A fraud story in our first BRRRR!

A fraud story in our first BRRRR!

Rental Property Investor · Member since 2018 · 46 posts · 64 votes

Hey guys, I want to share an interesting story with you, so newbies like myself remember to take extra care when selecting a contractor or anyone, really, for your team. My husband met this local contractor (let's call him Mike) at a showing of an MLS listing (Mike was showing on behalf of an owner). Coincidentally, we were looking for a contractor in that area for our first BRRRR, so my husband took him to our to-be-purchased property (under a contract) and got an estimate. He quoted much lower than other guys, said he was insured, and promised to show other projects he had worked on. We were back and forth with him for close to 3 weeks (all the due diligence period and more), creating SOW and contractor agreement (he didn't have any forms, so my husband had to sit down with him numerous times to create a detailed SOW and go over the specifics). Surprisingly, this guy was always available for these meetings - a rarity in the world contractors, who are always busy to pick up the phone, let alone to sit down for long meetings like that. We thought it was a bit strange, but who cares - his price was so good! What gave us real peace of mind was a meeting that took place at one of our rentals that was scheduled for the city inspection (and why waste time waiting for the inspector, when you can meet your contractor and discuss the SOW at the same time). The city inspector came in and immediately greeted Mike as an old acquaintance: "Heeeey man! How you been? You worked on this house?". Right away we knew this guy is golden if he has such rapport with the city inspection office! There was just one thing that was left to be done before we give him deposit - for Mike to send us a copy of his contractors license. My husband made a copy of the door key for him at Home Depot, so he wouldn't have to do that later, and we agreed to have the job started tomorrow, once he sends us a copy of the license and we pay the deposit. He looked a bit bummed that we wouldn't sign the contract and give him the check before he shows us his license, but promised to do that the same night.

That was the last time we saw Mike. We called a number of times, and he wouldn't pick up. After a week of calling, we figured the guy was unlicensed, decided to move on and called another contractor for an estimate. While he was working at the house on his estimate, a random guy showed up with some tools and said that his "landlord" rented this house to him and gave permission to store his tools at the garage (mind you, the property has no utilities and needs a complete rehab!) And who is this "landlord" who "rented" the place to him?... Yep, it's Mike! It turned out that the guy is currently renting from him and wanted to move, so Mike took him to our property like he's the owner, with the key we gave him, and told him that he can move in and work on this house while he lives there. Oh, and collected a deposit of $900 from the guy, too!!

We've been in touch with this guy, who filed a police report the same day we saw him. Since then we learned that Mike scammed another person by renting the second floor of our house. As if that's not enough, it turned out that the place that this guy was renting from Mike since November is not Mike's, as the actual owner (long-distance investor) showed up and was surprised to find an unknown tenant living at his investment property! The poor guy paid rent to Mike since November, thinking he is the landlord. Who knows how many more people were scammed by Mike this way! 

Lessons we learned: (1) don't trust an unknown contractor with access to the house before everything is verified and the contract is signed; 2) if the contractor's quote seems too good to be true, it probably is; 3) if you are a long-distance investor, have a team in place that can check on your property, or you may find a squatter living there next time you visit; 4) never give any money before everything is verified and the contract is signed (at least we were wise enough on this one!).

Do you have any stories like that for your rehabs?

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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
7y

If in your state a license is required you simply pop on the contractors board and see the license there active or not. or no license.. 

We may ask for a copy but the real due diligence is done on line with the regulating authority.  its quick simple and accurate. 

its a slippery slope this rehabbing..  to get the pricing you need you have to many times risk contactors that cant carry a job or require deposits before they start.. and sometimes they just steal your money.. it happens to all of us.

What i like about new construction.. is that every sub can carry the job.. and you dont pay them but once a month they buy all their own materials.. and you pay after inspections.. this is what MOST HML do these days as well. they pay for work in place.. this is why when folks look at HML they also need to have cash to float the rehab payment since contractor wants to be paid .. HML is 3 to 5 days later. and they reimburse you

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  • Rental Property Investor · Member since 2018 · 46 posts · 64 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Jim K.:

    @Account Closed

    Hi Alexandra, I once had a real estate agent I gave a key to for showings move an illegal migrant worker of his into one of my properties.

    This was, thankfully, not in this country.

     Jim, that's pretty crazy! I wouldn't expect this kind of thing from a real estate agent, aren't they risking losing their license for such action?

  • Investor · Punta Gorda, FL · Member since 2015 · 35 posts · 30 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:
    @Chuck Mader:

    You are so right, Chuck! And being available for all these meeting to create them- also a huge red flag. 

     I hope you get out of this ok and thank you for the write up so others can learn from it.  

  • Rental Property Investor · Member since 2018 · 46 posts · 64 votes
    7y
    @John Banaski:

    Thanks, John, a creative mind for sure. Could've been worse for us, so we are thankful it got caught early in the game.

  • Contractor · Pensacola, FL · Member since 2017 · 328 posts · 157 votes
    7y

    I swear. Im hoing back in the construction business when i retire. Honest contractors are in short supply. 

  • OH (ohio) · Member since 2016 · 63 posts · 43 votes
    7y
    @Alexandra Chaploutskiy that’s why I only buy in small towns and use the contractors in the small town.
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Nathan Gesner:

    If you think it's expensive to hire a professional, try hiring an amateur.

    I would have walked when he didn't have any forms. 

    His license could be verified by calling the City or checking their web site. I'm in a town of 9,000 in Wyoming and can find every licensed individual in the City or county, along with their contact information.

    Never hand over keys until all requirements are met.

    I also wouldn't accept the building inspectors recognition as verification of licensing. It could be they knew each other from school or that the building inspector recognized him from other scams.

    Thanks for sharing so others can avoid making the same mistake.

     I mentioned it above.. but for us it quite simple procedure.

    1.  my office first checks with the contractors board that takes all of 3 to 4 minutes.. you can see licenses active or not.. and also all the complaints filed against that license or individual.

    2. copy of insurance.. then a call to said insurance broker to see if its actually current and when it expires.. this goes into our builders software as a auto notification item.  IE we get a auto notice 30 days out of insurance expiring.

    What we find though in this part of the business.  Is many many of these guys are not licensed especially in some states. and really the only ones that are    are plumber and electrician.  other trades don't need it or just don't get it. 

  • Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    @Account Closed

    Hi Alexandra, I once had a real estate agent I gave a key to for showings move an illegal migrant worker of his into one of my properties.

    This was, thankfully, not in this country.

     Jim, that's pretty crazy! I wouldn't expect this kind of thing from a real estate agent, aren't they risking losing their license for such action?

    Yes, in decent places but at the time I wasn't in a decent place. I was in Athens, Greece in 2006, at the height of the general acceptance of corruption at all levels of society that would turn the country into a debt colony a few years later.

  • Real Estate Agent · Hilton Head & Bluffton SC · Member since 2019 · 15 posts · 13 votes
    7y

    I would add ask for a current drivers license as part of your due diligence before hiring. I had an issue with a sub contractor whose name did match that of a licensed contractor with a nice website, lots of great reviews etc.. however it turned out to be a family member's license and my guy had no credentials and was working under their name unbeknownst to them. I made the mistake of hiring him without seeing his license, he had a good excuse for not having it on him, I was in a bind, and he references were more than happy to talk about how awesome he was. It was a big mistake, which ended up being a costly one. Lesson learned! 

    The drivers license is also a small preventative measure against theft, fraud etc...

  • New to Real Estate · Nashville, TN · Member since 2015 · 1 post · 1 vote
    7y

    @Alexandra Chaploutskiy

    Wow I’m sorry y’all had to go through that ish... that’s crazy!

  • Henry R.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Saratoga County, NY · Member since 2013 · 178 posts · 73 votes
    7y

    @Account Closed

    You were wise in not giving any money up front. Thanks for sharing it gives us all a reminder to be on guard all the time.

  • Real Estate Agent · Cupertino, CA · Member since 2016 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    You meet the phony contractor who showed you a house or met someone who claimed he was a contractor with no proof he was?  Both require licenses to show or give quotes.

    Throughout your encounter I spotted 3 or 4 redflags.  Check out their background. On Contractors we always use referral and have them checked out. Some are not what you think and that is the way the business operates.


  • Investor · Palos Verdes, CA · Member since 2018 · 9 posts · 3 votes
    7y

    Thank you for sharing this story. It's an important lesson for long distance / OOS investor. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Erie, PA · Member since 2018 · 6k+ posts · 9k+ votes
    7y

    I know there are some good ones out there , but I’ve had better luck with unlicensed handymen doing my work than licensed insured “ professional “ contractors . Maybe it’s my dumb luck but it seems like every time I get screwed it’s by one of the pros . In this business I’d rather have good referrals from other other local investors than positive online reviews and all the right paperwork .

  • New to Real Estate · Chicago, IL · Member since 2017 · 7 posts · 4 votes
    7y

    @Alexandra Chaploutskiy

    Thanks for sharing the story with us, so us newbies know what to watch out for! Glad you didn’t give him the deposit. Good luck.

  • Rental Property Investor · Closter, NJ · Member since 2015 · 884 posts · 722 votes
    7y

    Also remember to get proof of liability insurance.

  • Rental Property Investor · Member since 2018 · 26 posts · 9 votes
    7y

    @Account Closed I’m in jc... yeah the scam artist are out there. There is a guy that I see all the time doing work and he had took two different neighbors down the street from my rental property for a ride. Every time I see him I point him out to others. He does concrete work and does the bait and switch. Sell the job for x and does y. If you want x that will be more money. If they don’t pay more he does y and moves on. I wish it was legal to shoot these people... non productive part of society...

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Buford, GA · Member since 2018 · 27 posts · 5 votes
    7y

    @Alexandra Chaploutskiy

    Thank you for sharing.

    An eyes opening story.

  • Kent, OH · Member since 2019 · 71 posts · 48 votes
    7y

    I am sorry that you had to deal with this. Honest people are in short supply and we all have to do our due diligence as customers as well as service providers.

  • Member since 2019 · 1 post · 0 votes
    7y

    Not true!

  • Investor · Nashville, TN · Member since 2015 · 7 posts · 5 votes
    7y

    there’s always a reason for a cheap price, you get what you pay for. Sorry this happened to you but glad you learned and didn’t get burned too bad!

  • Developer · Tampa, FL · Member since 2018 · 16 posts · 3 votes
    7y

    @Account Closed That is GREAT advise.  Start with a small job and a carrot for more later.  If you're new to the business don't just give anyone the whole house to do without checking references.  Your only as good as the last job, I was told early on.  References, references, references.

  • Columbus, OH · Member since 2018 · 218 posts · 134 votes
    7y

    Thanks for sharing! Always good to have a reminder to stay on our toes!

  • Investor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2017 · 523 posts · 476 votes
    7y

    Jeez, "Mike" put some serious effort into this scam. Glad you didn't give him a deposit etc. Honestly, as much respect as I have for good contractors and tradespeople, finding a good one in this business is not easy. It can be done, but for sure it takes time and effort. 

  • Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    I always thought that new and untested contractors are a big risk.  I have tempered my growth because of this.  One of the best ways is to get a referral from someone you know.  Another, is to test a new contractor with a smaller job.

    I've been ripped off by a new contractor, but it was a trial run.  He disappeared after a deposit, but it was a minor loss.  I was still infuriated.

    Thanks for sharing.  You're helping people realize this risk and be careful.

  • Investor · Northern Wisconsin · Member since 2018 · 18 posts · 9 votes
    7y

    WOW is right....people's ideas on how to make money are interesting!

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