investors here in Boulder and they have all done very well. So while I joke that nobody should invest out of state unless that state is Colorado, there is some truth to that for me, just from drawing on personal experience. If you have a great agent and team and you’re investing in a great area that appreciates like crazy, then you can pull it off but great agents aren’t that common and they may leave the business at any time, and appreciation isn’t always linear or guaranteed (although Boulder is rare in that it has had really consistent appreciation since the early 80’s, even throughout the global financial crisis 2008-2010 prices still went up here unlike most places). 

    The folks who I have known who have been successful investing out of state fit into at least one if not all of these categories: 1) Have a lot of first hand experience in the market either from having lived there before or having grown up there, or bare minimum from having spent a lot of time there learning the good and bad areas to invest 2) Have close family members or close friends living in the market (often in the actual property like a child attending college and renting rooms to friends) 3) Invest only in quality properties, maybe B/B+ but preferably A 4) Have extensive experience in real estate and property management plus systems in place to manage remotely/ know how to work with a PM remotely and not let things fall through the cracks 5) They have plenty of capital to cover any unexpected expenses that come up (probably most important and can make up for lacking in the above areas, but of course you’ll be spending more money which goes against the point) and are primarily looking for appreciation, not dependent on monthly cashflow.

    I’m sure there are many exceptions to these rules of course but the chances of success go down precipitously for each of these categories that the investor doesn’t match. 

  • Travis TimmonsPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Ellsworth, ME · Member since 2021 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    1y

    I would also like to mention that the best risk adjusted return by a LONG SHOT is repeating the exact strategy that has already worked. If someone does have success investing out of state, they should recognize that it's hard to pull off and not let that 1 win convince them that they are a genius. Our first successful out of state investment was a short term rental in Maine. Our next out of state investment was a short term rental on the exact same street. 

    I'm a big fan of the Morgan Housel statement that building wealth requires one to be optimistic and paranoid at the same time. There needs to be a healthy fear and cynicism when buying hundreds or thousands of miles from home. It's not picking stocks or trading investments on a screen.

  • Jimmy LieuBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · Columbus, OH · Member since 2019 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Marcus Auerbach:

    You've been sold a pipe dream. I get it. Finding deals has become a lot harder in recent years, which leaves a lot of people frustrated and looking for alternatives. And because the grass always looks greener on the other side, you are looking to invest OOS. Because the grass always looks greener on the other side.

    Investors are supposed to be good at math, but nobody is talking about how the math is impacted by not being local. 

    Anything you do remote is harder and costs more. There is a cost burden that comes with OOS investing. I would say that is at least 10%-20% on everything. In some cases, it's hard cost, in some cases soft cost or just inefficiencies. You will on average pay more for the same deal, you have to hire a GC instead of just subs, your contractors may charge you a little more, order too much material or make mistakes you would have caught, if you would have been on the job at least 3 times a week (like I do). Every service call is more expensive and it will take longer to rent it out. The quality of the tenants is lower, simply because nobody watches your money like you do.

    The book you have probably read about OOS investing tells you to get three quotes from three contractors. Sounds easy enough. Until you find out how hard it actually is to find just one contractor who has time and is willing to spend half a day walking your property and giving you a "free" estimate. We have a contractor shortage. The good ones don't even answer their phone if they don't know the number. It's these little things that sound so easy and reasonable in that book, until you try to do it.

    So when does it make sense to invest OOS? 

    In my opinion, you have to find an economic delta that is large enough to make it worth while the OOS premium.  If you live in Chicago, investing in Milwaukee does not make economic sense. Milwaukee is a slightly better market and you are less than 2 hours away, but it's still remote and the small market advantage in the end not worth paying the OOS premium. Keep your home field advantage. If you work in tech in CA or in finance in NY, it might be worth it to go OOS. Your income is higher and local real estate is absurdly expensive. The economic delta is big enough to offset the additional cost. 

    Elon Musk calls that first principle thinking, you could just call it common sense.

    The absolute worst case scenario are OOS investors hunting for bargain deals in the hood. Because they don't understand. They buy a 100-year-old house at half the median price that has a ton of overdue capex. They hire a cheap PM and ask them to keep the rehab budget under 10k. And then they can't find a tenant. Or just a really bad tenant who trashes the place. They get in trouble with the city, because their house is so bad the city issues work orders or fines them for garbage in the front yard (like a mattress or tires - often dumped by someone else not even living there). 

    Now the OOS investor finds out that reality does not match the spreadsheet. Perhaps the worst part is when they make the local news and give all investors a bad name, because the press forgets to mention that the absentee owner has not seen the property in years - and it's just bad press for landlords in general - and soon enough local politicians start calling for more regulations..

    Based on my own investing experience for over 15 years in Milwaukee I feel in general that it is always best to buy the best quality real estate investment you can afford at the time. Ask me how I know! That is true if you are local, but even more important if you invest remote and every little step is harder and or more expensive.

    Out of state investing does work, you just have to make sure you are extra careful with your due diligence and your real estate team and have vetted them extremely carefully. That's the biggest thing! If you have the systems and processes in place and you do treat it like a business, then you'll be successful. But if you're expecting it to go smoothly and easily without having to put in work and due diligence, you're in for a tough time!

  • Don KonipolBusiness Member
    Investor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    1y

    My opinion is that oos CAN be very successful - BUT you probably need to be engaged in real estate full time to pull it off.  For the investors with a full time career, business, or employment OUTSIDE the real estate field, the need for someone to replace your eyes and ears; the inability to “walk” the property, and the propensity of service people to charge more to “out of towners” may be too large a burden to bear. 

    Btw, @Marcus Auerbach, your OP is one of the BEST posts I’ve read on BP, and I’ve been a member since 2009! 

    Private Mortgage Financing Partners, LLC
    • Investor · Milwaukee - Mequon, WI · Member since 2010 · 5k+ posts · 7k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Don Konipol:

      My opinion is that oos CAN be very successful - BUT you probably need to be engaged in real estate full time to pull it off.  For the investors with a full time career, business, or employment OUTSIDE the real estate field, the need for someone to replace your eyes and ears; the inability to “walk” the property, and the propensity of service people to charge more to “out of towners” may be too large a burden to bear. 

      Btw, @Marcus Auerbach, your OP is one of the BEST posts I’ve read on BP, and I’ve been a member since 2009! 


      Thanks Don, right back at you! I always pay attention when I see your posts! You have a depth of knowledge not many people have and you are devoting a lot of time to sharing a lot of it here!

  • Lender · Austin, TX · Member since 2025 · 98 posts · 19 votes
    1y

    @Marcus Auerbach great post. So True! thx

  • Member since 2024 · 4 posts · 3 votes
    1y

    @John Morgan: I’m not too sure you’re winging it, lol. I'm sure you know what you are doing. 

    On a more serious note, I am a bit sceptical about investing in the US as I am from the UK which will make me an OOC. Do you think your strategy would work for an out-of-country investor? I mean I have rentals in other countries where properties are not as beat up by tenants as in some areas in the US and have never had problems being an OOC investor all these years but, I am rather sceptical about that working in the US seeing some of the conditions that properties are left in by tenants. What's your view?

    • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
      Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Sam Andrews:

      @John Morgan: I’m not too sure you’re winging it, lol. I'm sure you know what you are doing. 

      On a more serious note, I am a bit sceptical about investing in the US as I am from the UK which will make me an OOC. Do you think your strategy would work for an out-of-country investor? I mean I have rentals in other countries where properties are not as beat up by tenants as in some areas in the US and have never had problems being an OOC investor all these years but, I am rather sceptical about that working in the US seeing some of the conditions that properties are left in by tenants. What's your view?


      I have funded a alot of OOC buyers.. especially from AU  and one thing I think those that failed had in common is they simply did not realize the risk involved at certain price points and that tenants were the same from bottom barrel RE and locations to top locations they just thought tenants would be like those in OZ you know rent is ACH every month without fail etc etc.

      I have one suggestion when asked.. that is if your going to go OOS  or OOC location and quality is a must.. figure out wwhat market you want to be in.. figure out the median price point for those type of properties  So if your in say Indy and the median is 275k  you buy at that price point or above regardless of the financials this will put U in better schools and many owner occ homes on the block and hopefully the majority are owner occ.. I mean its stand to reason the 100k house in indy where is that what kind of tenants Schools etc.. investors do it to them selves they only look at cash flow numbers day one that are all best case scenario's. this IMHO is a massive mistake every city has its good and safe areas and every city has its poor and unsafe areas.. the Poor and unsafe areas are dominated by NON owner occuppied while the safe and good is generally owner occ and those are going to be your better areas and safer bets.
  • Investor · Milwaukee - Mequon, WI · Member since 2010 · 5k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    1y

    @Steve K. I had to copy/paste your last statement, because I agree 100% and you sum it up very concisely:



    The folks who I have known who have been successful investing out of state fit into at least one if not all of these categories: 

    1) Have a lot of first hand experience in the market either from having lived there before or having grown up there, or bare minimum from having spent a lot of time there learning the good and bad areas to invest 

    2) Have close family members or close friends living in the market (often in the actual property like a child attending college and renting rooms to friends) 

    3) Invest only in quality properties, maybe B/B+ but preferably A 

    4) Have extensive experience in real estate and property management plus systems in place to manage remotely/ know how to work with a PM remotely and not let things fall through the cracks 

    5) They have plenty of capital to cover any unexpected expenses that come up (probably most important and can make up for lacking in the above areas, but of course you’ll be spending more money which goes against the point) and are primarily looking for appreciation, not dependent on monthly cashflow.

    ----

    The biggest noobie-trap I see is buying OOS because the low price points have an irresistible allure and totally mesmerize them like the snake Kaa in The Jungle Book! They put (spreadsheet) cashflow over everything, buy in the cheapest neighborhood, remodel very little to protect CoC returns, hire the cheapest PM and charge the highest rents, and as the consequence of all the above inevitably attract the most desperate tenants.

    • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
      Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Marcus Auerbach:

      @Steve K. I had to copy/paste your last statement, because I agree 100% and you sum it up very concisely:



      The folks who I have known who have been successful investing out of state fit into at least one if not all of these categories: 

      1) Have a lot of first hand experience in the market either from having lived there before or having grown up there, or bare minimum from having spent a lot of time there learning the good and bad areas to invest 

      2) Have close family members or close friends living in the market (often in the actual property like a child attending college and renting rooms to friends) 

      3) Invest only in quality properties, maybe B/B+ but preferably A 

      4) Have extensive experience in real estate and property management plus systems in place to manage remotely/ know how to work with a PM remotely and not let things fall through the cracks 

      5) They have plenty of capital to cover any unexpected expenses that come up (probably most important and can make up for lacking in the above areas, but of course you’ll be spending more money which goes against the point) and are primarily looking for appreciation, not dependent on monthly cashflow.

      ----

      The biggest noobie-trap I see is buying OOS because the low price points have an irresistible allure and totally mesmerize them like the snake Kaa in The Jungle Book! They put (spreadsheet) cashflow over everything, buy in the cheapest neighborhood, remodel very little to protect CoC returns, hire the cheapest PM and charge the highest rents, and as the consequence of all the above inevitably attract the most desperate tenants.


      Marcus I found my self in Birmingham AL  one week and there was a group of AU investors in on a bus tour with my client who was selling turnkey at the time.. Solid c to b.. ( he owns over 200 of them himself and he and I used to own 50 together , he bought me out some years back)   BUT the point is talking to those folks and looking at a nice 100k house that rented for a solid 800 or 850  they balked as numbers were not good enough.. One lady said to me why should I buy this  I am going to Detroit tomorrow I can buy 20k house that rents for the same amount.. I just looked at her and said OK then good luck.  They had no CLUE as to how values related to safety of  the investment or the tenant base as you allude to. 
  • Nate ShieldsPro Member
    Lender · Fort Collins, CO · Member since 2015 · 304 posts · 148 votes
    1y

    I don't understand what the big fuss is. We invest exclusively out of state. In fact, we sold all of our local properties to focus on said market. 

    It's been the best thing for our business, hands down.

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