What does true wealth mean to you? Maybe it’s having control over your time or having the means to donate part of your income to charity. Maybe it means feeling healthy enough to jump out of bed and attack the day.
In today’s episode, Brandon, David, and Josh (remember him?) speak with three financially independent investors about what motivated each of them to work so hard toward their goals.
Early in their careers, David Osborn, Pat Hiban, and Tim Rhode realized they shared a common goal: to steadily accumulate streams of passive—or as they call it—“horizontal” income. So they got together and made a serious commitment, vowing to hold each other accountable every step of the way—even if it meant dishing out some tough love.
In this episode, you’ll learn how finding an accountability partner can change the trajectory of your career and life, and how giving time and money can not only make you feel better but also make you more wealthy. You’ll also learn how David, Pat, and Tim built dozens of streams of income by living below their means, connecting with the right people, and taking advantage of opportunities.
This is a must-listen if you’ve ever asked the question, “Why am I working so hard, anyway?” You’ll come away from this episode motivated to hold yourself and your loved ones accountable so you can reach your goals together.
Brandon: This is the BiggerPockets podcast show… What show is it? I do not even know what this is.
David O.: If I had not told my buddies in my tribe, hey, I am struggling here. I do not know how to get my wife to be a really good assistant. Like I am trying to get her to be and all my friends educated me. Dude, you are an idiot. You need to go in a different direction. I slowly soaked it in over multiple years.
Pat: Me and Tim took bets on the divorce.
David O.: Now, I understand, now I realized that I am my wife’s assistant. The light has shine on me and so I am here to serve her and it has been a game-changer for me. I have the best way I have ever had. About six years ago, I am like it was so tough, I was not sure I was going to make it and that is because of transparency. Now, of course, I am addicted to transparency.’
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Brandon: What is going on everyone? My name is Brandon Turner, the host of the BiggerPockets podcast. Here with my co-host today, never said that before in my life, is that even a word?
Joshua: Sounds good, sounds good.
Brandon: Joshua Dorkin and David Greene.
Joshua: This is the first time I have been a co-host.
Brandon: This is the first time you have been to co-host?
David G.: I was wondering how well that was going to go over.
Joshua: I am a little disappointed.
David G.: I do not know if I want to be between you guys.
Joshua: This is not feeling good guys.
Brandon: This is going to be good. Alright, for those people listening to this podcast here, this might sound a little different. Maybe the quality is a little different because right now we are actually recording this on stage in front of a bunch of…
Brandon: Tens of thou… I do not know, 150 people?
Joshua: It is like 16 people in the room. Mom, grandma, auntie, thank you guys for showing up.
Brandon: There is a couple of hundred good looking gentleman in this room. We are at the annual Winter GoBundance event. Can I get a shout out or cheer for that?
Brandon: Grab like big. What is GoBundance, we will talk about that in a minute. But before we get into that, we are actually interviewing three people. Yes, there are six people on today’s podcast episode and we will be talking a lot about wealth building but not in the way that you might think. We are not going to be just spending the whole time talking about how to make more money in our bank account, I am sure that will come up. We are going to be talking about what wealth really is in all of its different forms.
Brandon: Money is one of them but we will expand it. That is all there is, Josh. We will introduce our guests in just a moment. Before we do, I want to get to today’s Quick Tip.
David G.: Quick Tip.
Joshua: Quick Tip.
Brandon: Alright, today’s Quick Tip is very simple and it is based on what we are going to talk about today a little bit. If you do not have a group of people, whether it is two people, five people or 150 people that you can regularly get together with and have hold you accountable to your goals and your plans and your dreams, you should probably get that. We have heard that quote, ‘You are the average of the five people you associate with the most,’ and it has been really really apparent to me being part of this group, this GoBundance group and I know as our three guests are about to probably tell us, hopefully that has been an important part of your lives as well. Without further ado, let us hear a quick word from today’s show sponsor.
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Brandon: Big thanks to our sponsors as always. Now, with that, let us get to today’s interview. Now I am going to actually let you guys introduce yourselves because obviously…
Joshua: Because he does not know your names.
Brandon: If you are not watching this on YouTube right now, you are listening to the audio version of this, it might be a little bit confusing to hear who is talking. Let us all of us try today, when you are talking, say who you are before saying something, but why do not we start with the, we call them the Three Amigos. We will have you guys introduce each other in whatever order you guys feel are. The best looking to the worst.
David O.: Alright, best looking to the worst. I am David Osborn, best looking.
Joshua: Of course, David went first.
David O.: Great to be with you.
Pat: Pat Hiban.
Tim: Tim Rhode.
David G.: Now, some of these names may sound familiar because we have had both David and Pat on the podcast and Tim will probably be on again.
David G.: But if you have been a faithful listener, BiggerPockets, you should recognize some of these people and it is kind of cool to see how the relationship between Brandon and I and the three Amigos is going to be tied together.
Brandon: There we go.
Joshua: Noticed he did not include me. I have no relationship.
Brandon: Josh is like the substitute teacher today who showed up on the same day as the regular teacher so it is really uncomfortable.
Brandon: Yes, sad, alright. Alright, let us go through. I want to actually, before we introduce who you are, but now tell us real quick who are you in under a minute. Like tell us your life story in under a minute. Kind of where you got to and then I want to transition that, you guys can transition it, you are big boys, on how you met each other and how that got to where we are today. I know it is a lot to cover in like a couple of minutes but…
Tim: I was the kid in the back of your class throwing spit wads at you and not paying attention. I woke up at 25, I am a grocery clerk with two kids, working part time as a grocery clerk. Found my niche selling real estate, sold a lot of houses, lived like a grocery clerk, retired at 40, financially free. I was a ski bum for 10 years, started 1Life, helped start GoBundance.
Brandon: Wow, that is good.
Pat: That does not mean I learned everything I know from these two guys on either side of me. I took after Tim. Basically, I was a real estate agent from 21 years old, rose all the way up through to be the number one agent in the world at Remax and the number one agent and went to Keller Williams, then retired at 46. I wrote my book, Six Steps to Seven Figures.
David G.: Yes.
Pat: Went on book tour, basically became an investor, a full time investor. Now, I have a podcast where I help real estate agents, some warehouses, in a online company called Rebus University where we train agents how to make more money and of course I am a founder in this beautiful company, GoBundance.
David G.: I am David Osborn. I am the father of three wonderful kids, two daughters and one son and I am married to a wonderful wife who puts up with me. I built with many partners, one Smokey Garrett as well, the fourth largest resident’s real estate company in the US. We sell $10 billion worth of real estate a year. Then I wrote a book called Wealth Cannot Wait, New York Times Bestseller and also a founder of GoBundance. Let us get right into how we started.
Brandon: Yes, please.
David O.: It is 21 years ago, 1997…
Joshua: Are we not supposed to be asking questions?
David O.: Wait, he said like a transition.
Brandon: What is the big idea.
Joshua: Do it, do it.
David O.: Alright, here we go. 21 years ago, I am new to the business, I just opened my first full franchise from the ground up and I am in a class. I have been a class junkie my entire life. I have needed to learn. Like Tim, I was a terrible high school and college student, but once I got into business, I became the most avid learner you would ever meet. This class taught us to be accountable to one other person. They said, pick a peer partner out of this room, look for another person and that person’s going to be your peer partner. Little did I know that at the moment in 1997 I looked across the room, I saw a guy, he had hair back then and I gave him the man nod and the man not kind like this. Men know it, I do not know if women do it, but I know men do it.
We are like, well, what is up? But it means I am cool, are you cool? Like maybe we should be friends. If they do not nod back, you do not go over and talk to them. But Pat fortunately gave me the man nod back and we became friends. What this guy taught us was to be peer partners. He said, you guys have to hold one another accountable. You will be coaches for one another, non-paid, paid in time. Meet equally and you will hold each other accountable to the commitments you make in your life. We held each other accountable since 1997, now for 22 years. It has been a relationship that is even been marked one of the top five most transformative relationships in my life.
Joshua: Can I ask you a question on that? You did the nod, you saw him, there was the bromance.
David O.: Yes.
Joshua: What if it did not work out?
David O.: Most people did not work out. The interesting… We were in this class for six to eight years. It was a mastermind. Most people we saw would fall into a peer partnership and they would just become friends, they did not become accountability partners. But the message the guy was trying to teach us is, and I loved it when a guy got up earlier and said, my peer partners kicked my ass. Pat would kick my ass on a regular basis. He taught me the value of keeping my word in business. If I say I am going to do something, then you do not need a friend that says, ‘Oh, it is okay. You did not get it done, no big deal.’
You need a friend that you said I said I was going to make 20 calls this week and then at the end of the week you have not made a single call. The guy needs to get an email out to you that says, look, are you just going to be like everyone else that talks the talk but does not walk the walk or are you actually going to do what you said you are going to do. That relationship was a sharpening of one another that lasted for 22 years.
Pat: A lot of people spin out by that. We had that, we had other people trying to join us. They spin out by that and that is the majority of the public spins out when people call them out on their BS.
Joshua: All the people listening to the show right now are probably wondering what actually kept you guys together? Why did you guys work? I can go and yes, I mean this guy was my peer partner and it worked out I guess, or something, kind of. But most relationships, most business relationships do not work, right? What was the connection between you guys and what can you share to somebody listening who is actually looking for that person that they can work with?
David O.: My dad said the reason he stayed married to my mom for 50 years was because they did not both fall out of love with each other at the same time. There were times one fell out of love with the other but never both at the same time. With Pat and I, we had moments where we would fall off the wagon, we would not have accountability, but one of us was always kind of drawing the other one back in. We never quit on each other at the same time. Sometimes we were pretty weak partners, other times we were amazing. The second thing we did is reinvent the relationship on a regular basis. When we got bored of the emails, we started going to seminars together. When we got bored of the seminars, we started doing trips together.
Pat: Yes. We felt at that time that there was nobody else that we could really share the stuff that we were sharing. It was proprietary to us. We were wrong obviously, look at this room now.
Brandon: Right, right.
Pat: These people all sharing their net worth and then how much money they are making every month from rentals and everything else, right? All this stuff. But at the time, it was proprietary. It was like nobody wants to talk about this but us. We gravitated with that and then we found Tim and we are like, hey, here is the dude. The first day we met him, he is talking about all his damn rental properties, his auto zone, his dollar general store. We are like man, this is great. We need to hang out with this kid more often.
David O.: What Tim brought which was even more important to us really was health. Like Pat and I would compete on number of hours worked, dollar productive hours, how many assets we bought, but we were really all about business. Then we went to a money matters conference and Pat met Tim. He is like, ‘I think I found a guy that can fit in with us.’ What Tim has done, he had already retired. He was living in the woods. We called them the back country billionaire because he rode his bike every day and he skied and he brought an element of health to us that we did not have at that point. I am fitter now than I ever was when I first met Tim.
Tim: Yes, that is my thing. It is getting the goods in the woods and money is great. There is a heck of a lot of stuff out there that make good money and do well with your investing so you can live a marvelous life.
David G.: That is one of the most appealing parts of GoBundance is it is not just focused on growing your net worth or growing your passive income but you are doing it for the purpose of having a better life, right? Like if your why is big enough, they can drive you through all the obstacles that prevent you from succeeding and things like business. A lot of listeners to this podcast, they are facing that frustration of I know what I need to do but I just cannot do it. I feel like a lot of the time their why is not big enough or they do not have a vision of what they want it to look like. Can you guys tell us a little bit about how GoBundance ties into that? The principles of GoBundance and how they basically like tie into helping you accomplish your goals.
Tim: I would love to touch on that. In 1997, I had a magnificent future vision. I dreamed I would be living up in the hills with an amazing magnificent view. I would be getting the goods in the woods daily, taking care of my family and find some meaningful way to give back. I wrote all that in ’97, by 2004 it was a reality. That is, like you said, you have to have an amazing vision that gets you up every morning saying let me at them.
Brandon: I love that, I love that.
David O.: The way that ties in those, we all found is you achieved success in life. I think everyone in this room has probably experienced this. You become lonely, you become alone, you get isolated. The reason is most of your friends are willing to do what you are doing to get to where you want to go, right? That is not good or bad. You have your high school buddies and then your college buddies and then you are driving. I think Pat and I worked because we were so ambitious. We want it to be more, we were pushing each other to grow and I got so lucky in Pat.
He was the greatest peer partner of all time. I think he is slightly psychopathic. He loves kicking my ass when I am not doing what I said I was going to do it. I was like so glad about that because then by the law of reciprocation, if he screwed up in the littlest way, I was able to jump right back in. But we found that that ambition is a double edge sword. Money is only good for good money can do. But having a lot of money makes a lot of things easier. If you want to make a difference in a charity, you can give a bunch of money. If you want to go on a vacation, it is a great vacation. If you want to educate your kids or get them ski lessons, it is way easier with money than without it. Have you have seen the prices at this resort?
We just kind of became like closer and closer. We did not start off as friends, we started off as accountability partners, but suddenly we were just leaving our friends behind and you either had to be half the person you were around them, some few were cool with it, or you had to like lie or just not be fully yourself. Or there is the rest of your friends like, yes, you are becoming a jerk. All you do is talk about your money and your vacations. I am like, ‘Well, what am I supposed to talk about? I am like working all the time and…
David O.: Sorry, what?
Joshua: Nothing, that is awesome. Did I cut them off?
David O.: That is good, you should.
Joshua: Good. Alright. Hey, listen, we are talking about this organization, we are talking about GoBundance, but at the end of the day the listeners do not necessarily care too much about the organization, but I think they are going to… Many of them will and I hope they investigate and look into it. But beyond that, I think the pillars of the organization are what are so valuable about this group.
Brandon: Yes, for sure.
Joshua: I think what David and Brandon have both chatted, Brandon, continues to bloviate about lots of things including…
Brandon: Says the guy who is still talking.
Joshua: GoBundance. This is my time. Anyway, I am going to read the pillars of GoBundance and then we are going to go through each of these pillars. We are going to chat with you guys about them. What they mean and how people can kind of bring this into their own life. First pillar is age defying health, then authentic relationships, bucket list adventures. Oh yes. Extreme accountability, genuine contribution and horizontal income which we will also define.
Brandon: Why do not we start with the last one?
Brandon: Right. I say that because a lot of people are now going to wait horizontal income. What does that mean? Let us talk about that. Out of these six pillars, who wants to kind of define what a horizontal income is?
Pat: Horizontal income just the opposite of vertical income. Everybody has a job where they get a 2% raise, 3% raise. Every year, where you work harder, you sell more in your business and you make more money. That is going up vertically. This is horizontal, what is coming in sideways. Obviously rental properties are horizontal. Maybe a business that you own that you do not work in is horizontal. Our goal has always been to try to get as many lines as you can so that they pay your personal bills and then you do not have to work, financially free.
Joshua: Hey, Pat. What is the difference between horizontal and passive income? Is it the same thing?
Pat: Same exact thing.
Brandon: Good term though. I like it. Alright.
Pat: David just came like with a definition better.
David G.: I like my definition better though. But ours only you can have your back and receive checks. We thought that was kind of cool.
Brandon: Well, I guess. Horizontally, yes, that is clever. Alright, horizontal income, what do you guys have for horizontal income generally speaking? You do not have to say everything but let me just say who you are and what you have for that right now.
Joshua: You do not need to say how much. He just means…
Brandon: Yes, just like what was sort of your focus for that?
Pat: Right. Single family, multifamily.
David G.: What did you got? 40 business?
Pat: Yes, I have got like 40 some depending on the day, whatever. Lines of income coming in horizontally. Some are businesses, probably 10 are businesses, five are notes, six apartment buildings, one shopping center, 12 houses, blah, blah, blah.
Tim: I probably got like 30 streams of income coming in. My whole gig is how can I work as little as possible on making money and water skiing and other people’s wake like David Osborn and Andrew Cushman and stuff and a lot of them. David has got brilliant people and they make me a lot of money so I can spend all my time getting the goods in the words and helping make a real difference in communities all over America. Boom.
David G.: Nice, nice.
David O.: David Osborn, I got over 150 streams of income.
Pat: Damn, son.
David G.: What are some of those?
David O.: Single family rentals, which we all came from single family. We love it. I used to love it. A multifamily, I owned 14 franchises, five master franchises. I have a private equity firm. I have an insurance company. I have intellectual property. I think that is it.
Brandon: You got a boat?
David O.: Yes, I had a boat.
Pat: You lumped all your single families into one.
David O.: No, no, no. I counted them separate because you always bust my nuts if I do not.
Pat: Just checking because I thought it was like…
David O.: I have 95 single family home. 95 of those 150 are single family. The other 55 are businesses of various kinds.
Joshua: For somebody listening, this is intimidating. I could imagine like you have never done this, you are working a nine to five job and you are like, oh this is crazy. I mean like, I am not going to be a gagillionaire with like these guys. It is not a real world. How does somebody, it is not a real word I know, shut up.
Pat: We like novelty words.
Joshua: I am allowed to make shit up, okay? This is my show.
Brandon: Was. Was your show.
Joshua: Wow. How does somebody who is working a nine to five job, how does somebody begin to transition to a place where they can start to feasibly begin to build these? I am working nine to five. I have got a family, I have got obligations. How do I find the time to start to build this horizontal income? I mean, I cannot even conceptualize. How do I do that?
David O.: Just to put it in for perspective, Tim, did you graduate college?
Tim: I barely graduated high school. I never went to a day at college.
Joshua: Was it in the woods?
Tim: It was in the woods. Portola, California in the house.
David O.: Just there is not any exceptional like human beings up here. It is just people that got started early on building one stream of income at a time. My first one was 1995, when was your first one?
Tim: My first one was 1983, 1981, it was when the Niners won their first Superbowl.
David G.: You celebrated by buying a house.
David O.: Yours?
David O.: It sounds intimidating because of the 20 plus years we have been really dedicated to adding these streams. But if you just start with one and you get around the right peer group that make, it seems easy when you are suddenly meeting guys like we meet that are like, oh I got 15 properties. Like wow, if that guy has got 15, I should be able to have 20.
Pat: Dollar cost average.
Tim: I have never seen a better model of this ever than David Greene sitting right here.
Tim: The whole thing he did better than anybody I have ever met is as his income went up and he worked really hard, but he lived way below his means. Vince Lombardi said, ‘Defense wins championships.’ Most people do not know what is coming in, what is going out, what is left to invest. That is the key to the whole thing. It is a simple basic form…
David O.: We have something called 100% of the goals to have 100% of your monthly expenses covered by passive income. Then you are free, you can do whatever you want. You can be charitable, you could not take your whole time off and ski. You can spend all your time with your family. But one of our goals is for everyone to be 100%.
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Brandon: I really liked it because, yes, once you have that freedom… This is Brandon, by the way, once you step outside of having to have a nine to five job, you can choose to have a nine to five job or you can choose to do whatever you want. That is when life gets really, I do not know if fun is the right word, but meaningful maybe in a lot of ways. Not that the job cannot be meaningful, but there is just something about having the freedom to explore those other things. A lot of people say, ‘Well, money does not make you happy. Well that is true, but like you said earlier, it does not make things easier.
David O.: I am really glad I made a lot of money before I figured out the money does not make you happy.
Brandon: Okay, all I know… I have a question on that. All three of you guys worked, all you mentioned is you too, I am assuming Tim as well, but worked really hard at some point. Like you worked a ton of hours. Now that you are well off and we are all millionaires, now it is easy to talk about oh age defying health and bucket list adventures. That is really easy to talk about. What about the guy sitting there who is got a net worth of negative $75? Like how do the pillars and living and becoming wealthy across the different things, how does that play into it in your opinion?
Joshua: Do not go on a bucket list adventure.
Brandon: Yes, is that what you said? Do not do those things.
David O.: We think almost everyone has to do 20 years in 10. I mean I do not know another way to do it. I do not know another way than to work 70 to 80 hours a week for at least 10 years.
Pat: Save your ass of.
David O.: Save your money. Live below your means.
Pat: Save money and then invest that money.
Tim: As our coach, Dr. Fred Grosse taught us, it is dollar productive activity. It is spending your time doing the things that make you money and delegate the rest.
Brandon: Can you guys talk about that just a minute longer. Spend the time, that is a really important thing for wealth building, to spend the time on a thing that makes you money.
David O.: Real estate as the everyday man’s way to wealth in my opinion. Like you do not have to be a rocket scientist, you just have to be disciplined. Live well below your means, play defense. We all live the lower means. My car was always second hand. I used to be embarrassed to walk to my car after recruiting appointments. I would wait until the agent left because I was so embarrassed about my car I drove. It was my mom’s car.
Joshua: Wealth is not like showing off your Bugatti, blinging around and looking fly. Well, you look fly. Look at that. Freaking look at us.
Tim: There is another really big piece of that. That is like where you are, be where you are. So many people, when they are at work, they are thinking, they are online looking at their vacation and they are on vacation and they are checked into work. That was another thing Dr. Fred taught us is always be where you are. I would like to say one other thing, and that is anybody listening to this is absolutely on the right track. I never spent a dime or a minute learning about the periodic tables, WTF, however, what to do with what I make fascinated me. I spent a lot of time learning how to invest. If you are listening to this, you get this already.
David G.: I think that there is a lot of truth to the point that when most people are at their job and they are working, they are really not 100% focused on what they are doing. In fact, I would say if you looked at your eight hours of work that the typical person puts in, they do 15% to 20% of that time actually working. But the rest of it is unfocused activities. If you have a big goal, you know you want to be a real estate investor, you do not want to buy a property. If you get really good at the job you already have and you can get eight hours of work done in two or three hours, there is no reason why you should not be pursuing your other goals as long as you are meeting your obligations. Josh, you run a company, you are about to tell me that I should have tell you both…
Joshua: What the hell?
David G.: I will tell you…
Joshua: That is some 4-Hour Workweek pay somebody do your job business.
David G.: I know. There is people that work at Kragan Auto Parts, when nobody is walking in the store and there is nothing to do, they sit around, they look at their phone, they go on Facebook. They are not doing productive activities. Whereas if they took that time and focused it on what is my goal, where do I want to get there? Then brought accountability into their life because they know someone’s going to be calling me at the end of the week to ask if I did what I was going to do. Their life would look like completely different and for whatever reason, there is a lot of people that do not even understand that is a thing. When you get around other people who think that way and are that way, you start to notice that there is tons of opportunity in your own life that you did not even see was there.
Pat: Set financial goals, not material ones.
Joshua: I would just say do not do what he said. When you are at the job, do your work because your boss will get angry. But I mean take a look, we all putz around and do unproductive stuff and you are completely right but as an employer I would say try and be present for your job.
David O.: Do not work for any of us.
Joshua: No, I mean, look, you should be taking time and thinking, right? I mean I think that is one of the things that all of us who were successful in this room do more than the people who are unsuccessful, right? It is we stop and we actually think, right? It is not just I am in the job and I am, what do you like to say, watching Desperate Housewives or Dancing with the Stars?
Brandon: Dancing with the Stars.
Joshua: I mean like instead of going home and doing that, we are thinking, right? We are planning, we are plotting, how can we do that? Okay, you could do a little bit at work but like that is I think what needs to happen. Taking that time that most people just drone away in their lives and being productive with it. Would you guys agree?
David O.: When we were first setting up our peer partnership, we would start getting together and having just that, thinking moments, where we would review one another’s financial statements, review where you are at with your life, your health, your fitness, your relationship with your kids. Thinking not just individually, but with the right peer group thinking becomes just multiplied in effectiveness. We would take vacations together where we would work one day, play one day, and then work one day the next, just to really focus. Tim, had almost broke his heart. One day was in steamboat with me and then we had like a 10 inch powder day, but we had agreed to work and he worked that day. The man, he let us know about it every time we talked to him for about ten years.
Pat: Still does.
Tim: The new role as we make it up our land do goals, we may do them late at night but we get the goods in the woods. How many of you liked that? You guys liked that piece of it?
Joshua: I will interject really quick. One of the things that I did, this was about probably a year and a half, two years ago, I met somebody very very exceptionally successful, was running a company. What they told me blew my mind. I was busy working ridiculous hours when we my business and he said, stop doing what you are doing. Like I take a full day off every single week from being at the company. This may not work at all stages, but it certainly worked at latter stages. For me, it was incredibly powerful. I would take my Wednesdays off. I started taking my Wednesdays off. I did not go into work. I mean, check a little bit of email maybe, just the bare minimum. That time was spent thinking, reading, learning, developing and fostering relationships. None of that time was spent doing busywork.
I think that allowed me to grow and allowed the company to grow dramatically. That time is so important. Like we are trained to think that you just do, right? Success is not doing. In order to become successful, you really need to spend time thinking, you have to. Our education system, the business gurus out there, I really do not believe put enough emphasis on this. It is weird because every successful business person I have ever met spends more time thinking than doing anything else. I just want to put that out there.
Tim: I love to feedback on that. To me it is thinking with an elevated heart rate out in the boonies.
Pat: Of course.
Tim: That is where you have…
David G.: Back to the goods in the woods.
Brandon: They have so many studies on that.
Tim: Dude, it is…
Brandon: When you think while doing…
Tim: Yes. Think about taking the time. It is kind of like sacred selfishness to take the time to figure out who in the heck am I and am I in the right place for where I am supposed to be and where might I need to course correct.
Pat: Yes, let us hit the next pillar.
David G.: Actually, I was going to go there. It was accountability, that is what I want to ask you guys about. One of the things that is very unique about GoBundance, and I really have not experienced it anywhere else, is the level of transparency you have to have to be in the group. I mean you have to share what your net worth is, what it changed from the year before, what your passive income is, what your weight is, what your goals are for all of these pillars, right?
Brandon: How your relationship is with your wife.
David G.: Yes, I mean that comes up a lot, right? People are talking about things that they are not comfortable talking about most of the time. What I find is that you share what you have going on and you have five or six other bad ass people who are now giving you advice that may be succeeding in areas you are struggling. Can you guys share with us how you started that and how you feel like it is benefited your goals including your real estate investing?
David O.: We just built layer upon layer. We started with Pat and I just doing money, wealth, accountability, productivity, building our businesses. We met Tim, Tim added in the health and the bucket lists of ventures. We got sick of going to conferences with like just they were talking head to us all the time. We started having our own retreats where we would go through our one sheets and then we added…
David O.: Like a horizontal income.
Pat: We added goals, bucket… We added everything. Basically, we got together with Rod Thomas and Mike McCarthy and we came up with something called a one sheet, which is a baseball card. Imagine a baseball card on the front. You got this guy with great teeth, looking great holding a baseball, right? You are like you flip this over and it says his stats, everything about him. That is where we it was. It was like wearing a baseball card on your own back that everybody could see.
David O.: But we found that without the transparency, you could not have authenticity. Without authenticity, you cannot grow. You see and meet a lot of successful people and they just act like they are the greatest thing since sliced bread. They drive a Lamborghini, they got the nice Rolex watch, whatever. Everything is perfect in their life and you are like, wow, that guy looks amazing. Then you find they are divorced two years later or they are in jail because they were doing cocc or something crazy like that. They were never honest with somebody. You cannot help anyone if they do not tell you. What drives me crazy is people get up and they put up this image that everything is fine. Be real, if you got problems, share them and when we can help you. But if you are not honest about it, no one can freaking help you. These guys have helped me like brothers for a lifetime.
Pat: One sheet is impervious to BS.
Tim: The coolest thing about these too is they are extremely tough mastermind buddies. You cannot come weak. You cannot say you are going to do something and not do it. Pat Hiban will call you a false prophet of the highest order.
David O.: FPHO.
Tim: David, a few years ago, picked on something that was a weakness I needed to work on. At first it hurt and it forced me to dig deep and make some changes and I thanked him for it. Think about that in your mastermind group, in your peer partnership, do they really stand for you?
Pat: There has been times all three of us have stormed out of a room or a hike or an auditorium or something because of something one of the three of us said. We are all still together, but it is something that, initially we were defensive about and eventually came around.
Joshua: Okay. Just really quick on this accountability thing again. I keep going with the average guy, that is you. For the average guy or gal, it is scary. It is scary to reveal these things. I mean, sharing your net worth, I mean people do not even talk about money anymore. People do not talk about anything, right? It is verboten. How does somebody who has never done this before, who is not going to join this organization but who thinks the idea of finding somebody to work with, how do you do that? How do you begin to open up? How do you peel the onion on yourself and share that with somebody that you do not know because when you first meeting somebody, when you are first developing these relationships, how do you really do that and feel safe and let that relationship foster?
Pat: I do not know if you can really answer that question. It is kind of like you are in or you are out. I mean, like we say, a lot of people spin out.
David O.: I mean I will be honest, it was terrifying for me early on. I was afraid, I was hiding. I had an illegitimate kid or a kid that was eight years old that I did not know until she was eight. I did not know. I used to tell people I had a niece. I was embarrassed. I was a young man.
Pat: Yes, when I first met him I did not have kids.
David O.: She just come back in my life, right? She came back in my life and I am like, wow, I have got a niece. I would say I have got a niece because I was afraid of being judged for having screwed up as a 19 year old and had a kid out of wedlock, right? I was embarrassed by that. Slowly, you are all going to be afraid. You just got to, if you want to win, you have got to face the fear and start opening up. Today, it is so easy for me to be transparent obnoxiously so as you pointed out but it is because all the wins I have got in life, I have been from being willing to be vulnerable. Even my relationship with my wife has gotten so better. If I had not told my buddies in my tribe, hey, I am struggling here. I do not know how to get my wife to be a really good assistant like I am trying to get her to be. All my friends educated me. Dude, you are an idiot.
David O.: You need to go in a different direction. I slowly soaked it in over multiple years.
Pat: Me and Tim took bets on the divorce.
David O.: Now, I have to say I hope you pay it off. I know you were betting against me but now I realize that I am my wife’s assistant, the light has shone on me. I am here to serve her and it has been a game-changer for me. I have the best ways I have ever had. About six years
ago I am like it was so tough, I was not sure I was going to make it. That is because of transparency. Now, of course I am addicted to transparency.
David O.: Because all the goodness comes from it.
Joshua: That is great.
Brandon: Well, speaking of relationships, talking about your wife there, I want to talk one of the other pillars here, authentic relationships. Whether it is with our spouse or as a father or as a mother, how does that play into I guess each of your lives? I mean do you have any tips or stories or how is that a big part of your life?
Tim: Well, one thing we found like when our wives first got together, the six of us got together, they were all blown away going, we all married the same guy.
Pat: That is so true.
Tim: Think about it, the same thing happened when we started the GoWives. It takes us special lady to put up with our high energy personality and a lot of you can relate. That was something that I think it helped us having them be part of it and having them be every now and then. If you are part of a mastermind, it is good to get together and it is good to get together with the spouses and get to know their families.
Pat: Back to the question of authentic relationship, you got to be an authentic person in the relationship to have it. If you give it, through reciprocity, they are all of reciprocity, you will get it back.
Joshua: No facade, no bullshit.
David O.: I am so grateful for the guys in this room that have helped me with that. I mean really and to be a better father too like there is a lot of guys in here like you guys, your kids, are number one. You only get them a short period of time. Somebody said to me the other day, you got nine more summers with Bella, nine, nine, nine more summers. I am grateful for that.
Joshua: Yes, it is deep.
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Hey, it is Brandon. We are going to take quick break from this week’s podcast to invite you to this week’s Webinar which is how to buy your first, second, or third rental property. Look, investing in real estate is like a moving train, right? A big locomotive. The most difficult part is getting it started. It is a lot of energy, but once you get going, it is kind of hard to stop, right? That is why in this free online class, I am going to be walking you through exactly how to get that train moving, how to buy your first, second, or third or and third rental property so you can get that going a life of financial independence.
What are we going to be covering? Things like how to get funding for your first deal if you do not have a lot of cash. Three steps for finding great deals, three actionable strategies for finding deals that are hiding in plain sight and a very simple step by step process that you need to be focusing on right now to get more deals. Now, this is going to be awesome, but it is also limited. Go to BiggerPockets.com/123webinar. It is BiggerPockets.com/123webinar to sign up and get your spot. See you there.
Joshua: We had a great conversation with Jesse Itzler on the podcast, what it the show, 313? I think it was show 313. He talked about that, you have only got so many minutes in your life if you think about it. I am 42 years old, statistically I have got less than 40 summers left, statistically I have got less than x amount. I mean then you start thinking about life and numbers like that, it changes everything.
Brandon: By the way, just to go off topic for a second then I will move back on. You mentioned the GoWives. GoBundance, for the people listening this show, GoBundance was for a long time mostly men’s organization. There is a 150 some millionaire men in this group. There is now a female version of it as well. What was that email out just for that lady? [email protected]
David O.: We got some grief for not having ladies, but let me tell you why. You have got four guys being honest and a pretty girl comes and sits down at the table. What do you think happens to that honesty most of the time?
Pat: The authenticity goes out the window we found when women in the room.
David O.: Man, I have problems at work. Chick sits down, oh it is going amazing. I am going to be a billionaire in no time. You should see my Lamborghini I got out front.
Pat: Energy just was not the same. Rather than bring them in, we created a separate division, GoBundance Women.
David O.: Because we did not want them to see my weird.
Pat: Because they are going to be more authentic with themselves, being all women than with dudes.
Joshua: Now, if we could only bridge the divide.
David G.: I think that is an important principle that the listeners can take into their own lives when they want to go start their own little private mastermind or go to their own meet ups and start talking to other investors. You do not want to be that transparent with someone that you just feel you cannot trust. If you have got somebody in the group and you do not think they are being honest or you do not think they are going to hold you accountable or the whole time they are just talking about themselves and they are not pouring back into you, do not think that just being in a mastermind itself, it is going to get you somewhere, right?
It is what it can do for you and I think that that is part of why you need to put a lot of time and effort into the people you are going to hang around. Because like Tim said about David, I like to water ski in other people’s wake. A guy like Dave makes a big wake and there is a lot of opportunity there for people that are around them. I would say for a lot of people that are listening and you are not hitting your goals, you are not getting where you want to go, you are probably not around anybody else’s wake at all. You are probably trying to make your own way and you are not a very strong swimmer and getting around the right people will have a huge huge change in your life.
David O.: Dude, I would not be half the man I am today if Plat Hiban did not kick my ass on a regular basis when I was a young up and coming guy. I did not know my head from my butt.
Pat: Yes, ditto. Both of these guys.
Brandon: That is awesome, that is awesome. Alright, let us move on to age defying health. One of their pillars, age defying health. What do you guys do for taking care of your bodies and your health these days?
Pat: Tim just runs around getting the goods in the woods. But just stay active, very active.
David O.: We added that pillar because you cannot build a successful business, as you were saying earlier, without health. Like you got to have your health. You want to win big, you got to win physically in order to have maximum energy to put, to work, to put to use to your family, to serve others, to serve the community. We start paying attention to that thanks to Tim. Now, it is nutrition, it is exercise, it is just all the little things.
Joshua: At day I am so busy. I mean, how can I do that? I am busy. I wake up, I work at my company, I do it all day long. I mean, how is that even possible?
David O.: Well, would you like to have an extra 20 years to work? Because if you do not take care of your body, you are going to die 20 years young.
David O.: Just make it happen and then have a group where that is normal. Like at our groups, at our meetings, we always go ski before we meet, we ski all day. We start the meetings at four and run until 10 or 11.
Pat: Yes. It is time management. I mean how does Mark Walberg workout four hours a day?
Joshua: Did you his schedule?
Brandon: Yes, I made a video on…
Pat: It is time management, dude. It is time management.
David O.: You learn that by being around guys that are doing it.
Brandon: Very cool. Alright, we went through age defying health, authentic relationships, bucket list adventures. Where is your favorite place, each of you that you have been on bucket list adventures, and what is a bucket list adventure?
Pat: Okay, bucket list adventure. We do not like, okay, we just had 27 guys in this room get back from Japan. There was a time, it was in the beginning, we thought David and I went to Africa with Mike and we are like we are weird. No one else could get away from their relationships for two weeks and go climb Kili. Then we found, oh no, there is a lot of weird people like us. When we go on these vacations, we are like nonstop. We do rather than see. We are constantly doing things like Samurai sword fighting or going to some spiritual retreat under cold water and in the middle of the jungle in Japan or riding Mario carts through Tokyo and day after day of ADD activities. Those tasks are bucket list adventures.
Tim: While we are riding through Japan, 27 of us on a bus going over our one sheet, holding each other accountable.
Pat: Yes, talking about net worth and weight, body fat and relationships with our wives and everything on our way to the Mario Carts.
Joshua: Why is that important?
David O.: Because to be successful in life? You have to be able to shift consciousness, right? 5% of people are successful, that means one out of 20 . They have had a shifted consciousness to success by going to a foreign country and throwing yourself in a completely alien place and getting fully engaged in a different culture or climbing a mountain or whitewater rafting in Norway, you are forcing yourself out of your normal state. You are breaking all your patterns. You are then having conversations with high minded guys that are successful entrepreneurs which opens up your mind to new possibilities. When you come back to work, you are reborn, refreshed and ready to go with a new perspective and a new appreciation of life.
Brandon: What if you cannot afford it? Like what if somebody just does not have the money to go?
David O.: Go to a free, Grand Canyon. When I was four, I drove to the Grand Canyon. When I was having depressive moments, I would go hiking someplace like Big Ben National Park, did not cost me crap.
Joshua: We have had a lot over the years, Brandon. You and have chatted a lot about 4-Hour Workweek, a book I finally read after much prodding.
Joshua: I think one of the things that Tim Ferriss captured best for me was life is not just about work, right? I mean if you want to live your life, you have got to experience, you have got to feel, you have got to get emotion, right?
Pat: Work funds life.
Brandon: That is all, not the other way around.
Joshua: There you go.
David G.: A lot of people like their entire life is work.
David O.: You work to live, you do not live to work.
Brandon: There you go, I like that. That is what I was trying to say, you cleaned it up for me. Alright, the last one, we went to a age defying health, went through authentic relationships, bucket list adventures, extreme accountability. We had the horizontal income and the last one was genuine contribution. What does that have to do with wealth? I mean like why would you give away money if you want to be wealthy?
Tim: Well, they say the great ones spend the first half of their life making it and the second half giving it back. If you think about that, and I know a lot of listeners are on that path we were, but along the way, why not give back? Why not find who could use the mindset that we have and reach down and lift them up. That is what GoBundance has done. We have a charity called 1LifeFullyLived.org. It is the number one, 1LifeFullyLived.org and that is GoBundance’s charity of choice. What we do is we take the teachings of GoBundance and bring that to people who never get this message. That is something to checkout. We have a conference this fall, October 11th to 13th, in Long Beach, California. Please check us out and we would love to see you there. Everything we do is dirt cheap so you will get on a plane and come join us. If you cannot come to GoBundance? Why not go to 1Life.
David O.: A life without contribution is not a life worth living. I mean the reason to be a great business person is so you could make a great difference in your community. On every international trip we go on, we spend a contribution day. When we were in Vietnam, we roofed the school and played with the kids. When we were in Peru, we went to a mountain village and we built fire pits and replace roofs and they probably did not need us there. We were probably useless, but we paid for it all and we got the benefit of being in the cold, wet mud and using pig shit to hold the bricks together and mud. Like these people, they were guys, that were there were dying because they were cooking over open fires. They cannot afford a closed fire. We built like seven and we paid for like 15 or something like that.
Pat: We just sent $20,000 to Patagonia so they could buy lumber and stuff and we are to build a house there this year. Together, we are all going to, we are going to build a house.
David O.: You know what the pay would be for everybody on this trip is? The contribution today.
David O.: It is meaning, it gives you meaning.
Joshua: What does that mean? Is it a feeling?
David O.: We built these stoves. The people are helping us, kind of laughing at our incompetence, but we are working, we are contributing. Then all the kids came and played with us. We taught them how to play ultimate Frisbee on the Frisbee cord in there. It is just fun, you are doing it for no money. You are not making a thing from it, but you are committing and contributing to a community of people and it is just touching.
Pat: These are people who never had hot water. They had a hot water on an open fire but never saw. Where we were able to make it a little faucet in their house and water came out and it was hot and they could not figure out in their heads how that happened, they were perplexed. T
Joshua: Thing that I take away from it is something that I am deep into right now which is this exploration of happiness. It seems to me that the giving back part is a contribution to the happiness, right? You derive joy out of… You have built this wealth or even if you have not yet done that, giving of your time, create some kind of joy in you.
David O.: You think you are giving to them but you actually receive so much more selfish more of that.
Joshua: It is a little selfish for a lot of people.
David O.: It is. Yes, it is unbelievable. You feel amazing. It is the most underrated gift there is. It really is.
Brandon: To add one more piece to that, I am doing research a while back for the journal that we launched the BiggerPockets recently and I came around to the article from, I wish I knew the guy, I do not have it in front of me because we are live in front of a bunch of people, but this New York Times columnists or whatever did this research where they study people who gave away money. Not only does like giving make you happier and it makes you healthier and all these things, but it actually makes you wealthier.
They did this study and said an average family, I am probably going to butcher the exact number, basically if there is two identical families, everything is the same about them, but one gives an extra hundred dollars, they will earn back like an extra $300. Like just the act of giving away money does something in our human heads that releases maybe it is our hold on money or the way we view money and actually makes us earn more money and far more than we gave.
David O.: The more generous I have been, the more money I have made seamlessly through my entire life.
Brandon: Yes, there is something about that. That is why I think like every religion has something about that in there. I mean every page says it over and over and over. It is better to give than to receive. It is good to donate, and again, maybe that is a selfish way of looking at it but it is almost more of if somebody is saying, ‘Well, I do not want to give money away because I do not have much, give and then you will likely have more. I it is not guarantee but it is a mindset thing.
Joshua: Last question, my last question. You guys are all extremely successful, particularly you three.
Brandon: Me and David over here are like, hey look at us.
Joshua: They are pretty good…
Brandon: We got a microphone.
Joshua: What drives you? What gets you waking up every day, working, building. You got 73 horizontal lines of, whatever the heck, income that you guys have got. I mean, why do you continue working? What motivates you to keep doing that? Why do you give away? Why not sit on a beach and hang out in the woods and do your thing. How about these two?
Pat: He meets animals.
David O.: Well, he actually gives a lot back to a 1Life Fully Lived. He puts money, time, treasure into that in a massive scale. You should not underestimate that. For me, it is like the gamification of life. It is can I be an incredible dad, a great husband, contribute to my community, give away a ton of money, build businesses, make money for me. It is as much seeing new guys come up at my organization that I help create opportunities for that they take ownership of.
Seeing them win, it is a fulfilled life man. If you do not want to stop… Like I took a vacation the other day and after the seventh day my daughter was telling me what to do. My wife was telling me what to do, it is like this is what retirement would be like. If I did not have a job, I would be at home. My kids would be telling me what to do and my wife would be telling me what to do. I would rather make a difference in the world on a massive scale.
Joshua: Good for you.
Pat: I am kind of in the middle between these guys. I mean the older I get, the more I dislike working, to be honest with you. I just do not like it, I do not need this shit, you know what I mean? I am growing in that direction. But I think we are just born this way. I do not if anything… I bet it drives me other that being Pat Hiban.
David O.: I will let Tim go fist then I will.
Tim: I wake up every morning between around five o’clock and say, let me at them to make a difference in the lives through 1Life and that is what is driving me now. It was real estate and then it was getting the goods and the family and I am still got the family stuff, but the 1Life gets me up every morning.
Brandon: For me, when I was like 22, I remember having this horrible job. I hate it. Look forward… I mean I dread going to work. I get to work, stare at the clock, I mean some of you all know what I am talking about. You are just like how is it only at 8:05. Like you watch it all day long moving. My wife at the time had this car, did not defrost very well, she would drive to Starbucks at 3:30 in the morning where she worked and she had have to stick her head out the window and it is like 25 degrees and raining and the only way that you get to work is by sticking her head out the window.
I remember what that was like and it sucks. Like I know a lot of people are like I was so happy when I was poor and I am not saying wealth makes you happy, but that sucked. I do not want people to go through that. Like I remember, I am like if I can help more people go from that and not just the money and whatever, just like the life of pain and I used the word pain and in the full sense of the word of like any discomfort or problems or whatever relational, I mean, any of these pillars, right? To move from that to abundance, that is what drives me. David?
David G.: I think that you are going to experience pain one way or another. You are going to experience the pain of transparency and accountability and commitment and feeling like an idiot because every time you start something new, you always suck at it no matter who you are. Nobody picks up a snowboard and crushes it on their first try. Or you are going to experience the pain of regret and your life being harder than it needs to because you did not do the things in the beginning and you are sticking your head out the window of your car and as you are driving around, it is cold, right? You kind of got to pick your poison. You are going to pay for it one way or the other.
What is cool about joining a group of people that are on the same journey as you is pain is always better when there is someone to share in the suffering. I mean the best relationships I have were the guys that I went to the police academy with and went through working on the force with or played basketball with. There is something about intense suffering that bonds people together and makes it easier to go through. For the lone wolfs that are out there that do not want to be transparent, I would just say you are making your life harder and let that pain drive you to get over the things that are preventing you from taking those steps forward.
David G.: Josh, what do you think? What drives you?
Joshua: I think what drives me today is a little different than what drove me before. Today, I chatted with a different group earlier here and talked about happiness. That is what drives me and it is not just the quest for my own happiness. I think it is the quest to help people be happy. As I look back, 14 years ago when I started BiggerPockets and before that when I was a teacher, I think what I realized about myself is I derive joy from helping people learn, helping people succeed.
For me, it is a little selfish, as I was saying earlier. I mean it is not always fun but I get joy out of doing that. What drives me today is kind of this quest to solve my own happiness. Figure out… How do I become a happier person? How do I help my children and my wife be happier and my family, my community, my friends? Then, I mean we have got a big old megaphone. How do I help thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions of people figure out what it means? How do we stop being so mad and angry and stressed all the time with each other? How do we kind of Kumbaya, right? How do we come together because life is short? Nobody has got time for all that anger.
Brandon: Good. Alright, I want to transition to the last segment of the show. We got to get out of here soon and we are way over our time. Last segment of our show is something that we lovingly refer to as our Famous Four. Alright, this is the part of the show where we ask the guests every single week the exact same questions. Four questions, we are going to fire them quickly at you guys and let you just each answer. Question number one, I will go and then we will just I guess move down. Favorite real estate related book other than anything that you have written? If you do not have one, that is fine. You can just say nothing comes to mind but…
David O.: Cashflow Quadrant.
Brando: Cashflow Quadrant, Kiyosaki, right?
Pat: Retire Young, Retire Rich.
Tim: Richest man in Babylon. Love the pillars that it taught.
Brandon: Love it.
Joshua: How to invest into real estate?
Brandon: There we go, look at that.
David O.: I just forgot that one.
Pat: We blew it.
David G.: You got a chance to redeem yourselves. What is your favorite business book?
David O.: Think and Grow Rich. That is not really a business book though.
Brandon: Yes, iconic. Yes, sure. All time.
Pat: I am in the classics. I still love the… As a man Thinketh is my number one book. I keep that in my car and read it at stop lights. I mean, it is just something I can keep reading over and over.
Brandon: That is why they are honking you.
Tim: I love the e-Myth. I think with 1Life Fully Lived, we are trying to teach people the business of their life if you think about that.
Brandon: That is good. Alright.
Joshua: Oh wait, it is my turn. Hobbies, what do you do for fun?
David O.: Golf and adventure travel.
Pat: I have a new puppy and I walk her like 12 times a day.
Tim: My name is Tim, I am a skiaholic.
Brandon: Goods in the woods. The last question of the day, let us get you this, what do you believe sets apart successful, I will call it not just real estate investors, but just successful people from those who give up on their dreams, they fail once they get started or they just never get started? What separates those people? You had to boil it down.
David O.: I think an open mindedness, a growth mindedness, a willingness to look like a fool. You look like a fool all the time. If you are willing to step into that foolishness, you will grow. If you want to hide from it, you will stay the same or shrink.
Pat: I think it is a hunger to make money and a hunger to just keep going until you make money and then when you do make money, do not blow it, invest it.
Tim: I would say it is a hunger to learn and to surround yourself with the people who can take you there and the courage to reach out to who in your town is the best investor that you could buy breakfast or lunch with and call them right now.
Brandon: That is great. Call people out right now. Whatever you are doing right now, pause this episode…
Joshua: Pick up the phone.
Brandon: Call somebody. Alright, well thank you guys so much. Can I just get a round of applause for these guys?
David G.: Thank you guys so much.
David O.: Thank you.
Brandon: That is our show.
David G.: For the first time ever, this is David Greene for Brandon and Josh, signing off.
Joshua: That was weird.
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