Bedroom Count Misrepresentation

[Russell Brazil]

If an agent is a Realtor (Not all are, about 60% of licensed agents are Realtors), misrepresenting bedroom count is a violation of Article 2 of the NAR Code of Ethics. It may also be a violation of state law depending on what state you are in. I would be curious to hear from agents in other states if misrepresenting bedroom count is illegal in your state. Ive personally sat on ethics appeal panels 3 times hearing ethics complaints on this very issue. It has typically been held to be a major ethics violation with a punishment that includes a hefty fine and an ethics class.

Do you all encounter this problem a lot?

[Greg H.]

Quote from @Eliott Elias:

This topic almost put me to sleep. 

Well you should read and pay more attention to Realtor topics as it is almost unanimous amongst many  of the experienced BPer’s that you give some of the most poor if not reckless information on the platform. Barely a year ago you were here asking for advice on your first deal and now pretend you have all the answers. 

[Greg H.]

Quote from @Eliott Elias:

This topic almost put me to sleep. 

Well you should read and pay more attention to Realtor topics as it is almost unanimous amongst many  of the experienced BPer’s that you give some of the most poor if not reckless information on the platform. Barely a year ago you were here asking for advice on your first deal and now pretend you have all the answers. 

[Bruce Lynn]

There’s no single legal definition for a bedroom in Texas.  Is there in DC?
Some people say it needs to have a closet, but for example I've seen a house with no closets in the bedrooms, but they had portable wardrobes.  To me it was a 4 bedroom house.  Newer house.  Odd...but the owner was odd too.

IRC says bedroom needs to have escape route (window of a certain size, I think the idea was for a fireman to be able to enter with airtank on).   There are also some minimum dimensions like 7' tall and minimum of 70sqft...7x10.  I've seen some pretty big enclosed attics people use as bedrooms with no windows, but had closets and bath...probably bigger than 90% of rooms most people call bedrooms.   Also no definition of a bedroom in Texas Property Code.  I'd be shocked if 90% of realtors have ever seen or read IRC or have a clue if it is implemented in their area and to what extent or with what changes.  Closer to that are the home inspectors who also have buyers sign a disclaimer saying they speak about codes in general, but not specifically to that city.   We don't really have basements here, like other parts of the country, but if you create a sleeping space, or even an apartment out of the basement, could you now count that as a bedroom?

Also plenty of houses were built before IRC implemented.   I also see IRC adopted by cities, but not everywhere in the county.   Also plenty of places adopt just parts of IRC, not the full code.

How are people misrepresenting bedroom count in your area?   I've seen an article one time that said having a closet is not the definition of a bedroom, but it is more of intent.  Obviously in your area you've held agents to some kind of standard as to what is or is not a bedroom, but I would think all they would have to say is that we intended for it to be a bedroom, or we used it as a bedroom and that might suffice.

Same here in Texas with definition of a homestead.  Plenty of people confuse designating your home with the tax authority is the end all be all of the definition.   However my main real estate lawyer says, it's my homestead if I say it is my homestead, doesn't matter if I've told the tax authority or trying to get a discount on taxes.   Could that concept be extended to bedrooms?   It's a bedroom if I say it is a bedroom?

What was the situation in your ethics violation cases? What were the fines? What was the violators defense? Did a buyer purchase the house without seeing what they were buying and felt decieved by what they saw online vs what they purchased? I see some agents put in MLS private remarks that all buyers are to verify all information in the listing and that the listing agent cannot be held responsible. Not sure that actually works, but plenty try it. Also what happens if the agent has never seen the house? So they're using their best efforts with the best info they have? Is there a requirement you see the house in your area before they list it?

[Eliott Elias]

Quote from @Greg H.:

Quote from @Eliott Elias:

This topic almost put me to sleep. 

Well you should read and pay more attention to Realtor topics as it is almost unanimous amongst many  of the experienced BPer’s that you give some of the most poor if not reckless information on the platform. Barely a year ago you were here asking for advice on your first deal and now pretend you have all the answers. 

 The old heads on the forums don't phase me. You're unheard of in the Austin market, not sure if you exist. It's a small community of people doing constant business, have never heard your name. 

[Greg H.]

Quote from @Eliott Elias:

Quote from @Greg H.:

Quote from @Eliott Elias:

This topic almost put me to sleep. 

Well you should read and pay more attention to Realtor topics as it is almost unanimous amongst many  of the experienced BPer’s that you give some of the most poor if not reckless information on the platform. Barely a year ago you were here asking for advice on your first deal and now pretend you have all the answers. 

 The old heads on the forums don't phase me. You're unheard of in the Austin market, not sure if you exist. It's a small community of people doing constant business, have never heard your name. 

LOLOLOLOL.  The "old heads" in this market offer valuable information to well over a million users on this platform.  You offer "one liners" of poor and often reckless information especially if you are operating in an agent capacity.

As far as no one having heard of me,  I have done easily over 50-60 deals in your market of Killeen and Cove.  Mostly back in the early 2000s when it was easy as pie.  As far as today,  I rarely have a project in Austin or Central Texas for that matter although I did a project in Kingsland recently.  These days my market is mostly rural Texas and Louisiana and a few other states.  Me thinks I am doing ok.  Congrats on your 1 year in business!!

[Eliott Elias]

Quote from @Greg H.:

Quote from @Eliott Elias:

Quote from @Greg H.:

Quote from @Eliott Elias:

This topic almost put me to sleep. 

Well you should read and pay more attention to Realtor topics as it is almost unanimous amongst many  of the experienced BPer’s that you give some of the most poor if not reckless information on the platform. Barely a year ago you were here asking for advice on your first deal and now pretend you have all the answers. 

 The old heads on the forums don't phase me. You're unheard of in the Austin market, not sure if you exist. It's a small community of people doing constant business, have never heard your name. 

LOLOLOLOL.  The "old heads" in this market offer valuable information to well over a million users on this platform.  You offer "one liners" of poor and often reckless information especially if you are operating in an agent capacity.

As far as no one having heard of me,  I have done easily over 50-60 deals in your market of Killeen and Cove.  Mostly back in the early 2000s when it was easy as pie.  As far as today,  I rarely have a project in Austin or Central Texas for that matter although I did a project in Kingsland recently.  These days my market is mostly rural Texas and Louisiana and a few other states.  Me thinks I am doing ok.  Congrats on your 1 year in business!!

 Sounds like Austin's sucked you in and spat you out. I am still doing deals here. 

[Greg H.]

Quote from @Eliott Elias:

Quote from @Greg H.:

Quote from @Eliott Elias:

Quote from @Greg H.:

Quote from @Eliott Elias:

This topic almost put me to sleep. 

Well you should read and pay more attention to Realtor topics as it is almost unanimous amongst many  of the experienced BPer’s that you give some of the most poor if not reckless information on the platform. Barely a year ago you were here asking for advice on your first deal and now pretend you have all the answers. 

 The old heads on the forums don't phase me. You're unheard of in the Austin market, not sure if you exist. It's a small community of people doing constant business, have never heard your name. 

LOLOLOLOL.  The "old heads" in this market offer valuable information to well over a million users on this platform.  You offer "one liners" of poor and often reckless information especially if you are operating in an agent capacity.

As far as no one having heard of me,  I have done easily over 50-60 deals in your market of Killeen and Cove.  Mostly back in the early 2000s when it was easy as pie.  As far as today,  I rarely have a project in Austin or Central Texas for that matter although I did a project in Kingsland recently.  These days my market is mostly rural Texas and Louisiana and a few other states.  Me thinks I am doing ok.  Congrats on your 1 year in business!!

 Sounds like Austin's sucked you in and spat you out. I am still doing deals here. 

Another fantastic one liner!!!  I go where the deal is and right now the deals are not in Austin. What you might think is a deal with your limited experience I would not touch.  If you would actually pay attention on BP you might learn something.  

[Account Closed]

Quote from @Greg H.:

Quote from @Eliott Elias:

This topic almost put me to sleep. 

Well you should read and pay more attention to Realtor topics as it is almost unanimous amongst many  of the experienced BPer’s that you give some of the most poor if not reckless information on the platform. Barely a year ago you were here asking for advice on your first deal and now pretend you have all the answers. 

I still think it's ChatGPT testing. Lol

[Eliott Elias]

That is extremely misleading, especially to new investors who want to start out in Austin. I just closed a subject to deal with a 3% interest rate and $2000 in cash flow. Your laziness to find a deal should not be aired in public.

[Aaron Gordy]

@Russell Brazil Its hard to tell sometimes what is a bedroom or not. I operate on the side of caution and tell my agents to do the same.

Let's take for example, garage conversions. Technically, from what I understand is that if it doesn't have a defined closet then its not a room. I have seen some jacked up "closets" in a garage conversion to a living space. Is that a room? To the person living in that room, it is a room. 

To the broker or agent...well maybe it is or maybe its not...depending upon your definition of a space that has a rough "closet" with a curtain rod and sheets drawn around it. It can distort the price per sq ft analysis though. I have seen this sorta thing in an appraisal and I had to call it out. And also there is a matter of whether or not permits were issued for that space conversion. 

I don't dwell on it and I haven't heard other realtors complain about it. I have heard chuckles but not complaints. 

@Eliott Elias @Greg H. Come on fellas. Much respect to both of you but this is not the forum for rooster struttin. Take that nonsense out to the streets where it belongs... : ) I am a boxing fan so let me know if that happens. But I betcha that the Spence vs Crawford will be much more entertaining. I am betting on Spence since he rep's Texas. 

[Russell Brazil]

Quote from @Bruce Lynn:

There’s no single legal definition for a bedroom in Texas.  Is there in DC?
Some people say it needs to have a closet, but for example I've seen a house with no closets in the bedrooms, but they had portable wardrobes.  To me it was a 4 bedroom house.  Newer house.  Odd...but the owner was odd too.

IRC says bedroom needs to have escape route (window of a certain size, I think the idea was for a fireman to be able to enter with airtank on).   There are also some minimum dimensions like 7' tall and minimum of 70sqft...7x10.  I've seen some pretty big enclosed attics people use as bedrooms with no windows, but had closets and bath...probably bigger than 90% of rooms most people call bedrooms.   Also no definition of a bedroom in Texas Property Code.  I'd be shocked if 90% of realtors have ever seen or read IRC or have a clue if it is implemented in their area and to what extent or with what changes.  Closer to that are the home inspectors who also have buyers sign a disclaimer saying they speak about codes in general, but not specifically to that city.   We don't really have basements here, like other parts of the country, but if you create a sleeping space, or even an apartment out of the basement, could you now count that as a bedroom?

Also plenty of houses were built before IRC implemented.   I also see IRC adopted by cities, but not everywhere in the county.   Also plenty of places adopt just parts of IRC, not the full code.

How are people misrepresenting bedroom count in your area?   I've seen an article one time that said having a closet is not the definition of a bedroom, but it is more of intent.  Obviously in your area you've held agents to some kind of standard as to what is or is not a bedroom, but I would think all they would have to say is that we intended for it to be a bedroom, or we used it as a bedroom and that might suffice.

Same here in Texas with definition of a homestead.  Plenty of people confuse designating your home with the tax authority is the end all be all of the definition.   However my main real estate lawyer says, it's my homestead if I say it is my homestead, doesn't matter if I've told the tax authority or trying to get a discount on taxes.   Could that concept be extended to bedrooms?   It's a bedroom if I say it is a bedroom?

What was the situation in your ethics violation cases? What were the fines? What was the violators defense? Did a buyer purchase the house without seeing what they were buying and felt decieved by what they saw online vs what they purchased? I see some agents put in MLS private remarks that all buyers are to verify all information in the listing and that the listing agent cannot be held responsible. Not sure that actually works, but plenty try it. Also what happens if the agent has never seen the house? So they're using their best efforts with the best info they have? Is there a requirement you see the house in your area before they list it?

 Title 26 of the Texas code defines a bedroom for Texas.

Not surprisingly, it mirrors the IBC definition as it does in most states.

[Russell Brazil]

Quote from @Account Closed:

Quote from @Greg H.:

Quote from @Eliott Elias:

This topic almost put me to sleep. 

Well you should read and pay more attention to Realtor topics as it is almost unanimous amongst many  of the experienced BPer’s that you give some of the most poor if not reckless information on the platform. Barely a year ago you were here asking for advice on your first deal and now pretend you have all the answers. 

I still think it's ChatGPT testing. Lol

 We have this note on his account

"Is this profile using chatgpt? Many of the answers he gives are incorrect"

[Account Closed]

Quote from @Russell Brazil:

Quote from @Account Closed:

Quote from @Greg H.:

Quote from @Eliott Elias:

This topic almost put me to sleep. 

Well you should read and pay more attention to Realtor topics as it is almost unanimous amongst many  of the experienced BPer’s that you give some of the most poor if not reckless information on the platform. Barely a year ago you were here asking for advice on your first deal and now pretend you have all the answers. 

I still think it's ChatGPT testing. Lol

 We have this note on his account

"Is this profile using chatgpt? Many of the answers he gives are incorrect"

Best answer of the day!  ;-)

[Bruce Lynn]

Are you thinking about the Texas Property Code?  Not sure what code you are referring to?

I don't think there is a Title 26 in the Property Code.   There is a Chapter 26, but it has to do with deceased persons.   For sure I am no expert on the TPC though.   I am probably one of the few people who do read through it a couple of times a year....and I'll swear every time I do, I see something different, or read it in a different way, or learn something new.

From the legal staff of the Texas Real Estate Commission which governs real estate activity in Texas...https://www.texasrealestate.co...  There is no single definition of a bedroom.  That was from a July 17, 2018 article, so maybe things have changed?   I am no expert on this, but have been asked the question many times.   In fact, sent my wife a house to consider today for an investment property that has just this issue.  Attic conversion with nice big room, full bath, but sloped ceilings.  Used as a bedroom now and picture of the room with a double bed in it.  This one does have some windows....house was built in 1907.  I am pretty sure this was not a bedroom when built.   Is it a bedroom now?  IRC in Texas was not adoped until 2001.  So if it was converted before 2001 was it a bedroom, but after it wasn't?   For all intensive purposes it is today.  Does it meet IRC definition, probably not.

This is the house.... https://www.landwatch.com/hale...   check out pictures 23 and 24 of 43.

Also was in a house on Sunday.....single room with private/ensuite full bath.  Room was kind of L shaped.  9'f at the widest point, but about 6.5 for maybe 1/4 of the 10ft length.  I'm sure the listing agent flagged that as a bedroom, for all intensive purposes it is a bedroom (maybe better as a guest bedroom or kid bedroom) but I can see people with ? on it.  Not sure if it meets IRC definition or not due to the L shape.  I'm thinking not, but does that mean it is not a bedroom?  Picture 29 of 41 gives you and idea, although this was a different bedroom.
https://www.redfin.com/TX/Deni...

Would you have fined and reprimanded agents in your area for calling or listing these as bedrooms?   For the most part we don't really have issues with this, like I imagine you might.  You probably have a lot more older homes with converted spaces, or maybe older buildings that have been converted to condos.

[Scott Mac]

I'm not sure if @Bruce Lynn linked this or not (I might have missed it).

But here it is right from the horses mouth: https://www.texasrealestate.com/members/posts/what-makes-a-room-a-bedroom/#:~:text=The%20IRC%20requires%20a%20bedroom,minimum%20of%207%20feet%20high

[Eliott Elias]

Quote from @Aaron Gordy:

@Russell Brazil Its hard to tell sometimes what is a bedroom or not. I operate on the side of caution and tell my agents to do the same.

Let's take for example, garage conversions. Technically, from what I understand is that if it doesn't have a defined closet then its not a room. I have seen some jacked up "closets" in a garage conversion to a living space. Is that a room? To the person living in that room, it is a room. 

To the broker or agent...well maybe it is or maybe its not...depending upon your definition of a space that has a rough "closet" with a curtain rod and sheets drawn around it. It can distort the price per sq ft analysis though. I have seen this sorta thing in an appraisal and I had to call it out. And also there is a matter of whether or not permits were issued for that space conversion. 

I don't dwell on it and I haven't heard other realtors complain about it. I have heard chuckles but not complaints. 

@Eliott Elias @Greg H. Come on fellas. Much respect to both of you but this is not the forum for rooster struttin. Take that nonsense out to the streets where it belongs... : ) I am a boxing fan so let me know if that happens. But I betcha that the Spence vs Crawford will be much more entertaining. I am betting on Spence since he rep's Texas. 

 I'm there, happy to hand out some more lessons.

[Rick Albert]

In Los Angeles we get it a lot with square footage. Agents will count garages, overhangs, balconies, whatever they can to lower the price per square foot price. 

The thing is in CA is it is a "Buyer Beware" state, so it is up to the Buyers to do their due diligence.