Here's why all our plans fail

Here's why all our plans fail

Ann Arbor, MI · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 997 votes

To those starting out I have a word of warning, trust no one. Every single person you think is working for you or with you or in your best interest, is working in their best interest. This is America. Nobody cares about actually doing a good job. It's about doing just enough so you don't get sued and just enough so that you don't get a real nasty review on Yelp.

The worst offenders are real estate agents. When I was a real estate agent I genuinely tried my best every single time with every client no matter what. Maybe it was how I was raised maybe it was the environment in which I grew up, not sure but nobody does that down here in the United states. Or at least, so few people that they're so spread out I've never met them!   

Attorneys are pretty atrocious as well. You think you have a hedge against your bets by suing someone if they did something wrong to you? Try suing someone? See how difficult it is. See how nearly impossible it is to get a fat lazy lawyer off their fat lazy *** to write a two paragraph letter for $500. Then tell me you're legally hedged.

property managers are way up there as well. That's quite the racket. I wish I owned a business that could just take money from others whenever I wanted. At least though these guys are required to perform some duties even if they're of exceedingly little value. at least they make the paperwork easy when you're counting up how much money they've lost you.

the only people out there who could actually be trusted are home inspectors and appraisers. they perform a service and receive a flat fee. This is really how it should be. As soon as you start adding percentages you incentivize gross inequalities that will exacerbate over time and eventually result in full scale cultural divisions. You wouldn't know anything about cultural divisions, would you Uncle Sam?

So to all those who have got these elaborate plans like I did six or seven years ago with the intention of building a real estate empire: Don't bother. buy a house in your local neighborhood or even better, just do it all a really really rich people do, buy Google and Amazon and sit back and wait.  

Trust me, the pain and hassle and stress and sleepless nights are really not worth it. And whatever your expectations are of any level of performance by anybody in the real estate business, divide that by three or four and I think you will be disappointed a lot less.

Real estate is a great investment, it's just too bad there are so many people able to screw it up.  

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Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
Moderator
Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
3y
Quote from @Patrick Britton:

I'm seeing a pattern and it's not these professions.

I know plenty of good real estate agents. I know good property managers. I even know a couple good, honest attorneys (they are definitely in the minority). 

Your complaints remind me of the people that will never invest in real estate because there are too many bad tenants. There are a lot of bad tenants, but a smart investor learns how to screen them out. There are bad REALTORS, Property Managers, attorneys, and even appraisers. Taking time to educate yourself and then screen can make all the difference.j

I've seen a lot of crooked, incompetent appraisers in my time. You know what the difference is between appraisers and the other three groups? I don't get to screen and choose my appraiser!

Your "woe is me" attitude won't help you succeed in life and it's not helpful to other investors.

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  • Realtor · Longmont, CO · Member since 2021 · 577 posts · 631 votes
    3y

    I am sorry that you have had such a bad experience with real estate. I do think it is also really important that people are aware that there are a lot of people who are looking to take advantage of them. 

    I think that it is important for people to understand this backdrop as they look at appreciation vs cash flow markets. I own properties in Colorado and Central Iowa, I haven't lost money in Iowa, but at lot more mistakes can be made when we are going for 4-8% appreciation in Colorado than trying to defend 50-100 per door in central Iowa. 

    Also, I have never been a property manager, and when you are giving someone as much or more money than you are making it is hard, which I do some months, but being a property manager is brutal. I do not envy anyone in that business and anyone who reads this that thinks they can do it better or cheaper, should. We need more great property managers. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Boston, Massachusetts (MA) · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    3y

    so everyone's corrupt and awful except you and your profession which are shining lights of integrity ? Hmm....

    and whats the common denominator here?

  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Patrick Britton:

    I'm seeing a pattern and it's not these professions.

    I know plenty of good real estate agents. I know good property managers. I even know a couple good, honest attorneys (they are definitely in the minority). 

    Your complaints remind me of the people that will never invest in real estate because there are too many bad tenants. There are a lot of bad tenants, but a smart investor learns how to screen them out. There are bad REALTORS, Property Managers, attorneys, and even appraisers. Taking time to educate yourself and then screen can make all the difference.j

    I've seen a lot of crooked, incompetent appraisers in my time. You know what the difference is between appraisers and the other three groups? I don't get to screen and choose my appraiser!

    Your "woe is me" attitude won't help you succeed in life and it's not helpful to other investors.

    The DIY Landlord Book4.7248 Reviews
  • Austin, TX · Member since 2019 · 5k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    3y

    My plans "never" fail.

    Many other I've been around can say this too.

    Maybe you are just not hearding your cats well enough(????)

    You have identified the problems you face--figure out solutions for them (as best you can).

    Good Luck!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_MaJDK3VNE

  • Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Patrick Britton:

    To those starting out I have a word of warning, trust no one. Every single person you think is working for you or with you or in your best interest, is working in their best interest. This is America. Nobody cares about actually doing a good job. It's about doing just enough so you don't get sued and just enough so that you don't get a real nasty review on Yelp.

    The worst offenders are real estate agents. When I was a real estate agent I genuinely tried my best every single time with every client no matter what. Maybe it was how I was raised maybe it was the environment in which I grew up, not sure but nobody does that down here in the United states. Or at least, so few people that they're so spread out I've never met them!   

    Attorneys are pretty atrocious as well. You think you have a hedge against your bets by suing someone if they did something wrong to you? Try suing someone? See how difficult it is. See how nearly impossible it is to get a fat lazy lawyer off their fat lazy *** to write a two paragraph letter for $500. Then tell me you're legally hedged.

    property managers are way up there as well. That's quite the racket. I wish I owned a business that could just take money from others whenever I wanted. At least though these guys are required to perform some duties even if they're of exceedingly little value. at least they make the paperwork easy when you're counting up how much money they've lost you.

    the only people out there who could actually be trusted are home inspectors and appraisers. they perform a service and receive a flat fee. This is really how it should be. As soon as you start adding percentages you incentivize gross inequalities that will exacerbate over time and eventually result in full scale cultural divisions. You wouldn't know anything about cultural divisions, would you Uncle Sam?

    So to all those who have got these elaborate plans like I did six or seven years ago with the intention of building a real estate empire: Don't bother. buy a house in your local neighborhood or even better, just do it all a really really rich people do, buy Google and Amazon and sit back and wait.  

    Trust me, the pain and hassle and stress and sleepless nights are really not worth it. And whatever your expectations are of any level of performance by anybody in the real estate business, divide that by three or four and I think you will be disappointed a lot less.

    Real estate is a great investment, it's just too bad there are so many people able to screw it up.  


     100. 

  • I​nvestor & Agent · Tulsa, OK · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    3y

    “the only people out there who could actually be trusted are home inspectors and appraisers” 

    In my best Dwight Schrute voice, “FALSE.” 

    And, not just false, but borderline comical there, although I appreciate some points you made such as REALLY thinking through what it means to be protected attorney wise. 

    I’ve got appraiser buddies but I’ve also got some on my crap list. Home inspectors: I know some with a solid understanding of construction having owned properties en masse and then I’ve met the ones who show up with peach fuzz for facial hair barely having left their moms spare bedroom writing reports with 300 things they flag, killing a deal due to their incompetent opinion. 

    In life, I do my best to not generalize anyone. I’m not going to defend or attack entire groups based on career… maybe with exceptions to terrorists. Okay yeah, terrorists suck. All of ‘em. 

    But dude, I don’t see a world in which a few bad apples means you don’t invest in Real Estate. Respectfully, I emphatically disagree. 

  • Austin, TX · Member since 2019 · 5k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    3y

    HI Patrick,

    I didn't mean to come across as knocking down your efforts thus far.

    What I meant was to focus on the solutions to the problems you have just identified to make the outcomes, come out better (as best as they can).

    I looked at your impressive bio and you seem like a guy who overcomes problems vs giving in to them.

    Here is a way of looking at people who you run across in the business that might help a bit: 

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rm9BABBPYz0

    Good Luck!

  • V.G JasonPro Member
    Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    3y

    You live a hopeless life. You need to not enter any risk based game. 

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    3y

    I don't know I have seen many deals were inspectors miss things and cause the transactions to go into litigation and they get sued as well.

    also anyone who has been at this for a long time has had appraisers miss the mark or do a very lazy job and use comps that are not comps and kill your deal and you want to kill the appraiser.

    all these professions are just like all walks of life you have great mediocre and poor .. its just life.  

  • Joe VilleneuvePro Member
    Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    3y

    You must own the highest soapbox known to humankind

  • Rental Property Investor · Boston, Massachusetts (MA) · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    3y

    @Joe Villeneuve its where he keeps his horse

  • Real Estate Agent · Bay Area · Member since 2022 · 25 posts · 19 votes
    3y

    Ok Kanye. 

  • Real Estate Consultant · Bloomfield, NJ · Member since 2010 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    3y

    You need to work with one particular type of person when operating in this business: those who are passionate about what they do.

    Find those who are so passionate about what they do that they would do it for free if they could, and I think you'll find the output people produce for you satisfying.

  • Real Estate Agent · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2021 · 8 posts · 6 votes
    3y

    @Patrick Britton

    It sounds to me like you just have to find better people to do business with becsuse they are out there.

  • Joe VilleneuvePro Member
    Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Scott Mac:

    HI Patrick,

    I didn't mean to come across as knocking down your efforts thus far.

    What I meant was to focus on the solutions to the problems you have just identified to make the outcomes, come out better (as best as they can).

    I looked at your impressive bio and you seem like a guy who overcomes problems vs giving in to them.

    Here is a way of looking at people who you run across in the business that might help a bit: 

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rm9BABBPYz0

    Good Luck!

    The solution to every problem is buried right in the problem, hidden in plain sight.  You just have to train your brain to know what to look for, and your eyes to see it when you're staring right at it.
  • I​nvestor & Agent · Tulsa, OK · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @V.G Jason:

    You live a hopeless life. You need to not enter any risk based game. 

     @V.G Jason  not sure insults are necessary. I also agree and can have fun with it but your post seems unnecessary.

  • V.G JasonPro Member
    Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Nate Sanow:
    Quote from @V.G Jason:

    You live a hopeless life. You need to not enter any risk based game. 

     @V.G Jason  not sure insults are necessary. I also agree and can have fun with it but your post seems unnecessary.


     It's not really an insult, it's just reality. I find it funny you agree though.

  • Rental Property Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2021 · 39 posts · 37 votes
    3y

    It's not for everyone. More properties for the rest of us! 

  • Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2018 · 86 posts · 38 votes
    3y

    I kind of understand where you're coming from... Working with new folks in the real estate arena is a 50/50 game - half are studs and half are duds.  Its not that hard to figure out to just be you're own lawyer, accountant, property manager, etc.  I'm not saying don't hire professionals but be ready replace them (even with your own elbow grease) if they are not performing. When folks know they are replaceable and you know how to do their job - it takes the chip off of peoples shoulder very quickly. 

    This reminds me of an Eric Cartman quote "In order to get some quality folks you gotta wade through all the dicks first" :P

  • I​nvestor & Agent · Tulsa, OK · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @V.G Jason:
    Quote from @Nate Sanow:
    Quote from @V.G Jason:

    You live a hopeless life. You need to not enter any risk based game. 

     @V.G Jason  not sure insults are necessary. I also agree and can have fun with it but your post seems unnecessary.


     It's not really an insult, it's just reality. I find it funny you agree though.


     I guess I meant I agree with the fact that I don’t see eye to eye on the original post.

  • Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    3y

    I don't disagree with your post as much as the others.  Let's face it, real estate is a low barrier to entry industry...for both the service providers and investors.  And human beings are definitely out for their own best interests.  That's why our networks are important...as is buying fat deals with lots of room for inefficiencies.

    Regarding the rich, they invest in CRE and don't mess with the problems you mention.

  • V.G JasonPro Member
    Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Nate Sanow:
    Quote from @V.G Jason:
    Quote from @Nate Sanow:
    Quote from @V.G Jason:

    You live a hopeless life. You need to not enter any risk based game. 

     @V.G Jason  not sure insults are necessary. I also agree and can have fun with it but your post seems unnecessary.


     It's not really an insult, it's just reality. I find it funny you agree though.


     I guess I meant I agree with the fact that I don’t see eye to eye on the original post.

     Fortunately so. If you did agree with a majority of it, lot of things in life will appear hopeless. That's all my point is. That mindset will go nowhere in life to almost anything you apply to it. Hopefully, the main poster changes his mindset. He needs to go experience some good things in life.

  • John MorganPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Grand Prairie, TX · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    3y

    Hmmm. I’ve been investing in RE for almost 8 years and haven’t had any issues with anyone. Your “Network is your Networth” saying is so true. My network has helped me scale up well and I’ve sent them all a ton of referrals for their help. And some of them have sent me off market deals or tenants to fill my properties. I’ll scratch someone’s back if they scratch mine. If someone seems dishonest, then I move on. Not a big deal. I’m sure there are a few out there that are in it for themselves? Maybe I’m just lucky, but I’ve scaled up to 17 buy n hold properties and all my vendors, RE agents, contractors, insurance companies, property management team etc have been outstanding. And as a result, I’ll keep sending them business and referrals.

  • Brian ChildresPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Tyler, TX · Member since 2018 · 28 posts · 17 votes
    3y

    @Patrick Britton

    I often take for granted the wonderful professionals who I lean on as I grow and manage my portfolio. You have reminded me how grateful I should be. The people are the main reason I enjoy REI. It's not about the money. It's the people that I get to do business with every day- agents, lawyers, property manager, contractors and more. At the end of the day, life is all about relationships- that is real joy and fulfillment. REI just happens to be full of fantastic people that make the game of real estate a lot of fun.

  • Real Estate Agent · Chicago, IL · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    3y

    It's basic human nature that people are self-interested, so that's nothing new.

    Instead of pointing the finger at everyone else, it might be time to point it at yourself. You're the only constant in all of these poor interactions.

    An appraiser that is claiming that only appraisers (and home inspectors) can be trusted? What a surprise.

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