GDNIP Ep 43: Getting Started On The PaperStac Platform with Brett

PaperStac is a platform where investors can come together in a safe and controlled environment to buy and sell mortgage notes. Brett Burky, Co-Founder of PaperStac, dives deep into the process of how the platform works. He gives us a glimpse when he was first asked to be a consultant and how seeing a huge opportunity made him decide to be part of it. Brett also shares why this platform is user-friendly, especially to first time buyers or sellers. Learn more about PaperStac and how you can leverage it as Brett walks us through its features.

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Gail Anthony Greenberg & Chris Seveney Getting Started On The PaperStac Platform with Brett Burky

Getting Started On The PaperStac Platform with Brett Burky

We are pleased to have with us a friend and note entrepreneur who runs the platform for buyers and sellers. I had my first experience there. Everyone, please welcome Brett Burky.

There was an idea before me. Two of the partners are actual note investors that have been in real estate for a few years. They stumbled onto notes. They bought a framed duplex for $8,000 in Winter Garden, which is here in Florida. They flipped it for $40,000 in two weeks. It was a random phone call from an REO agent who said, “Do you want to buy a note?” They were like, “We’ll look at it.” They wanted $30,000. I gave them $84,000. They took it. They were like, “We’ll figure this out.” They did that for about a year or two. They bought about a dozen of them. They got some education and started to learn more. They realized, “This is a great asset class,” but they’d like to add some technology to it. They had things like FCI. There might be a cooler way to do it.

I ran into him at the grocery store. My daughter was in dance class. I ran into the guy. We went to college together. I said, “What are you doing nowadays?” He told me this. He knew I was in marketing. He said, “Come over and look at what I’m doing and see if you can help.” I was like, “Cool.” I thought that was going to be a consulting gig or something like that. I saw this opportunity in notes. I was like, “This is huge. This is different. There’s something here.” This was in 2014. I decided I wanted to be in and not just to consult. We started with something before we outsourced to India, which became a giant spaghetti code of mess. We threw it all away, probably $30,000 down the drain. We brought in the developer who’s with us now, Mike and he is brilliant.

We launched a Beta product in 2017. We wanted to prove the concept, “Can we do it fully digital?” It worked, but it wasn’t the best. People used it in ways where they think they were going to use it. We’re like, “We got to rewrite everything.” We ended up rewriting everything. For an entire year, we didn’t develop anymore. People are like, “When’s it going to do this?” I was like, “This one’s not going to do that, but the next one will.” That visually launched at NoteExpo in Dallas in 2018. Ever since, it’s been a new platform, which you got to see. The one we’re on now is the stable one that we’re running with. We are actively developing it every single day.

Is this the second or third version?

No. The one that we have now is the version and we just add to it. We’re tweaking away. Someone says, “I wish it did this.” We’re like, “That’s a good idea.” That’s created an internal Dropbox for people. If you’re in a transaction, you did it. Someone says, “Can I have the pay history?” We’re like, “Download it from Dropbox and we’ll give it back to you.”

Without getting into a lot of the details for us, I feel that we have to set the stage. I was going to ask you a bunch of little questions. The other people involved in this are Rick Allen. He’s one of the original guys. Who’s the other one?

TJ Osterman.

We know them a little bit from Facebook.

He’s active on Facebook.

I was at NoteExpo in November of 2017. You were there, but I didn’t meet you. We had met on the phone. I ran into Rick who, ironically, bought a note from me on Paperstac. Sadly, Rick bought it. A week after it closed, someone else offered me $5,000 more for it. Through a glitch, it lingered on Paperstac.

I told that to Mike. I was like, “We’ve got to fix that.” That’s an interesting thing. For Rick, he can feel like, “I’ve got a good deal.” Mike is the other guy in the company. He’s a developer. Everything you see on Paperstac is done through Mike.

If you get on chat on Paperstac, Mike answers sometimes. It’s whoever is in at the moment will answer that.

I’m supposed to be manning that, but there are meetings and all things going on. He’s usually in the office coding. If he sees it and I don’t answer within a couple of seconds, he’s right on it. We’re responsive.

Our best lessons come from our biggest mistakes. Click To Tweet

I would love to tell people a little bit about what my experience was on Paperstac. In the early days, I would go on like most people looking for deals. You peruse when there’s nothing else going on and there are no tapes. You go to the FCI Exchange, which is defunct now. You go on to, the one in Chicago or New York, the Watermark. What are you going to look at online, ? I used to always peruse Paperstac in that same spirit of trawling around. I never made an offer on anything though because a lot of people know or now they will know, that you set your own price. You’re creating the infrastructure for people to do deals, but you don’t have anything to do with how they price things or any of that. It seemed to me, in the early days, that people who were selling on there were setting very high prices. I don’t know if that’s changed at all, but it was unrealistic. The prices people were asking for 2017 are the prices people are getting now. They were high prices back then.

It might be education on our part. We have sellers that are on there. We’ve told people there are a lot of sellers coming on. As more sellers come on, they get more competitive. They have more offers and more bids. It’s like eBay. You’re not going to find it at this guy. You’re going to find it may be over here. We’ve got 30 plus sellers. They have stuff listed or they don’t either have it on. It’s on the platform but not live. They’ll put maybe one or two on. They bleed them on. They don’t get the action based on the price. They might change it. We also let them expire. What you might’ve seen before is where, in version one, they would just sit there. It looked like dead wood, sitting there and hanging out.

I’ve got two of those. Are you going to expire me? I’ve got two that I’m getting no good.

They expire after 30 days. Sometimes they’ll adjust their pricing and after that, they sell. I always tell buyers that things are negotiable. We’ve seen a lot of changes. When you’re in a transaction, you can see the negotiation history on the left-hand side. You can see the bids go back and forth. It’s a matter of education on maybe my part for saying, “This is more of an open market. It’s not to set price. This is what it is.” There are things. We’ve seen things go to past audit reports. I don’t know if we had an audit report with yours. Maybe you guys sit back and forth straight to a buyer and seller. Sometimes we have the option of having a third-party audit report. We’ve had one go through. Even after that, they negotiated further. The prices still changed.

What’s an audit report? I keep wanting to be in a progression of ideas here. They surprised me. I put three assets and so far, we cancel CFDs on Paperstac. I know that’s something you think about all the time. We’ll figure it out eventually with a lot of pressure from the rest of them. I put three notes up. The platform is interesting. I found that not intuitive, setting up the listing itself. After a little coaching from Mike, it was easy. I realized I was being dumb about the whole thing. It seems that there are a lot of people on there, first of all. There are a lot of buyers there. I got a lot of inquiries.

When I had a buyer, who turned out to be your partner, Rick, it was fascinating going through the process. Your interface deconstructs an entire note deal step-by-step. You start out initially by creating a listing. You have the option to upload your collateral material but keep it private until you have a buyer and a bid and you’re ready to let someone do due diligence. I feel that you could be someone who doesn’t know anything about notes. Your process prompts the person to do every single thing. It’s comprehensive. You’re not going to make a mistake or skip anything because the platform won’t let you progress until you hit the targets. It even tells you, “Seller, you’ve got two steps.” There’s a little flag. It’s like, “You’ve got two steps to do, buyer.” I found myself thinking, “If I were a beginner, I would go on here and buy something to have this experience,” because it had so much educational value. People all the time are like, “What do I do?” Go buy something on Paperstac and find out.

I haven’t bought anything on Paperstac. I haven’t been through the experience, but we get a lot of feedback on the podcast and from a lot of people that take lots of training. They train on how to bid. They train on the different exit strategies. They may train on ordering an O&E and a BPO or things along with that nature. The moment you put your bid in, there’s that time period of one to two weeks that is at mad chaos. We try and get everything done. Those steps can be difficult for somebody who’s doing it for the first time. I’ve sold loans to people who are buying for the first time. Sometimes it might be a little bit of a struggle because they’ve never been to that process. I have to cater them to that. If I know a platform that I can sell assets on that takes that additional work away for a small fee, then that allows investors more time to focus on other things.

It lets you sell to less experienced buyers because you are holding their hand through the whole thing.

We’ve had people at Paper Source say that exact thing. In the industry, they want to do a deal. When they got on the platform, we do show who the sellers are. We try to keep it transparent. We’re trying to make sure that people know who they’re dealing with. One of the guys was intimidated by one of the people that’s on the platform. They’ve seen him around and be like, “This guy is a big guy in the industry.” They felt safe. They even said at Paper Source, “I wouldn’t have done this deal if it wasn’t on this platform because you guys made it so easy.” I got to do a deal with one of the guys. I read his stuff and listened to everything he’s doing. It was a great experience. He was like, “This is cool.” We have four people that buy or are first-time note investors. Either they’re coming from their self-directed IRA or they found some other way. It’s a good thing. The others are sometimes experienced people. They’re always like, “When do I upload my PSA? When do I do this?” We’re like, “Trust the system. We do everything.” We have to get through the transaction.

At the very end, it even prompts you to put in the information for the assignment of the mortgage and it creates the assignment of mortgage right then and there. You bring it out and sign it and send a scan and then they send you a label to send the original. It feels like a robot. I was impressed. I had no idea what I was getting for it when I got on there. I was thinking, “Let me see who might buy my things.”

We’ve had one deal closed. It was fast. It was six days or something. We cut it at the beginning of the week. We didn’t count the weekend. It closed in six days.

I don’t think mine was much longer than that. Rick and I are both well-oiled machines buying and selling notes.

I want you to know the process of everything. It makes it easy. Rick was sitting there and he had to do three or four different things. On his iPad, during the commercial, sitting there with his wife, he closed a deal and put his iPad. I said, “What did you just do?” “I sold a note on Paperstac.” That could be a good commercial that he did all this stuff, assignment and notarize. He put it down and went back to watching whatever he was watching.

I feel like we’re doing an infomercial.

PaperStac: The difficult part of this business is how there are people who are legit while there are those who are just trying to wholesale other people’s stuff.

I have a few questions, Gail and Brett. If I wanted to go sell something on Paperstac, are there minimum requirements if somebody has to put up the collateral and things to make sure it’s a legitimate note that they own it? It’s not something that somebody found another seller and they’re pulling it off of a website and putting it on Paperstac and trying to wholesale it or something like that.

What we do most of the times is we say, “First off, who’s your servicer?” We’ve mapped those tapes. We know what an SN tape looks like. Allied doesn’t have a tape format. I’ve talked to Melissa a number of times so that I can say, “If you’re at Allied, ask them to give you the tape format.” Our first goal is to understand, “Do you own this asset?” The last thing you want to have is a broker to step on. Even though it’s a small industry, for example, I would know that it’s probably your asset. People that I haven’t heard of or I haven’t met, we do our due diligence in the seller onboarding process to make sure that this is a legit seller. Also, if we do have doubts, they’ll upload a note and we can see the assignment chain. We can say see who was the last person who owned this. We’re making sure that it is legit. In the previous site, we did. These are things we learned along the way. In the site before, we were figuring things out. Our best lessons come from our biggest mistakes.

In the version that was the Beta, we did have somebody that was loading assets. We had somebody go out and do a drive by and say, “This place has burnt down.” That was a big red flag. I was on the phone with the seller. “Do you know your asset is burned down?” “I had no idea.” “What do you mean you have no idea?” It was immediate. We took everything off. We’ve got to figure out how to never have this happen again. We went through a number of steps to make sure we have a good seller onboarding process to know that whoever’s listing assets is legit.

The difficult part of this business is there are people who are legit and people who are trying wholesale other people’s stuff. I get called a lot of names and get threatened because I call people out. I’m not afraid to call somebody out. If somebody can prove me wrong, then prove me wrong. My track record on calling people out is based on the information they’ve sent me, including my own assets or stuff that I have literally seen on the tapes is pretty evident.

We’re talking about shenanigans on your platform and everywhere else in this business. Through Paperstac, I have one note listed. The asking price is $120,000. That has gotten the attention of people who have offered to present it for me. They are a note group. Two different people so far have done that. I couldn’t feel exactly what their plan B would be for how they were going to do that. They weren’t going to pretend to be buyers. Do they get the buyer to come on with me through Paperstac? Were they going to try and get me my contact information outside of Paperstac? What was the plan?

I know which one you’re talking about. We freeze those accounts. He has to call into Paperstac. He shows up on Paperstac one day. It’s like, “What are you doing? How are you planning on doing this?” There are people that are brokers that are direct to the buyer that might be doing it on behalf of a buyer. It’s one of those weird things. Sometimes, people, we can tell what they are doing. There are patterns. We saw what he was doing. I was like, “You don’t Christmas tree the site. You’re not going to do all this. He didn’t give enough time to understand this is a good deal for your buyer. You’re not doing the due diligence ahead of time to understand.” I picked up the phone and said, “This is how it rolls. One of my main things is to maintain the integrity of this site. We’re lucky enough to have you guys list assets. I want to make sure it’s not wasting your time.”

That’s when we freeze accounts. We’ll freeze accounts and they have to call me and have a conversation and say, “What are you doing?” After that, either they’re like, “I don’t think I can make what I’m trying to do happen here,” and they go away. I’ll tell them, “If you have a legit buyer, this is how it works. We do have a place where you can put in your fee. It’s fine, but you have to do the closing through here. This is how the system works.” I say like, “Don’t tie people’s assets up and try to hunt some deals. If you have the money, do it. If you don’t, don’t try to shop these things around. It’s not going to fly here.”

It’s typical with people who are starting out, particularly, who don’t have any money yet. They will put something on their contract and then go try to find a JV for it. What is your attitude towards people doing that?

The main thing we’re trying to do is be transparent. If that’s what you’re doing, tell the seller, “This is what I’m doing.” When you’re coming on as a user, it’s not here yet, but it will be, “I’m going to be a broker,” or “I’m going to do JVs.” It might be the opportunity for you to say as a JV, “We might have people that have the money that could be your JV partner.” You can partner with these people that are good people to partner with. That’s an option. Mostly, we’re trying to be transparent. We don’t want to tie up people’s assets and not telling them the truth. It’s important. How we have it, if you have a JV, there is a broker feature in the bottom left-hand corner where they can put in their fee or whatever they’re doing.

If they are doing a JV deal, they can click a button on every document they sign, to email it to that other person so they could add them as a vesting profile or have them sign any documents that need to be signed in the process. Those things are set up for JV deals. We know that people that are getting in the industry feel safer when they do JV deals. We wanted to make sure that we accommodate that. Upfront, it’s making sure that you tell the seller, “I’m doing a JV deal with this guy. We’re going to go through it. As long as the seller is cool with it, we’re cool with it.”

I didn’t realize you had that option to include someone. There is some way to deal with using someone’s self-directed IRA money too. Could you explain to us how that works if someone’s using an IRA?

A lot of our users invest from the self-directed IRA. We like it because we know that the self-directed IRA people that are coming on a buy, mostly, they have a self-directed IRA account because they have money. They’re not going to broker this deal. They’re going to use it to purchase. Dealing with custodians has been nice because we know how they do business. Everything’s professional. Once we saw a number of transactions go through like this, it’s like, “Why don’t we make this easier? What do they actually need to do to close a deal?” I got on the phone with Equity Trust and NuView. There are ten that we’ve got ready to roll out. What do you need to see before somebody closes a note for you?

We said, “We can digitize that.” When someone’s ready to close a note, in their vesting profiles they’d say, “I’m closing with my self-directed IRA.” They click. If we know that Equity Trust or Quest needs this information, they get it and the deals go a lot faster. It’s a good transaction for the seller because the seller knows they have the money. They’re ready to close. It’s a good transaction for the buyer because it’s a digital process. It might be their first time and the self-directed IRA companies like it because they’re not providing investment advice, which they can’t do but they’re providing an option. They can say, “This is a good place to go find some deals.”

Certain things are being generated and sent automatically to those IRA companies. Do they have to come back on and do anything, or is it mostly they would be signing, scanning and uploading?

You have to make sure that what you are doing is not wasting your time. Click To Tweet

How we’ve set it up is that let’s say the self-directed IRA company has their own version of Paperstac. They’re basically partners at Paperstac. When they get the email, they can click it. It takes them to the partner’s portal. They look at it and say, “Does this look good?” “It looks good. Approve.” That shows up on the timeline, the to-do list, how you were following down the escrow. You didn’t use escrow. We have escrow and audit where they both have their own Paperstac portal. We also are going to have it soon for due diligence stuff, the BPOs and O&E reports. They have their own partner’s portal. I upload the O&E, click done, and it shows up in the timeline. It’s the same thing with self-directed IRA. “Here’s your DOI.” The goal is to fill out these forms. That’s the first time if they don’t have an account. If they’ve invested previously from their self-directed IRA, we know they have to use a DOI every single time. We can look at it and say, “These are the fields that will need to be filled out.” We can generate all that because it’s all going to be in the investment that they’re buying anyhow. “Here’s the note. Here’s the address.” The goal is to make it easy for them, make it easy for the buyer and move these along.

You have everyone’s unique forms already locked away.

They all look different. It’s a moving target. We know how it looks. What we’re doing now is sitting down with each self-directed IRA company and saying, “This is the process. This is good for you. Will this work?” If they say, “Could you do this?” then we might change it to adjust. The big ones, we’ve already been talking for them for a long time. It’s hard to figure out. “How do you automate these processes?”

You’ve got my brain churning. It made me think now. You convinced me that I could automate to fill out those forms with a few things to spit out the information. Those forms are tough. I have a family member who has one with Equity Trust. The first time I was filling out those forms, you’ve got to fill out the loan information. They want to know the loan amount and all this stuff. I’m like, “Is the loan amount the actual UPB or is it the actual loan amount? Is the number of payments remaining, or is it the number of payments with the loan?” I fill it out. You’d have so many questions. To have that process done as well, it’s genius to have to try and get that to simplify the process. The easier a process is, the more people are going to want to use it. Some of that stuff is super heavy and it can take a while to get done.

We’ve done a couple of the different transactions through a couple of the bigger ones and they don’t slow it down too much. The self-directed IRA companies are on the ball. They’re making things move. It is something for the seller to understand, “This is coming from a self-directed IRA,” which is good because they know that they have the money, which is okay. Most of the time, they’ve been all right with it. At the same time, I’ve gotten an email string for, “What am I looking for?” Exactly what you are saying is, “Where do I find this information?” We’ve seen patterns. If we’ve seen patterns, we’re like, “How do we fix these patterns? These things could be digitized.” We do the same thing for mortgage servicing transfer. We saw that it was something that happens at the end of every loan. “Who do I talk to at your servicing company? Who do I tell to do this?” It’s like, “That’s easy. We already have all the data. Let’s make sure we sent it to whoever’s at Madison, FCI and SN.” We’ll automate that.

You get your money, which they’ve already been escrowing. The assignment gets created and then the service transfer happens. When you finish, there is nothing else to do. You get back to your life. If you’re Rick, you watch the rest of the show now that the commercial’s over.

It should be soon, we’re doing the mortgage recording too. It’s an option. It’s not in production yet, but the deal is done. We’re at the end. Even after that, as the buyer is like, “Would you like to record this for you?” Click a button and it’s done.

If you can do that, you’re so close to being able to do CFDs at that point.

We want to do this. We took the path of least resistance. It’s like, “Can we do partials or CFDs?” We have people put in commercial loans on too. These commercials loans are like one with $6 million. I’m like, “1% of it? That’s a big one.” We’re laser-focused. “We’ve got a good product. Let’s make sure that we can get the seller’s assets sold, make sure we get the right buyers on and make sure we can make a good ecosystem.” Once that thing’s working great, then we’re in a funding round. We’re raising money. We’re close to getting what we want. Once we have that, then we’ll be able to add more developers and more resources to say, “Where do we see we can move? What’s the next opportunity? What are people asking for?”

We know what people want. It’s a matter of not running ourselves too thin. I am doing the marketing, doing the paid search, doing the graphics and everything. Mike is over there doing all the code. He’s doing customer support. We’re at the point where we need more people. We expanded. We got a bigger office. Once we start to get down those roads, it’s like CFDs. We need to do it. Chris probably wants to put some on. People are putting them on. We don’t know because they don’t look that different. Everything’s the same until you start digging into it. They’re there but it’s like, “How do we make this work?” We know they’re out there. We’ve got to make sure everything’s legal. It’s a nationwide thing. You can’t say, “We’ve got CFDs but it’s only in one state.” How do you it nationwide?

Stop me if I’m wrong. The only difference from your standpoint between a note and a CFD is the final paperwork, what gets generated at the app.

It’s like the quitclaim deed. That and making sure that whatever the verbiage for the different stages is correct. It’s a bond for deed in some states. I didn’t even know that. That’s Louisiana, Mississippi and one other place. How it operates in North Carolina is way different. There are so many variances. It’s like, “How do we code that?” I am like, “We’ll give them the front part and they can do the rest off to the site.” That’s not the experience because then they will equate that with, “This is how Paperstac works.” It’s like, “No, that’s not how it works. If you go through a mortgage closing, it’s gorgeous, but we don’t want to make it the same for CFDs.” It’s quality control. We’re like, “How do we do that?” It will happen, it’s just when. I want it to happen because that means more deals get closed.

I have one word of advice if you do CFDs. I would recommend that the seller provide a photo within the last 60 days of the property. Part of our groups is this toxic asset list. A lot of us were looking at the same assets and they come back on the list because they’re either burned down. I texted Chad Urbshott because he had one under an agreement in Pittsburgh that I forgot to add to the list. It’s one that I knew was bad. I asked him, “Are you into buying that?” He was like, “No.” Fortunately, he didn’t spend money on it. From a QC standpoint, there’s a lot of stuff out there, especially on the CFD stuff that gets fake. They abandon that and people are trying to pawn off. It’s frustrating for me and a lot of the people as a buyer, that you’re spending $100 plus on an O&E or $100 on a BPO, only to find out that there’s $50,000 in liens or the property looks as if a tornado went by. It adds up.

That list that you showed me, with the toxic assets, we didn’t go too far down the rabbit hole of the idea. It was a lunch meeting where we were like, “What if we made this for the industry?” It’s like something that you could throw the address against it and we maintain this giant database. It’d be a social thing. Anybody could go there and put an address in that they found a toxic asset and was able to say, “Run this tape against the toxic database.” We didn’t go that far and then spit back if there’s any of it in there.

PaperStac: Business is a matter of not running yourself too thin.

We have an Excel sheet. You take a tape. You put them in this Excel sheet. You click the button. It’s on Google sheets, it pulls in that information. We had somebody quickly put that together and stuff. People were part of the group. I emailed that out to people as part of the podcast. You’ll get a list of 300 assets.

That’s valuable. It’s maintaining quality. If those things end up on the side, I want to know.

I never realized until this moment what a perfect mandate would be for the two of you to get together. You like the mechanics of how to automate, solve and scale things. Do you have an engineering background, Brett, at all?

No. I’m a musician by trade. I used to be a professional musician for Disney a long time ago. I got out of that. I got into marketing. I do like systems. I’m very organized. My buddy will always be like, “How do you do that?” My Evernote’s very organized. On a plane ride, if I don’t have internet, I organize my order systems. I like keeping automation. I got away from chatbots. I was starting to get under the road of chatbots. I was finding that I couldn’t answer the questions correctly. “This doesn’t work for notes. There are too many questions.” I can see where that would work. “What’s your t-shirt size?” “It’s small.” “We’ve got one here.” With notes, there are too many variations.

Gail, do you want to illustrate and walk through the deal? We can pull up those slides you put together for people.

We’ve talked about how granular it is, but I would love to show how broken down the steps are. We might think of there being ten major steps to doing a note deal. This is how the interface looks when you’re having an interaction with a buyer or a seller. Initially, there’s a chance to message back and forth. That’s how the negotiation goes too. You can see there’s a tab there for “share file” above there. That’s how you release things that you’ve already uploaded. When you’ve decided that you’re ready to share them with the buyers. That’s where you put them.

I’m not a huge tech head like Christopher Seveney, for example, but I found that easy to use. You can see the detail there is. The seller accepted the price. You accepted their acceptance. You get presented with the closing terms. You both have to sign off on that and then the seller has to provide all this information about exactly how the transaction is going to go. Every time, the interface prompts you and has you fill in blanks. It’s simple. You got to the point that we have to each sign the purchase agreement. You review that. You sign it. It’s a DocuSign type of thing. There’s no paper handling involved. I wanted to show these lists. The little boxes you can see on this closing phase are some of the things are not checked off yet. Whenever you come in here, you can see exactly what still needs to be done. If you’re someone like Chris Seveney who buys 100 assets every week or so, this would be handy because you can keep track.

I’m starting from the basics. I get on. I have a username. I log in. Is there the opportunity to save certain assets so I can put him in the favorites? I can keep them there to go check stuff out online and do a little due diligence before putting in a bid and then contact the borrower and things along those lines, Brett?

We have two different features for stuff like that. You can favorite assets. There’s a star in the corner of every asset. You can do some preliminary due diligence. That’s one way of doing it. They can also set up saved searches. Everyone’s got other things to do besides being on Paperstac, besides Mike and me. How do we make sure that they know when deals are loaded and there’s a way for you to say, “I only buy first position in these states. This is the UPB I want. When those come, I want to know?” That’s the second thing. As soon as those happen, you’ll be able to be alerted via email. You can go over and see the assets. We watch the comments to make sure that everything is going good. Sellers are cool with “This is what I want to put in the indicative offer.” “I ordered the BPO to title search.” As long as they know that’s cool, then people are like, “I’ll give you some time to go do it,” if they know you’re going to close. I don’t know if that answers everything, Chris.

Another question is, once an offer is accepted, is there information where you can put it in, “We need to close this deal in ten days.” Is there something that can walk them in after that time? I can either accept to give an extension, a piece of real estate? After a certain time, is it “This person is not going to close. Let’s cancel the deal,” type of thing?

We have two different things that can help with that. One is cut off periods. The servicing will transfer. We do have the abandon transaction features. If somebody is tying up your asset, you can click and say, “I want to get out of this. You’ve taken too much time.” You click one button. If there are any other bids that were on your asset, it automatically will know. They can go back and see that they can put in a new bid.

Do they get notified?

This one would say, “Negotiation phase.” When the buyer and seller approved closing terms and this part it turns green, we consider that, “This is done with the negotiation phase. Now, it’s in closing.” Everyone at this part, if they had bid, they get an email saying, “This is locked up. If it opens back up, we’ll let you know.” If a buyer or seller, mostly the buyer, is holding up the closing phase, if you’ve given them like, “We’ll close in ten days,” or “We’re going to abandon this,” if they don’t, you can say, “We’re abandoning this.” There’s a button on the left-hand corner when you’re in a transaction. As soon as that happens, it sends out an email to all the other people that were bidding on the asset. They can jump in and finish where they were.

We had one guy. It was a transaction where they were going through. They weren’t doing a full transaction. They were going through two separate transactions. It’s like, “Why don’t you pull these things?” If you have more than one asset and someone had bid on both of your assets, there’s a thing that comes to the top, like, “Merge these two.” They can merge them. The seller is like, “Why? I’m going to have to sign all these different documents.” “Just follow the process.” They closed a pool of assets on the platform. It was smooth. It’s one of those things where you don’t know it’s there until you need it. They needed it. It helped them out drastically.

You won’t know something is there until you need it. Click To Tweet

We got a question about that automated email to notify the previous bidders. Does it at that time ask for a final and best offer?

No, it says, “This has been released.” We want to leave that to the seller. That’s not our responsibility to know how the seller wants to operate. They can look at that point, when the buyer comes back and says, “I’ve seen this asset is now available,” then that seller can say whatever they want. It’s still open to that point.

If there are multiple bidders, do you deal with each one separately? Is everybody not on the same page?

Each transaction is private to each transaction. If you and Chris are going through one and me and you are going through one, I have no idea what Chris is talking about. You’ll know because you’re the seller. You will see from your My Transactions dashboard that you have all the transactions. You can click and you can sort by buyer. You can see, “Who’s this?” You can jump in. It will change in the future because we’ve had people that are running the trade desk process. They want to see it maybe able to sort all the dates. You can do that in one part of the site, but it’s not how we want it to be, where you can see all your bids. You put out your assets. We had somebody come in and do that. They loaded 50. They got a lot of bids. They got overwhelmed. They were going into each one and it was the same asset. We’re like, “This needs to be changed to where they can see, ‘This is the one asset. Let me see all the bids,’ and then sort by the highest bidder.” Those are things that are not there yet. What is there is you can see all your different transactions. You can jump in and see who’s bidding on these assets.

If I had twenty assets I wanted to put on, would I have to do each one manually? Is there a way to upload all of them at once?

We’ve digitized the tapes for SN and FCI. We have some other random tapes of some servicers of a similar group. We created a Paperstac tape importer. You put your stuff in there and then upload it. It automatically shows up in your account. There’s a single asset importer too, one page where you click and you add this stuff. That’s when you can add everything that’s needed for the entire transaction. Is that how you did it, Gail?

Yeah.

There’s that as well. We suggest if you have five assets and you want to load it on and you have a standardized tape of somebody else and you’re like, “I don’t have time for this,” we’ll put it on there. We’re trying to grow. We’re trying to get more sellers. We know that you guys got other things to do. If you wanted to do it, it’s like a white glove service, “Tell us what you want. If you want to link us to your Dropbox, we’ll add the files for you.” Once they’re on there, it’s there at that point.

Do you have a number of sellers like SN where they’re emailing out tapes, but they’re also putting them on your platform at the same time? Thereby, if someone’s not connected with all these different sellers, would they have a better shot at starting to be able to buy from them if they went on to Paperstac?

I don’t know. There are the SN tapes that everyone gets. I haven’t asked the sellers. We go to conferences like I am in. We’ll have people that are dealing at different levels. What they’re doing is we can pull transactions where they might be getting $0.75 on the dollar for these performing assets. I don’t know what exactly the pricing is, but they’re looking to get more of retail pricing. They’ve come on Paperstac because they know that if they can get $0.82 on the dollar, they’re happy. These are seller carryback-type loans. Those are things that people have done. Some of these are newly originated with a lot of hard money loans on there, whether they are originating a loan and they have a couple of options of selling it to some of those funds that buy hard money loans that are 24 months, 12% interest. Some have different variations. They’ll put them on Paperstac. There are people we all know. If you’re jumping in the Facebook group, the members there that I’ve seen that have put stuff on, I don’t know where they have marketed before. I haven’t asked. Once they’re there on the platform, I try to help them there. I don’t know if people have seen the asset before. A lot of this stuff moves so I don’t know.

Do you feel like everybody knows that you would load them up for them and everything if they gave you a tape? You’re a marketing genius, Brett.

Some guys would come and when they put a lot of assets on, at this point, we’ve said, “Maybe start with five.” It’s overwhelming if you started getting a lot of bids. People operate differently. Some people operate on the idea of, “I put the tape out and then I’ll take all questions on Friday.” We weren’t set up for that. I’m trying to figure out the best white glove service so if somebody is out there and says, “I’d love to put stuff on there.” “It’d be great if you did this for me.” It’s part of my job. I’m saying, “Do you want me to price it at a percentage of UPB? Do you want me to make a title for you?” That’s fine. Once people get through one time through the experience, they’d be like, “It saves me a lot of time.” It’s a marketplace, but it’s an efficiency product. That’s where the real value is at. It’s more of an efficiency product. We are marketing and trying to bring in more buyers, but for the seller, our goal is to make it easier what you’re already doing.

It’s an educational product too. If someone asks me, if they were like, “I’m brand new. I don’t know what I’m doing,” I would be like, “Go on Paperstac. Find something you want to buy. Talk to me about the price, then buy it from them.”

If they did that, if they were someone you’re doing a JV with, you can always add a team account. You’d see the same thing they see. You are on the team. You could jump in the transaction and say things and negotiate and do all this stuff. When it comes down to time to sign, you’re right there. It’s a team account. We have some people, I don’t know how they operate, but they have a fund. It’s going to be the asset manager who is on there doing something on behalf of the other. They want to see what’s going on, but they don’t want to do this stuff. They have the team. The team would work the same for JV stuff too.

PaperStac: Each transaction is private to each transaction. It is up to the seller how they operate.

How many assets would you say are on there at any given time?

It’s gone down a little bit. Somebody’s assets fell off. It’s either that or they’re selling. We’ve got to figure out how to track that part, “Whose assets went off or whose had sold?” The highest is 150 when you’re around that range. You’ve got to remember that these are expiring. We don’t let people keep assets on there. After 30 days, they either got to reevaluate their strategy and say, “Maybe our pricing is too high,” or they do something else. I don’t get excited about it anymore. People would upload 60 assets. I’m like “There’s about to be a whole bunch of stuff on here.” They don’t do the work of listing them. It’s work. You did great listings. You worked through it. You added photos and documents. When you have 60, that’s a project. That’s what I’m trying to figure out. They’re there. We’ve done the math. How many assets are sitting in the winds? There are probably 600.

The worst part is I get excited. When these are listed, they’re going to get the alert and they’re going to know. These transactions will happen. It’s like, “What’s holding it up?” People have lives. People have other things to do. One guy has probably 60 sitting and they’re good loans. There was one guy who had a pool of fifteen hard money loans. I don’t know if you guys like these, but some people do like 12%, 24 months. The LTV is good. You just park your money. They’re yield deals. It’s like, “Why is he not putting those live?” They’re busy. They have other things to do. With the white glove service, if I knew what to do exactly, I’d do it.

It sounds like you need to hire some minions who can work remotely that offer that service to create the listings for people.

There’s a challenge with some of that is be careful because if you start taking pictures from somebody and put it up and the person put a picture that was a wrong one, then somebody’s going to come back and blame you for it because you misrepresented. Unfortunately, in this legal world, it’s a great idea to do that.

That’s anything. We could do that. In our legal world, anyone can sue anyone at any time for anything. It’s clear that you guys are not guaranteeing the authenticity of any of the information. You can only do so much to vet the sellers themselves. You can’t delve into the details of every deal.

In terms of a software company in growing and getting funding, one thing that seems to be hot is AI. Everyone’s like, “It has AI?” It’s like, “We have AI.” We have an algorithm that sorts the listings so when the ones that are most clicked, like Google, they show up to the top. We don’t consider that AI. It clicks. What we are doing now is we’re looking at using machine learning to understand. At this point, we’re small, but once we scale to a part where we have a lot of sales that we know have been generated, we can take that data and start to model things and say, “This asset is listed in this area.” It’s going to be like a Zillow estimate, a Zillow type thing. Maybe not Zillow estimate because that’s not always accurate.

It’s the idea of knowing what are these things listed at, what do they sell for, the suggested pricing and stuff that where you can use modeling better understand. The worst thing we don’t want is putting crazy bid price or crazy listing prices that don’t make sense. It’s not good for anybody. We had somebody in the Beta site that put it. I was like, “Who is this?” It’s somebody in the industry screwing with this. They put it up for 1.5 but it was a crappy house in some bad area. We learned a lesson. I was like, “Touché.” We’ll figure that one out. We have, it’s a matter of figuring out how has that happened.

A lot of it is word of mouth. It is a small business. Many people may not know. They might do a little research on them. If it’s somebody who’s known in the industry, then they’re known. I don’t think you’d do any true background checks on people. It’s more word of mouth type of thing.

A lot of people come through where they have a business. It’s not like Joe@Gmail. It’s like Joe on whatever website. I’ll look up the website. I might even look at the “who is.” The “who is” is a way for nerds to look at who registered the domain. I can see like, “Where was this registered?” As all these things align, if there are any flags. This sounds nerdy, but you’ll like it, Chris. We have IP tracking of understanding where these people had come from, from the site. There was one that was from someplace in South America. That was my question to him, “I can see that you’re coming from across the seas. What’s going on here?”

It was interesting. He’s like, “I need to sell these assets.” He had a reason. I did verify that he was out of the country, but it came in handy. We can see where the IPs are coming from. We understand from that, “This is an offshore IP address. What is this and where are they getting from?” A lot of times, I start asking questions. We start asking the hard questions. Who’s your servicer? I hope it doesn’t ever happen but the people that are trying to do something that’s not above board and they’re trying to sneak him on or do something like, “I’m going to broker these notes.” If you start asking a couple of questions, they’re like, “I’m out. This looks like they’re trying to police this site.” I won’t be able to watch the shenanigans here.

Have you had any serious fraud attempts?

Were you talking about hacking?

Fraudulent sellers.

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We had one in the Beta version. It wasn’t fraud but he’s on your list. There is a list and I saw his name. That’s the same guy that was putting stuff on that was not his. That’s where we caught him and said, “Your place is burned down.” It’s like, “How many letters do you get before you demolish your place?” He’s like, “I have no idea.” “Sure, you had no idea.” That was in the Beta version. It’s way tighter. In terms of hacking or finding things like that, we’re on Google’s most secure servers. Someone hacks Google, maybe, but we’re safe in terms of those things. We can’t predict the future. I don’t want to say, “It’s perfect.” A lot of times, the sellers that are on there, I like IMN or Paper Source or Note Expo. You have an account. If you look down the list, you’d be like, “I know that guy,” or “I know that girl.” It says your name. It’s that idea. We want to be transparent.

Can we take your list of the bad guys and make a new tab on our list with the toxic assets?

I did save it. Chris, thank you for that. I did scrub the database and see if those names showed up. Three did. I’ll watch these. We do have something that previous platforms didn’t have where they were watching the conversations. We don’t want to play like, “We’re watching everything.” They’re doing it to manipulate it. It’s the fact that we want to protect the buyers and the sellers. If somebody is trying to get the better hand of the other, that’s not fair. At the end of the day, these things reflect on us. No one’s going to go and say, “That seller sucks.” It’s going be like, “Paperstac sucks.” This seller sucks, not us. That’s why we put these sensitivity reviews. We’ve watched for what happens.

I’ve been on these other sites and one of the questions I had was, “Differentiate yourself from where do you see Paperstac going?” These other sites are more broker in the sense of, “Here’s the asset. You can contact the seller back and forth.” It’s more like a meetup type than walking you through a transaction. Is that a correct statement?

There’s value in those, where you’re finding a deal that’s great. What we wanted to do is something different. We operate from a different standpoint. We’re a technology company. We’re like Uber to the taxi industry. We’re developers. We have the code. When someone says to do it, we do it in the sense of nothing’s impossible. A lot of times, with the other platforms, there might be an off the shelf type of software. They have what they have. That’s it. Our goal is to expand so that it’s different in the sense of the whole process. From the time you see the asset, you get on the site to the time you’re off the asset and you’re clicking another button to get the mortgage recording, the entire process is automated for you. It’s a different process.

At the end of the day, the goal is to be an efficiency product. People would say, “People can go around your platform if they want. They’ll find a buyer, or they’ll find a seller and they’ll go around you.” That’s true. If you’re a software that’s not providing a lot of value, how you combat that is you provide a ton of value to offset the reasoning for one to ever go offline. Our fees aren’t crazy. If we’re adding enough value to the transaction and we’re making it easy for you, why would you want to do that? Soon, we’ll have a mobile app. You can buy a mortgage note from your phone. There is value on the other sites. They do provide a marketplace in education, a lot of times too. They might have good assets. It’s just we operate differently. Ours is a technology-focused.

You’ve got the mobile app coming out. You’ve got partials coming in. I’m going to hound you to get CFDs out to develop at some point in time in the future.

There’s one lawyer. I’m trying to get him to reach back out to me so. It’s on my lap. I’ve mapped it. I’ve done everything I need to do. Mike is like, “I know what to do. I’m not going to figure it out for you. I’ll figure it out and get all the pieces and then I’ll do it.” He’s not going to jump in on that site. I’m doing fifteen different job titles right now, but I want this done. We know the industry wants it. It’s not that they’ve asked for it, it’s already there. They get in a transaction, there’s a CFD transaction going on and it’s like, “Sorry, we can still use our conversation portal, but you guys go ahead and do the deal offline.” We miss out on the money. That sucks. We brought it together. It’s not the whole transaction. They wouldn’t get the experience, so we don’t want to have that ability.

Is it strictly going to stay to secure a debt? Have you ever looked at unsecured debt like auto or credit card stuff? There are judgment marketplaces and other sites that are out there. You haven’t gotten that far. Are you trying to stay narrow and focused with secured first and seconds and stuff like that?

We had somebody bring a bunch of auto loans. At the same time, that’s too big of a focus. There’s still stuff we can still make for the mortgage note industry that’d be great. There are a lot of things we can do to make your life is easier and make the transactions better. We’ve got a lot to conquer in this one area. Plus too, we had somebody that had some loans, the buy here pay here stuff. I don’t know if I want to be associated with that. How does that look? What we have now, first position, second position, partials, and CFDs, that’s a lot of stuff. Commercial loans would be the only variation. It seems to be the commercial loan closing process is less work than an actual residential. I’m trying to team up with the right commercial note investor. If I had that person that can show me what it is and the contracts, but I’ve come from the marketing world. All of this stuff has been new to me.

What about transfer claims for bankruptcy? If there’s one in bankruptcy and somebody buys, you’ll do the assignment. Would you also look in the future of also doing that transfer of claim for that individual as well?

If it makes sense. I don’t know. We’re open to anything. We’re close to getting some funding. We’ve got ideas. We’ve got phase one, phase two and phase three.

Don’t worry, I’ll get on and I’ll start shooting the ideas and stuff. I’m not shy.

Please, send them to me because we have a list. We have a GitHub. I don’t know if you’re a developer or an engineer.

PaperStac: If somebody is trying to get the better hand of the other, then that’s not fair.

I’m an engineer.

We have an ongoing ticketing system where every two weeks, we do a sprint and we rake them. They keep asking for this. If there’s something that people ask for, I keep trying to push the CFD with the production line. It keeps getting pushed back. I’m like, “We’ll figure it out.” If they’re good ideas, we can create it. If it’s codable, if we can make it to the ones and zeros, it’s possible.

If you ever need a CFD to use as a test case to work through quirks and kinks and stuff, feel free to reach out to me. I’d be happy to use this test case for you to put up through the process. You’ll buy it from me.

That’s what quitclaim deeds are. They are baseball cards.

I think everyone was fascinated that there is no one left. They’re probably all heading over to Paperstac.

I’m going to go on and start.

You’re going to have 100 ideas for him tomorrow. Don’t even look at your inbox tomorrow.

Please send them in there. If you go there, there’s a chat box in the bottom right-hand corner. Hit it. I should be up for a little bit. I love ideas. We’re not joking. We were at Paper Source and two people walked up and said, “I couldn’t believe you did what I suggested.” I was like, “It was a good idea.” Say you had the pay history. Every time someone asks for it, we’d have to reshare it from Dropbox. We make it so that when they have the asset, if they put it there, they can go, “Click Make Public.” We were like, “We’ll make their own internal Dropbox to people.” “It’s a good idea.” “Why not?” I’d be more than happy to hear any comments. I also want to thank you for jumping in on the conversation on BiggerPockets. I woke up. I was like, “What’s going on here?” Thank you so much for being a part of that.

We have a question, “For new folks, can they go over to Paperstac and open a new account to view offerings?”

Do you even have to create a login to view what’s for sale or can you just look?

You can look but you’re not going to see addresses and stuff. We keep the stuff that’s sensitive, anything that’s breaking any rules. We’re going to change the way that looks. It used to be public. You can look around and get an idea based on the note details, if you click on an asset, go down and evaluate it. There’s one on there. I can’t promote assets anymore. I used to say, “Look at this asset.” That’s acting as a broker idea. They’re general, but there are reverse mortgages on there. There’s one that I’m like, “This is cool.”

If I put an asset up and I wanted to promote it, is there a service that you offer and that could be an additional fee where that’s at the top of the page or a banner or anything like that?

What I tried to push for a while was when you log in, it used to make people log out. They don’t want to be logged into that system where the featured asset would be shown next to the log in the stream. You’re always logged in. If Gail goes there, she’s already logged in. I put out assets of the week that have been uploaded. I’ve been trying to do it. It’s one of those things where, “We’ve got to be very careful how we do that.” Say it in the chat window so Mike sees it as well. When I see it, it’s like, “That’s cool.”

As a seller, Gail, you’ve got a $100,000 asset. We spent a few extra bucks to promote it to the top or something. Especially as it grows like right now, 100 assets, someone might be able to look through that in a short time. If all of a sudden you have a thousand assets on there and even sorting by state, that would be key to offer to sellers. Sometimes people might look at twenty of them and say, “I’ve already seen these twenty,” and pop off. If there’s some banner or if somebody could mail a featured asset. With the AI stuff, people can click on what states they like. Would it focus on those? If I like Indiana, somebody can promote something in Indiana. If someone is promoting something in Ohio, which I don’t like to invest in, that won’t pop on my screen. You could use some AI involved with that as well to cater to somebody when they log in, you know what they like already featured and then go to people who have those assets and say, “There’s much more. We can feature it on people who are interested in that state?”

In our legal world today, anyone can sue anyone at any time for anything. Click To Tweet

We’re going to have a conversation because I figured out how to do that. What you’re doing is you’re changing the URL structure of how those filters work. I can make marketing automation, Chris, based on the URL structures of the URL. I can save by filtering. If I see assets that are showing up with this filtering, I can promote it within the chat box. It’d pop up and say, “There’s an asset.”

Have you seen this one?

Yeah, thank you. I got some ideas now. That one I could solve myself. I can do that through marketing based off if they did this filter, I could send an automated email. There are things like that.

I feel like we need to let everyone get over to Paperstac.

I appreciate this. It’s nice to see you guys face-to-face. Thank you so much for having me on.

I had a great time on Paperstac. I think back about our conversation about CFDs and I kept wondering like, “Why are you having such a hard time?” I saw how much you were trying to do and take care of the process and I thought, “I get it.”

I also love the podcast. Chris, I have to ask, did you figure out what the deal is with the water?

For people who don’t know this story, Chris got a letter from the water department for one of your CFDs, telling you that there is excessive water use, 5,000 gallons a day for a person with no pool. People who have pools don’t have to refill them every day.

I won’t get too much in details because it is tied into legal aspects. The bill came to me, which shocked me because I didn’t expect it would come to me. I expected it to go to the borrower. They sent it to me. I’m concerned a little bit because it’s been very quiet. I’m hoping that the water wasn’t somehow turned back on.

He turned the lady’s water off because she was in no signs of being responsible. Plus, the meter was running.

It was half a million gallons of water.

Their instruction to the water department was to downturn her water back on until she pays. We don’t know what she was doing with the water at this point.

The bill came to me. The borrower made a mortgage payment. The mortgage payment came in. The water bill was a little more less than half of what they had initially told me. It has dropped from tens of thousands down. I’m going to have to work something out with the borrower on this one. This is one of the things that somebody called me. When I joked about you with your children stuff, we are pretty real in sharing the stories of the good, bad and ugly. I mentioned to Gail, I’m like, “We need to change from our beginning episode to good, bad and ugly and say things that are good, bad or ugly,” because the reality of it is when something good happens, you also have something bad or ugly happen as well.

“It’s never a dull moment,” that’s my motto.

PaperStac: When something good happens, you have something bad or ugly happen as well.

I was telling Gail that I was listening to that podcast on the way downtown to the office. I was like, “This is such a good story.” You guys are going back and forth. I was like, “This is hilarious.” I was sitting in the garage. I’ve got to go do things, but I was like, “I want to know how this ends.”

The irony is I have bitched a million times about my giant Flint Water Company bill that I got stuck with for $2,500.

Gail knows like, “Something’s churning. What’s churning?” You can get insurance on properties. Forced-placed insurance won’t cover something like this, but you can get insurance from water companies from the meter on in your property. Anything up to the meter, they have to take care of. If the leak is on the other side of the meter, water companies will offer insurance. People are saying, “How do you handle that? There’s nothing you can do.” I had the wheels churn. I’m like, “Wait a second.” I remember my house I’m in. When we built it, the day I got occupancy, a tax guy came to inspect the house and count the bedrooms and everything so they can send me my nice big fat tax bill. The water gets turned on. They’re like, “Would you like insurance on this?” You can get insurance on your water line for $100 a year. I’m sitting there thinking, “I’m at a point now where I have 75 active assets. A lot of them are CFDs or even on notes.” It’s like, “If you have a water bill like this on a $20,000 asset, it would be catastrophic in that sense.” Thankfully, it’s an asset that has six-figure value to it. If it’s not $5,000, to $10,000, you can still work with numbers if you ever had to munch on something like that. On $20,000 asset, you may have paid $8,000 to $9,000 for it and you get $5,000, $6,000 water bill.

Besides getting that in the mail, I got another notice to appear in front of a Neighborhood Ordinance Committee for violations because of a property I took back. There’s a shed on the property that has flaking paint and some debris on the roof. It’s like a 5×5 shed. Somebody who I had cleaned out the property, I sent him a text. I was like, “Can you go demo the shed?” You have a servicer, all the money coming in gets ACH, going there is like going to the dentist. It’s like, “What’s going to be in there now?” I feel like I’m Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory in reverse because you get the golden ticket from the post office at the PO Box. It’s like, “It’s certified.” It’s either a property violation or a tax wasn’t paid. It’s like, “What is it now?” In Lake County, Indiana, they have to send all of their tax bills. These are the fanciest-looking tax bills I have ever seen. Even the paper feels like expensive paper.

Thank you again, Brett. Thanks for everyone. Go to Paperstac and buy something. You won’t be sorry. Please make sure to subscribe to our podcast. Sign up for our mailing list at for an early look at every tape that we put out. Who knows how long we’ll keep putting them out that way? We might be on Paperstac from now on.

If we had certain members, can we early release assets on Paperstac?

You can. There’s a thing called a private community. There’s another person in the industry that’s using it now. They have a big emailing list. They put the assets in a private community. You would be able to send out an email. “Here’s my private community.” If you get that link, they can click it and it’s your own world. It’s the first crack at the tape. It’s like your own Paperstac. There are a couple of people who have asked for that. They want their buyers to see it. They want the software to do the rest. They don’t want everyone to go to a regular Paperstac. They want to see their stuff. We have a private community thing. You should look at it. If you’re going to your account, you can see there’s one thing that says “communities.” You can create a community and invite whomever. We’re trying to think of everything. People have asked for that.

Thank you, Brett.