Pennsylvania Sheriff's Sale & Foreclosure Process

Pennsylvania Sheriff's Sale & Foreclosure Process

Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2015 · 179 posts · 115 votes

Since I struggled so mightily in finding information about the Pennsylvania foreclosure and sheriff's sale process, I wanted to create a thread going through the process in detail in hopes that this may help someone down the road.

First, I've been looking into a property that's on my street (I'll post some info on the analysis I did and update it with progress) for quite some time now as it sat vacant. Finally, a notice was posted on the window that it was going up for Sheriff's sale. Intrigued, I looked into it for weeks and eventually convinced my wife to bid on the property - which we won. However, there are numerous things I learned throughout the process that I'd like to share:

1) The sheriff's sale is the legal process through which the bank (or foreclosing/selling entity - i.e. tax authority, lender, HOA) is able to regain title to the home. So, in many cases, when you go to the sheriff's sale, you're actually going to be bidding against some form of bank representation. Something I found during this process was that if you do your homework, you can determine the attorney that is representing the bank and who will be at the sale. In this instance, I actually convinced the attorney to tell me the bank's highest bid price so we knew exactly how to bid.

2) The bank will, in some cases, win the auction and then proceed to make any repairs on the home and list the property for sale. This is when the home becomes "REO" and is listed on the multi-list as a bank foreclosure. So, in this case, we were able to cut the bank out of the middle time period. There are, I'm sure, a ton of factors which will determine how much the bank will bid. In this instance, the home was FHA, so the bank (again, I'm assuming) didn't have much incentive to actually bid up the price because they're going to paid back through mortgage insurance.

3) The sheriff's sale was held in the hallway - yes, the hallway, of the courthouse. In some instances, it's held on the steps out front.

4) The bid is completely like a auction. It starts at one price and is literally auctioned off to the highest bidder - I don't know why but I thought it was more formal.

5) In PA, you must be 10% of the purchase price down immediately, that day. You only need your driver's license and a check. The additional 90% is due within 20 days of the auction. This gives you time to get funds in order and complete any other necessary items. For us, this means finalizing our business set up, business account, and aligning money.

6) I do think we made a mistake though. We did not do a formal legal title search before the sale. While this is a very low priced home so we don't have too much of a deposit at risk, I do think we should have completed the search before the sale. However, based on the current information that I know about the previous owner and all of the online research I was able to do, we should have a clean title.

All told, this was, at very worst a great learning experience, and at best it's a great deal and should make for a great flip.

What experiences do you have with Sheriff's sales? How does the process work in your state? Any advice on getting the title search/other work done before the actual sale?

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Developer · Ottawa, Ontario · Member since 2014 · 212 posts · 169 votes
10y

A few questions and comments:

1) Is the sale a bank REO or a tax sale? You need to look at the deed specifically.

2) Did the Sherriff serve the original owner properly? The Sherriff's office in Philly is notorious for doing a bad job of serving the owners. That may give the original owner a right of redemption period.

3) In the case of a tax sale, the right of redemption period is 6 months after the sale. If they were not served, the right of redemption period extends to 21 years. There is no right of redemption on vacant land.

4) There may be other liens on the property. Some may get wiped out. Yes, you need to do your title work. If some of the liens are utilities, you may be able to negotiate them. I've been successful in getting a 50% discount in the past. 

5) Title insurance can be difficult to get on Sherriff Sale properties. Some title companies will only insure after a 12 month "waiting period". Without title insurance, no bank will loan funds.

Feel free to contact me if you have further questions. I routinely buy properties from the Sherriff sale, and yes, it can be complex. Hope that helps.

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  • Ian WalshBusiness Member
    Lender · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    I frequently fund projects for investors at our local sales.  You are correct in that doing a prelim title search is a good idea.  There are a few areas to look out for, but for the most part, the hardest part is viewing all of the properties in a drive by before the sale.  You are not supposed to go into the properties but a drive by is always good.

  • Mechanicsburg, PA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    Sure, in one case that went to court to decide, the notice was sent to something like: "Smith Robert".  All on the notices were sent with last name first then first name last.  That was NOT the problem.  The judge rules that there was a comma missing and it should have read "Smith, Robert" and over turned the sale based on faulty notice.

    In another case TWO certified mail letters were sent each one requiring the signature of either the husband or the wife.  The post office is supposed to have each individual sign.  The wife signed both, and gave sworn testimony in court that she never told her husband, there fore he did NOT have notice and supposedly never knew of the tax sale, so the sale was overturned.

    Notice was sent to a nationally known big 4 bank at an address where the bank had closed their office.  The mail was not forwarded, as the closing/move was over 1 year ago.  The mail was removed, so at a tax sale where all the liens are supposed to be removed, the bank's mortgage was not removed and the buyer either bought the property subject to the bank mortgage or the sale was reversed, and it was the BANK's choice.

    Two lenders had similar names, like one was Southwest Bank and the other was Southwest Savings Bank.  One bank was from CA, the other was from FL.  There was no connection to the two banks.  Notice was sent to one of the banks and not the other for the same property, because it was thought that the two banks were one entity. So one bank's mortgage was wiped out and the others was NOT.

    The record owner of the property died in 1910, that's no typo, yes the owner died 100 years ago.  Without a séance, its pretty hard to give proper notice to the current owner who died in 1910. (I might add the owner was never married, had no children, and never had a recorded will.)      

  • Mechanicsburg, PA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    @Steve Babiak and @Christian Bors

    btw I am speaking on Tax Sales at the SF Bay Summit on August 27, 2016, and have extensively written about Tax Sales on Bigger Pockets and in other published material.

  • Real Estate Agent · Beaver, PA · Member since 2015 · 75 posts · 17 votes
    10y

    I have not purchased a foreclosure at sheriff sale, but I have purchased a judicial tax sale property here in Beaver County.  It's a great way to get low price properties although quite competitive and at judicial all liens are wiped out except federal tax liens.   I did run into an issue with the title insurance when selling, even after holding for 3 years.  Lender demanded a Quiet Title which is quite costly and time consuming.  I was able to talk them out of it for this instance, but I know others who have had to have it done to the tune of $2000 and 4 months wait.  So that's something you have to be aware of when buying that type of sale.  Title insurance companies won't touch it during the first 12 months.  

    @James Triano Hello Neighbor! FYI-you can find some great, inexpensive courses ($99 each) written by  Pittsburgh Real Estate Attorney Brad Dornish at Dornish.net.  I know he has one about Sheriff sales and also title searching.  I have purchased several and they are easy to read and very informative.  (No, I don't get kickback, lol)

  • Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2015 · 179 posts · 115 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Justin K.:

    @James Triano 

    @Matt F.

    I have been to a few sheriff sales in my county.  Never bought anything there yet, but I am looking at buying some properties at tax sale soon.  

    My experience has been that the bank hires a local attorney who shows up with a list of properties that he has been hired to buy.  When the sheriff offers them for sale he bids 'costs' on them.  Cost is just the fees that the sheriff charges to serve the papers.  If anyone tries to bid above 'costs' he then immediately bids what the banks max bid is.  I always assumed this is the current mortgage amount owed, but it may not be. If someone bids more than that he shuts up and they typically win the bid.  

    I am curious as well how the sheriff can offer the property for sale (tax or sheriff sale) without serving proper notice.  That is the first time I have came across that concern.  I am even more curious as to how you know if they did of not?

    I would also encourage others to make sure that they are developing their team!  My mentor gave me a name of a closing agency that he had done 30+ deals with (we are both buy and hold investors).  I have done a deal with them and they are FABULOUS!!! I still work a W2 job and I signed the closing papers on the street corner of my office building on my lunch break one time.  With the upcoming tax sale I called this closing agency to see what it would cost to run a title search on a few properties (I am looking at a property and my parents are looking at buying the neighbors).   Because of my relationship with him and my mentors past relationship with the closing agency, they offered to do the search and just tell us the results verbally without charging us a fee.  No insurance or anything, but the title work will have been done and done right.  

    Hope this helps!  Would love to hear how others are fairing with these. My personal thoughts are that the risk is slightly higher (buying sight unseen, if you have to evict the current occupant they may trash the place, etc.), but if you do your homework (title search, etc.) you can get GREAT deals here.

     Thanks for the post!  I completely agree with the point on building your team.  We have a great guy here locally that does our title searches (my brother-in-law and father-in-law use him all the time).  I think we've found a great deal here but this is an on-going purchase so I'll keep everyone updated on how this turns out.  Fingers crossed. 

  • Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2015 · 179 posts · 115 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Christian Bors:

    seems like a lot of red flags are popping off. You should always do a title search before you purchase a property. There could be huge liens hence you bought the property cheaply. Maybe it was so cheap because other people did a search and saw 100k in liens. In that case, there is a high chance you would be responsible! Unless it's a judicial sale, but as you stated earlier it is not. Second, it's not uncommon if sheriff didn't notify the current homeowner, bank or anyone else who legally needs to be identified. You shouldn't partake in these games if you don't know the rules. By no means am I an expert. All I know is I sure wouldn't play if I don't the rules. I've heard some bad stories. Also, I believe in order to get title insurance you have to do a quit claim and trace down the pervious owner. Or you could sue them, but it's not easy and you need to hire an attorney. I would look into getting title insurance right away. Without it, your buyers market will shrink drastically.

    @david krulac is an expert. Maybe he will share some insight. 

     Thanks for your input Christian. 

  • Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2015 · 179 posts · 115 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Steve Babiak:
    Originally posted by @Chris Miles:

    What I have seen is the bank always bids the amount owed so then every bid after that is money for the bank. If no one bids then the bank wins the property and zeros out the account to sell the property as an REO.

    Then you haven't seen enough of these; in undesirable neighborhoods in the suburbs, the bank's maximum bid will frequently be below the debt that was owed. 

    Something of interest here - when doing property search I found exactly what the judgement is from the bank. It's well over $100k. However, the bank went to the sheriff's sale and only bid up to $30k (they're owed the $100k). This particular loan was FHA though so they should be getting reimbursed from mortgage insurance required on the loan. This may be a case where it's very easy for a bank to bid well below what they're owed because of the insurance. Thanks for the input!

  • Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2015 · 179 posts · 115 votes
    10y

    @Steve Babiak

    Can't thank you enough for your input here! Your info on the redemption period is certainly helpful as this is exactly what I've found so far.  

    What I've found confusing in many of the posts here is the question of getting title insurance.  I can certainly see that title insurance would be an issue in situations of TAX liens.  Considering right of redemption, the title would certainly be cloudy.  However, in a situation when the bank is foreclosing and buying at the sheriff's sale, their lien should be completely satisfied and we should own a clean title - pending the completion of our title search.  

    Of course, now I know to do the title search up front instead of waiting until after the sale.  Thanks again for your input and reference to the other thread!

  • Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2015 · 179 posts · 115 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Ian Walsh:

    I frequently fund projects for investors at our local sales.  You are correct in that doing a prelim title search is a good idea.  There are a few areas to look out for, but for the most part, the hardest part is viewing all of the properties in a drive by before the sale.  You are not supposed to go into the properties but a drive by is always good.

     Absolutely Ian.  One of the hardest parts was just trying to determine the best purchase price.  We essentially estimated the high-end for all repair work to determine our max bid price.  We were lucky enough to be able to bid that price.  You make a great point though, thanks!

  • Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2015 · 179 posts · 115 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Jeanni Prescan:

    I have not purchased a foreclosure at sheriff sale, but I have purchased a judicial tax sale property here in Beaver County.  It's a great way to get low price properties although quite competitive and at judicial all liens are wiped out except federal tax liens.   I did run into an issue with the title insurance when selling, even after holding for 3 years.  Lender demanded a Quiet Title which is quite costly and time consuming.  I was able to talk them out of it for this instance, but I know others who have had to have it done to the tune of $2000 and 4 months wait.  So that's something you have to be aware of when buying that type of sale.  Title insurance companies won't touch it during the first 12 months.  

    @James Triano Hello Neighbor! FYI-you can find some great, inexpensive courses ($99 each) written by  Pittsburgh Real Estate Attorney Brad Dornish at Dornish.net.  I know he has one about Sheriff sales and also title searching.  I have purchased several and they are easy to read and very informative.  (No, I don't get kickback, lol)

     Thanks for the information and howdy neighbor!  Thanks for the reference for those courses, I'll certainly take a look!

  • Mechanicsburg, PA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    @Jeanni Prescan @James Triano

    Title insurance at PA tax sales is a BIG issue.  Without a Quiet title Action, (a lawsuit) or a Quit Claim Deed from the former owner, most title companies will not issue title insurance, which means you can't sell the property or get the property refinanced.

    I have one now where the former owner purposely and intentionally abandoned the property in the 1990s and I can't get title insurance.

    The notice is the chief way that Tax Sales are attacked and they are very successful at attacking, you only have to look at court lawsuits to see that.

    There's a greater chance that you will get burned than there is that you'll make a ton of money.  Any improvements that you make, other than something like fix a leaky roof, can not be recovered, if you subsequently lose the property back to the former owner or the former owners heirs.

    I've seen properties with multiple tax sales in their chain of title, ALL of the tax sales need to be cleared, not just the most recent one.

    Many counties even for judicial sales only do one owner searches instead of full title searches so they can save money of searches.  That means any problem any lien any mortgage still transfers to the new buyer even at a free and clear sale.

    btw there is no redemption at tax claim tax sales in PA.

  • Lender · Greater LA/Orange County area, CA · Member since 2012 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    The would-be property buyer has some work to do.

    First, understand the type auction that they're participating in and the budding rules.

    Next, they should have a clear working knowledge and understanding of title laws in that state and where the codes are found for further research. 

    Due diligence is the research you perform prior to pulling the trigger when the money goes "hard." Most tax auctions require the bidders to commit all or a substantial amount if money in order to bid on a given asset.

    Due process is what owners and excluded claimants whose rights and benefits were adversely affected, petition judges to reverse sales. 

    If you are a owner/heir/secured creditor, you seek to protect your rights. If you are a judge, you seek to stay in office. 

    Like the song says,'I'd like to help you Son but you're too young (or live out of state) to vote.' That's part of the political facts-of-life a would-be investor/bidder must also live with when attempting to acquire a super-bargain at a tax or mortgage foreclosure auction.

    "One way or another, you're going to get an education."

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Allentown, PA · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 701 votes
    10y

    @James Triano

    Typically I'm looking simply at recorded mortgages vs. satisfactions. I want to be sure first position is foreclosing. On homes that were purchased in say 2010, it's a relatively straightforward process. They took out a loan, it's unsatisfied, and that lender (or the person the mortgage was assigned to) is the one foreclosing. On older homes say from 1970, there can be a lot of mortgages to sort through. In both counties near me, I've seen the attorney announce specifically that it's a second lien, to avoid people not following through on the purchase. Bottom line is if it sounds way too good to be true, it probably is. 

    Keep in mind that lenders are not in the business of buying and selling real estate, they are in the business of lending money. 

  • Title Representative · Cherry Hill, NJ · Member since 2015 · 48 posts · 31 votes
    10y
    Good afternoon all: I have worked for Mortgage foreclosure attorneys for the past 17 years. While I have never purchased a property at sheriff's sale, I have a firm understanding of how these sales work from a legal perspective and how the lenders come up with their bids etc. there is a ton of great information in this thread (IMO). However, there are some errors and misconceptions. If anyone has any specific questions, please send me a message. I would be happy to answer or get you going in the right direction. Happy investing.
  • Flipper/Rehabber · Allentown, PA · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 701 votes
    10y

    @Chris Miles

    I pull my own "title search" but that is separate from any title policy I purchase where they run their own title search. They're not relying on what I tell them to issue a title policy. 

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Mark Gallagher:

    @James Triano

    ... In both counties near me, I've seen the attorney announce specifically that it's a second lien, to avoid people not following through on the purchase. ... 

    The thing to remember is that you can't rely on the attorney disclosing lien position, because the law and rules of the sheriff sale do not require that.  I have seen seconds go unannounced, and one of the big-time buyers bought one of those not too long ago;  they ended up dealing with the senior mortgage that was also foreclosing.

    And I have seen crazy bidding even when it WAS announced that the second lien position was foreclosing ...

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Greg Wilkins:

    Good afternoon all:

    I have worked for Mortgage foreclosure attorneys for the past 17 years. While I have never purchased a property at sheriff's sale, I have a firm understanding of how these sales work from a legal perspective and how the lenders come up with their bids etc. there is a ton of great information in this thread (IMO). However, there are some errors and misconceptions.

    If anyone has any specific questions, please send me a message. I would be happy to answer or get you going in the right direction.

    ...

    One of the great things about this being a public forum is that everybody can contribute content - whether that content is correct or not.  And one of the even better things is that knowledgeable persons such as yourself recognize errors and misconceptions; it gets even better when those errors and misconceptions are made public right here so that the readers can be properly informed rather than misinformed.

    So please feel free to point out posts where corrections are in order by using the "Quote" operation (found as one of the menu items if you click on the three dots beside the post), and then inform us all of the correction that is in order.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Allentown, PA · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 701 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Steve Babiak:
    Originally posted by @Mark Gallagher:

    @James Triano

    ... In both counties near me, I've seen the attorney announce specifically that it's a second lien, to avoid people not following through on the purchase. ... 

    The thing to remember is that you can't rely on the attorney disclosing lien position, because the law and rules of the sheriff sale do not require that.  I have seen seconds go unannounced, and one of the big-time buyers bought one of those not too long ago;  they ended up dealing with the senior mortgage that was also foreclosing.

    And I have seen crazy bidding even when it WAS announced that the second lien position was foreclosing ...

    Great point, thanks Steve.. In my head I knew what I was pointing out, but didn't relay the message well!

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Allentown, PA · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 701 votes
    10y

    To clarify an earlier post, when I do MY "title search" I only go back one owner.

  • Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2015 · 179 posts · 115 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Mark Gallagher:

    @James Triano

    Typically I'm looking simply at recorded mortgages vs. satisfactions. I want to be sure first position is foreclosing. On homes that were purchased in say 2010, it's a relatively straightforward process. They took out a loan, it's unsatisfied, and that lender (or the person the mortgage was assigned to) is the one foreclosing. On older homes say from 1970, there can be a lot of mortgages to sort through. In both counties near me, I've seen the attorney announce specifically that it's a second lien, to avoid people not following through on the purchase. Bottom line is if it sounds way too good to be true, it probably is. 

    Keep in mind that lenders are not in the business of buying and selling real estate, they are in the business of lending money. 

     This is very much the situation I have.. it's a home purchased in 2009.  I can certainly see there being issues for homes purchased prior.  As I researched, I became comfortable with the mortgage documents and that the first mortgage holder is foreclosing. 

    Thanks for pointing out the lender motivation here - it's important to remember that the lenders are not flippers but are just looking at the best financial way to unload the property. 

  • Investor · San Juan Bautista, CA · Member since 2016 · 9 posts · 2 votes
    10y

    I would think: You should form a relationship with a title company (s) and use them every time to do you title search the title company can do a thorough job for you.

  • Princeton, NJ · Member since 2016 · 44 posts · 22 votes
    10y

    I've got a newbie question, which I apologize in advance for.

    If you go on the Philly Sheriff's website, you get a list of properties with some general info. When you click on a specific property and then "distributions" you get a category called "Real Debt". In this case, the "Real Debt" is $368,288/78 and this is a mortgage foreclosure. So if one were to purchase this property at the auction, let's say at a winning bid of $100,000 would you be required to pay this "Real Debt" or is it cleared as part of the auction? Basically, would your total cost be $100,000 or $468,300?

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    ...

    If you go on the Philly Sheriff's website, you get a list of properties with some general info. When you click on a specific property and then "distributions" you get a category called "Real Debt". In this case, the "Real Debt" is $368,288/78 and this is a mortgage foreclosure. So if one were to purchase this property at the auction, let's say at a winning bid of $100,000 would you be required to pay this "Real Debt" or is it cleared as part of the auction? Basically, would your total cost be $100,000 or $468,300?

    Let us assume for simplicity sake that there is only the one mortgage attached to the property in question. You would only pay the amount of the winning bid; the lender can bid higher if there is a desire or need for the lender to be paid more. So when the lender is not bidding at least the amount of the debt, the lender is basically willing to settle for less (kind of like a short sale).

    Now, assume that more than one mortgage is in place. If the mortgage being foreclosed is not the first / more senior mortgage, then the winning bidder has to deal with any more senior liens in order to convey clear title in the event of a sale. 

  • Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2015 · 179 posts · 115 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Steve Babiak:
    Originally posted by @Greg Wilkins:

    Good afternoon all:

    I have worked for Mortgage foreclosure attorneys for the past 17 years. While I have never purchased a property at sheriff's sale, I have a firm understanding of how these sales work from a legal perspective and how the lenders come up with their bids etc. there is a ton of great information in this thread (IMO). However, there are some errors and misconceptions.

    If anyone has any specific questions, please send me a message. I would be happy to answer or get you going in the right direction.

    ...

    One of the great things about this being a public forum is that everybody can contribute content - whether that content is correct or not.  And one of the even better things is that knowledgeable persons such as yourself recognize errors and misconceptions; it gets even better when those errors and misconceptions are made public right here so that the readers can be properly informed rather than misinformed.

    So please feel free to point out posts where corrections are in order by using the "Quote" operation (found as one of the menu items if you click on the three dots beside the post), and then inform us all of the correction that is in order.

     Great point Steve - I'm grateful for the input 

    Also, I've read where you discuss about Allegheny county being a "second class" county and don't worry, I don't take any offense to that - now if we were talking football this might be different, haha.  Thanks again for your help here!

  • Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2015 · 179 posts · 115 votes
    10y

    @Account Closed could help you out.  They're from the other side of the state. 

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