Anybody familiar with Keystone Funding Network?

73 Replies

Disclosure: I work for KFN

Hey everyone, time for another update. 

I understand skepticism. But some of you are so far off base in spite of attempts to clarify, that I think some comments might help.

First, we have three requirements. Not a whole list as someone mentioned. This does exclude 80% of flippable properties, but then either way you probably shouldn't be touching that 80% anyways. Simple risk management. The "requirements" we have are fairly universal. Minimum profit requirement ($50k), rehab cannot exceed purchase price and under $600k ARV (we don't touch luxury homes because of DOM. Same for historical homes for that matter). That's it. THREE qualifiers. Are they easy to find? No of course not, that's where field partners come into play. We wouldn't need to share profits if they were easy to find.

Second, someone said we don't give property examples. Odd, as our facebook page has a few dozen.

Third, if you don't want to do a membership based version of creative funding, you have plenty of alternatives. You can set up your own creative version of a partnership, and depending on what you bring to the table (time, experience, funding) you can probably find a matching partner. If you have little to no cash, if you lack experience, if you have bad credit, well then that partnership is going to be a struggle. That's why we are an alternative our members are excited to be partnered with. You can of course also do traditional funding (banks): 20% down, qualifying credit and take 100% of the risk and manage the rehab yourself. Or hard money lending, which has similar cash up front requirements and also is all about the money (they don't help with the deal, it's all about cash). 

Fourth, someone asked to talk to someone who is actually flipping with us. I believe a few people in the forum are our members and have tried to comment. Not sure how many would be enough? They tried to help without broadcasting their personal information and getting heaven know who contacting them to prove something they are part of but don't promote for a living, like our office staff. 

Fifth (i was only thinking it was going to be three but here we are) some of you are referring to rejection numbers. Where are you getting those from? We don't have a single member in all these years who got anywhere close to 20 deals rejected. I don't even think we have a member who had half that. We work hard to help people understand what they are looking for. Besides, if rejection is a turnoff then don't try getting funding from a bank or hard money lender, and I frankly think you shouldn't go into Real Estate. 

Finally, it if you are advertising your own company you probably shouldn't be giving negative reviews, especially if you never even talked to us. From your comments it seems you didn't even look at our website or social media and our contact records show we never talked to you. 

If you have any questions, feel free to contact us directly. Get first hand information:) 

@Arno Karssen I spoke with a Stacie Mansell from KFN last week (6-25-18). She told me that I only needed $1,500 to get started. $500 for Earnest Money (that I would get back after the property sold) & $1,000 for the 1st monthly Membership Fee. But if I'm not mistaken (bc she was talking pretty fast) after that was paid it would be something like $2,500 a month for membership fees. Also, I was told that I would NOT be making any profit from the 1st deal, a very small profit from the 2nd deal and then the 3rd deal I would be actually finally splitting the profit in half with KFN. Which tbh, as long as someone helps me by giving me a chance to fulfill my dreams of starting my own REI Business I'm perfectly fine not making a profit on the first property and little for the 2nd. From my understanding it's KFN's way of gaining a working trust with me, so I totally get that. My ONLY concern atm is .... If I won't be making any profit from the 1st deal and very little profit from the 2nd deal, how am I ever going to be able to afford a monthly charge of $2,500? I mean after I start making profits I am more then happy to pay that monthly fee. But to start charging these incredibly high monthly fees if no money has been made on my end makes it almost impossible to keep up with those charges. I mean did I misunderstand Stacie when she was explaining it all to me?

Originally posted by @Heidi Hatter :

I am very interested and currently following this thread. I am frustrated at moment, my fiancee joined KFN about a month ago now its feeling like a scam. Emails answered untimely, POF banks and realtors have had extremely difficult verifying. Have 2 deals on table approved stage one just dont want payout more $ for verification on stage 2 if this is BS

My fiancee and I enrolled in their program a few months back and and went all in with their $13,500 program in order to split profits 50% on every deal. 

We were told they have researched the Chicago area and safely determined there's at least $20,000,000 of real estate that meets their criteria. 

After looking at well over 150 properties myself (pre-foreclosure, probate, wholesalers, etc) and talking to dozens and dozens of investors who are very experienced in the Chicago market as well as a couple of brokers that specialize in investment properties and move 1,200+ REO properties per year, I've been told by every single one of them that deals with this criteria are almost non-existent in this market.

In speaking with one of KFN's own people I was told they only know of one deal that's been done in Chicago that meets their criteria.

This is smelling very, very much "scammy".

When asking one of their people about getting a refund because we've found no properties that meet their criteria and have gained no value whatsoever from their program, we were initially told that there's a 3 day right to rescind and after that all sales are final.

I've sent email to their CEO and have yet to receive a response.

I'd like to believe that companies still do business with integrity and do the right thing and give a refund when a customer is dissatisfied with their product/service. Hopefully I won't be disappointed with these guys.

Stay tuned

Just got off the phone with one of their associates and at first I was not told about the upfront cost. Then I was hit with a 13500 sales pitch. When I questioned what that was for he said oh It seems like you wouldnt be able to afford this anyway. He then said this program wouldnt be a good fit for you. He was extremely rude and I wouldnt do business with them just based off his attitude. This is the same model as do hard money and I cant find anybody who has said anything positive about any of them. 

I had an interview with a representative of this company today. Here’s a summary of our conversation:

1)Investment options

a.)Invest $7,500.00 (one-time fee) for profit sharing opportunity of 25% (for the investor) and 75% (for Wealth 212). They will cover all costs, purchase and rehab, here after. Just sit back and collect commission check!

b.)Invest $13,500.00 (again, one-time fee) for 50%/50% profit sharing opportunity.

c.)All profits should be up to and/or surpass $50,000.00 per flip.

d.) Purchase prices cannot exceed $600,000.00 and renovation cost cannot exceed $100,000.00.

2) Every investor will be assigned to a specific geographic area that no one else “can farm in”.

3)The company was looking for “motivated and hungry” investors in my area to open new markets. 

4) My questions that went unanswered or not satisfactorily answered to clear my doubts: 

     a.) How can I verify that your claims are true?

      Answer: “I don’t have any more proof than what I am telling you. You should remember that our industry is heavily regulated and, besides, you will be protected by your credit card company if you thought the offer we are giving you was not what it is.”

      b.) Am I going to manage approved projects once renovation starts?

           Answer: “No, but you’d need to be present while we obtain 3 contract bids from 3 separate contractors. You might also need to check on the renovation projects from time to time. But we have well experienced project managers who will supervise all rehabs.”

     c.) Do I need to put deals under contract before submitting for funding approval?

         Answer: "yes"

     d.)What is your rejection rate for submitted deals?

Answer: “I don’t know. But say you submitted 10 deals, it is possible that we’d approve all 10 deals. Big profits for you, right?” I answered “yes, sure”.

    e.)If I understood you well, did you say that I do not need to pay for any appraisals and inspections on any approved deals? Financing both purchase and renovation costs 100%?

Answer: “You’re a fast leaner, my friend! Yes, we finance everything 100%, and you’d make 25% or 50% profit. Depending on what level you’d commit to today.”

Conclusion:

I politely informed the guy (I think his name was Brandon) that I was not convinced from what he’d explained. So I would rather continue to flip one house at a time to build my cash base overtime. His approach changed a bit upon hearing my decision. But he quickly reduced the required investment to $3,000.00 with no additional details about what is expected from a new investor. I simply declined and opted to look into the company more until there’s evidence that they are legit.

Disclaimer:

I do not intend to say that Wealth 212 or Keystone Funding Network is a scam or fraud. I simply refused to invest with them because I did not believe the sales person on the other end of the line. In fact, I might invest with them in the future if I find someone who has done profitable deals with them. For now, I’d pass.

Disclosure: I work for KFN

Originally posted by @Brian Frasier :

@Arno Karssen I spoke with a Stacie Mansell from KFN last week (6-25-18). She told me that I only needed $1,500 to get started. $500 for Earnest Money (that I would get back after the property sold) & $1,000 for the 1st monthly Membership Fee. But if I'm not mistaken (bc she was talking pretty fast) after that was paid it would be something like $2,500 a month for membership fees. Also, I was told that I would NOT be making any profit from the 1st deal, a very small profit from the 2nd deal and then the 3rd deal I would be actually finally splitting the profit in half with KFN. Which tbh, as long as someone helps me by giving me a chance to fulfill my dreams of starting my own REI Business I'm perfectly fine not making a profit on the first property and little for the 2nd. From my understanding it's KFN's way of gaining a working trust with me, so I totally get that. My ONLY concern atm is .... If I won't be making any profit from the 1st deal and very little profit from the 2nd deal, how am I ever going to be able to afford a monthly charge of $2,500? I mean after I start making profits I am more then happy to pay that monthly fee. But to start charging these incredibly high monthly fees if no money has been made on my end makes it almost impossible to keep up with those charges. I mean did I misunderstand Stacie when she was explaining it all to me?

Disclosure: I work for KFN

There are no monthly fees (something that might change in the future).

This is one of dozens of forums we regularly check in on. And with regularly I mean once every few months. Hence the delay in reply. 

As a side note: The membership fee is a fraction of the usual down payment required by traditional lenders - but that, of course, is the alternative to our proposition. Add to that that we are project managers on the rehab, it is just a matter of how you want to go about accomplishing your goals. 20-50% of profit with us for finding and submitting a deal or 100% of profit doing it yourself, and assuming 100% of the risk and 100% of the costs. 

I had sent an initial contact to KFN several weeks ago and never heard back when I was working on funding for another deal. Stacie called me last week and was super friendly and excited to talk to me about working together. We scheduled a follow-up interview for this afternoon after I was said I was willing to listen to any partner opportunities they wanted to present.

Between calls, she sent me an email with links to several ebooks and websites. They were pretty basic and anyone that's listed to 5 BiggerPockets podcasts will be more informed than the info they're presenting.

Fast forward to this afternoon. Stacie called, I had blocked off time in my schedule for her. The first thing she asked was if I had read the books and websites she had sent me. I was caught off guard by this, I informed her I had briefly looked. She asked what my "favorite part" of their websites were. I kind of stuttered because I didn't want to be rude and just said I wasn't sure. She told me I wasn't the type of person they wanted to work with and hung up on me.

Now that I've read the comments here, I wouldn't have even taken their call based on their business model. I don't think I could picture treating a potential partner that way but I don't think that's what they're after anyway. Paying someone that much up front with no guarantees to get funding is crazy with as many lenders are out there, regardless of how rude or unprofessional their people are.

So here’s my experience so far. I watched their videos, spoke with them on the phone twice and what the reps said in the thread sofar has been what I’ve been presented with. The whole 50k profit or no deal, they said they pay all the costs, you need 3 contractor bids and they usually pick the one in the middle etc.  

They gave me this website to see prices while I spoke with my spouse as well as a whiteboard video. http://www.wealth212.com/pricing/

When I spoke with them again I asked the all important question, if my deals make you money, at least 25k or no deal base on a 50/50 split entry point, why would you need me to pay 3k-13.5k in the first place and her only answer was some people want the best and have the money to get in at the exclusive club 212 price. To which I asked again but why would you hold back things that would make you guys money?  If I have the information that will generate you guys more money in volume then why would it be necessary to charge different tears. (Forgot she also mentioned at some point it’s a law that a partner have an investment into the company) and why if it’s the law wouldn’t it make more sense and to not appear to be a scam looking to see which amount of money you can get out of someone, and she replied again with the whole some people want the best so I just dropped the subject because she wasn’t going to answer this the way I wanted her to.  

I’m still up in the air on this.  I came to this thread to see if I could get some answers. Some people seem to be talking about something completely different with credit cards, some are talking about something with a monthly fee (which this is a one time fee for life she said) and some people just kind of assuming things and putting their opinions on something they don’t really know. A few people seemed to jump in and get started, got some rehabs started then they disappeared.  I know where I’m at in Chicago the price difference between a house that needs a rehab and one that just got one isn’t that far apart unless you can get something before it hits the market so not sure how easy it would be to pull it off but I mean there’s a lot of suburbs surrounding chicago where things may work better. But anyway I dunno what I want to do. I told her I’d see about it next month and use my tax returns if I decide to jump in. 

 @Darrell Essex I am still researching KFN and looking for more info. I talked to David Whitmer over there and he answers all my questions with respect and seems like he knows what he is talking about. When I researched @Arno Karssen , it looks like he was never involved in RE Investing and was always a sales/marketing guy. That makes me doubt the whole program. I reached out to a few BP members who posted in this thread earlier but no one replies back. @Heidi Hatter  @Kelvin B. How did your process go? Any updates? Anyone had a good experience with them?

I, too have spoken with them and since I expressed doubt, they said I could not afford it.  Its true I cannot afford to be taken.  There are many, many ways to make money in real estate .. so why work with people who are evasive and egotistical.  I asked them to  show me deals where they made money.  They could not or would not produce.  They have a long list of unsatisfied partners.  

 I had one company (not the same one) come into town and they bragged how much they made on a house (over a 100k) and he gave the street name and the guy who did the deal (who was part of their team and in the room).  I talked with him and found the address.  I was extremely interested because it was down the street from 4 houses I had.  He later told me he only wholesaled it and made 2500 and they were the ones who made the big money.  I went and looked at the house.  It was not reconditioned and would not be able to sell for more than 30k!  No one made  a 100k on the house.   

This Keystone Finance has been in business for a while now.  Why aren't they bursting at the seams with people who just love them and showing example after example of profits?   

Hi all, 

I joined Keystone Funding Network (KFN) in July 2017.  KFN has great tools to assist in understanding all there is regarding the program, which I studied in my spare time prior to starting to search for opportunities.

I am in Chicago and started looking at properties in the 1st quarter of 2018, after several viewings, I identified 2 SFRs of which KFN became my partner via a JV in the 2nd quarter of 2018 for one out of the 2 submitted.

The support is phenomenal and they are legit. All costs such as inspection and appraisal are covered by KFN as well as holding once the JV is in place. No risk as the JV partner as they do everything possible to insure profitability for everyone involved in the project.

My project is presently listed and awaiting a purchase contract.  Looking forward to closing and leveraging Keystone for future opportunities.

I have received 4 emails and a phone call from KFN/W212. I felt very skeptical when they called (which caller ID oddly labeled “United States”).  Apparently, their phone call was my “first interview” and they seemed to want a quick answer as to whether or not I would commit to making an immediate $5-$20k investment on my second interview to become a partner, which would determine the percentage of profit share (20-50%) I would get. I told them I needed to investigate their company first before I could commit to something like that; no investor should take risks under pressure. Their approach reminds me of various scammers that have called me, which I think is unfortunately and possibly unnecessarily turning people off to their company. I’ve looked into their facebook page and they seem to be legitimate (haven’t been able to find a website yet). I think they’d be far better off if they would re-structure their recruiting model; provide solid data (with testimonials) to ease the concerns of prospects, offer a contract for new members that would subtract the “membership buy-in” and any costs accrued from submissions that weren’t accepted from the new member’s profit share of the first successful flip. That would instantly change my mindset from skepticism into excitement. I would gladly sign up for that offer.

 This review right here should be final and that should be reflected on everybody associated with KNF.   As wholesalers and realtors we all know the power of online marketing correct? Also, you have all heard of the phrase “call to action” correct?

Bottom line if something looks to good to be true, it probably most likely is. KNF DBA Wealth 212 is not a scam however, that doesn't say that their marketing gimmick is misleading. Let's describe real life Operations. First, they fund you under their credit which they transfer in your name to buy property, so providing money is what they do. However, those who have no idea what they are doing cannot see their operation which they legally disclose in front of you but is clouded by their online marketing hype.

What they don’t tell you up front, or in their marketing video, (only in the fine print) is that they can pull from a transaction anytime they want and the fundee agrees to be liable for all the expenses accrued.  That’s right, you have to pay for all expenses incurred at that moment including the money they used to fund the deal.  

Their fine VERY Fine print states this but is clouded by very good marketing videos, stacks of money photos, testimonials with first names and their states a etc.  ALWAYS LOOK PAST THAT AND READ THE FINE PRINT.  REMEMBER THEY SAID CREDIT DONT MEAN A THING?! Well it doesn’t TO JOIN THEM! But within their online application they do ask you your credit score 🤔 Haha! Because they want to ensure you can pay the debt.  

They offer you online tools to see out sellers etc and conduct the deal which more than 89% of the time(regardless if its a great deal) they will deny it!  

They want it to be a troubled fix and flip because it A) gets you in the deal B) they transfer their CREDIT under you to “fund” the RE expenses

Then they drag their feet at the last minute as to why they cannot close! THIS IS BS!! Right? You have all these expenses you owe now on a 26.5% APR credit line. Can they back out that early or late though!? Like 2hr before closing? And then hold me with the cost? Yes they can and legally can take your investment of the initial $5,000 and ignore you.. The reason why they cannot get sued it umm you guest it! You signed the contract (that you didn't read thoroughly stating you would accrue the costs regardless and that they can back out whenever).

They did that to me but, little do they know, I was on to them the whole time.  I actually have was closing myself on properties they were rejecting and made a lot of $- They backed out on another deal which I quickly paid off the balance and cancelled (they were stunned) I then rescinded the contract between them and told them this operation will Only work guys on newbies.  Never heard from them again but was able to hack and duplicate their bot system.  

Anyway, I digress.  I ended up paying off 6k of CC debt they left me with on the 25k commission I recently made on my own fix and flip.  

They are not a scam they tell you what they do in FINE Print.  They purposely have successful deals once in awhile for marketing however they could not possibly do this.  They are not disrupting a billion dollar business at all! They are taking peoples money of $5,000 and leaving them with high hopes and debt.  

Be careful new investors. Better to do it yourself or find a funding partner you can give you liquid cash.  You have to work hard for your first deal and risk a few things.  Nothing is never as easy as they claim.  

My rating is a D+ 

The reason for my grade and why it’s not a F below

Why it’s not a full blown F- Because they lawfully disclose this to everyone in light fine print

Why a D+- Because they have allowed a few success stories to slip through (probably people working directly for them).  They mislead their potential clients by masking the fine print with fancy marketing with awesome photos of money stacks,videos etc.  

Tip:  when something feels too good to be true look into it. Additionally, always know that there is of yet a trustworthy solid company that does this and if they were they would be very selective. Selective in a way where they know your income is stabilized and that your business is thriving.   Laid do however a statement that stated that they are very selective so I asked this question. “If you are so selective then why is everyone and anyone can sign up and get a call and quickly get funding?”

Red flag- there business model seems straight forward.  Why do they need to set up a call that is 90 minutes long to explain their operation.  If it were a solid company, all They would need to say this 

- find us a property.  The finder has no credit cards or no monies in his name

-You find a property they approve and you sign a JV Agreement with them

- They then transfer you their shares of LLC they can quickly create with escrow 100-% funded in cash money

- You show up to the closing and sign the the papers saying you are a partner in XYZ LLC

- The Deal is executed 

- You use what’s left of the cash to pay for repairs, appraisals and closing costs (as long as it doesn’t exceed a certain amount especially a good % less than the Purchase Price)

- You find a cash buyer and close 

-Money from buyer fills the escrow under the transferable LLC stating you as a representative

- You transfer the LLC back to them

- They divi the money in the full escrow which gives you 25-50% for your running around (under the JV Agreement y'all signed in the beginning). They pay closing, and realtor fees THE remaining MONEY FROM SELL AND WHATS LEFT FROM THE REPAIR BANK IS GIVEN BACK TO THEM

-YOU CASH YOUR CHECK of the 25-50% of the sale price WAHOOO 💥 




I signed up at the $3k level.

Once I finally got a deal for them to work with they sat on it and would not answer emails or phone calls and ran out the clock.  I lost 2500 in earnest as a result.

I would say these guys are a scam DO NOT WORK WITH THEM!!!

It is not a scam.  I posted my experience with Keystone and would be happy to share with you.

All I know is that my experience has been solid especially for my 1st transaction with them.  To cover all costs and deal with all interested parties and all I do is to view the property weekly and show I am on the scene is pretty good.  

I will use them again in the coming weeks moving forward 

@Rod Atkins Could you please share couple of your deals with us. I believe you were asked to before by a fellow investor from Chicago and you never replied to him. 
It would go a long way reassuring the community regarding this company. 

Originally posted by @Arno Karssen :

Hey everyone, time for another update. 

I understand skepticism. But some of you are so far off base in spite of attempts to clarify, that I think some comments might help.

First, we have three requirements. Not a whole list as someone mentioned. This does exclude 80% of flippable properties, but then either way you probably shouldn't be touching that 80% anyways. Simple risk management. The "requirements" we have are fairly universal. Minimum profit requirement ($50k), rehab cannot exceed purchase price and under $600k ARV (we don't touch luxury homes because of DOM. Same for historical homes for that matter). That's it. THREE qualifiers. Are they easy to find? No of course not, that's where field partners come into play. We wouldn't need to share profits if they were easy to find.

Second, someone said we don't give property examples. Odd, as our facebook page has a few dozen.

Third, if you don't want to do a membership based version of creative funding, you have plenty of alternatives. You can set up your own creative version of a partnership, and depending on what you bring to the table (time, experience, funding) you can probably find a matching partner. If you have little to no cash, if you lack experience, if you have bad credit, well then that partnership is going to be a struggle. That's why we are an alternative our members are excited to be partnered with. You can of course also do traditional funding (banks): 20% down, qualifying credit and take 100% of the risk and manage the rehab yourself. Or hard money lending, which has similar cash up front requirements and also is all about the money (they don't help with the deal, it's all about cash). 

Fourth, someone asked to talk to someone who is actually flipping with us. I believe a few people in the forum are our members and have tried to comment. Not sure how many would be enough? They tried to help without broadcasting their personal information and getting heaven know who contacting them to prove something they are part of but don't promote for a living, like our office staff. 

Fifth (i was only thinking it was going to be three but here we are) some of you are referring to rejection numbers. Where are you getting those from? We don't have a single member in all these years who got anywhere close to 20 deals rejected. I don't even think we have a member who had half that. We work hard to help people understand what they are looking for. Besides, if rejection is a turnoff then don't try getting funding from a bank or hard money lender, and I frankly think you shouldn't go into Real Estate. 

Finally, it if you are advertising your own company you probably shouldn't be giving negative reviews, especially if you never even talked to us. From your comments it seems you didn't even look at our website or social media and our contact records show we never talked to you. 

If you have any questions, feel free to contact us directly. Get first hand information:) 

 I haven't followed this thread in its entirety, just responding to this comment.

Isnt it a bit arbitrary to set a 600k limit for what you consider luxury and having a potential dom problem?

In my area 600 to 750 is the sweet spot for single family homes.

In other areas its super luxury 5 times higher than a typical sfh.


Disclosure: Manager

Originally posted by @Eric M. :
Originally posted by @Arno Karssen:

Hey everyone, time for another update. 

I understand skepticism. But some of you are so far off base in spite of attempts to clarify, that I think some comments might help.

First, we have three requirements. Not a whole list as someone mentioned. This does exclude 80% of flippable properties, but then either way you probably shouldn't be touching that 80% anyways. Simple risk management. The "requirements" we have are fairly universal. Minimum profit requirement ($50k), rehab cannot exceed purchase price and under $600k ARV (we don't touch luxury homes because of DOM. Same for historical homes for that matter). That's it. THREE qualifiers. Are they easy to find? No of course not, that's where field partners come into play. We wouldn't need to share profits if they were easy to find.

Second, someone said we don't give property examples. Odd, as our facebook page has a few dozen.

Third, if you don't want to do a membership based version of creative funding, you have plenty of alternatives. You can set up your own creative version of a partnership, and depending on what you bring to the table (time, experience, funding) you can probably find a matching partner. If you have little to no cash, if you lack experience, if you have bad credit, well then that partnership is going to be a struggle. That's why we are an alternative our members are excited to be partnered with. You can of course also do traditional funding (banks): 20% down, qualifying credit and take 100% of the risk and manage the rehab yourself. Or hard money lending, which has similar cash up front requirements and also is all about the money (they don't help with the deal, it's all about cash). 

Fourth, someone asked to talk to someone who is actually flipping with us. I believe a few people in the forum are our members and have tried to comment. Not sure how many would be enough? They tried to help without broadcasting their personal information and getting heaven know who contacting them to prove something they are part of but don't promote for a living, like our office staff. 

Fifth (i was only thinking it was going to be three but here we are) some of you are referring to rejection numbers. Where are you getting those from? We don't have a single member in all these years who got anywhere close to 20 deals rejected. I don't even think we have a member who had half that. We work hard to help people understand what they are looking for. Besides, if rejection is a turnoff then don't try getting funding from a bank or hard money lender, and I frankly think you shouldn't go into Real Estate. 

Finally, it if you are advertising your own company you probably shouldn't be giving negative reviews, especially if you never even talked to us. From your comments it seems you didn't even look at our website or social media and our contact records show we never talked to you. 

If you have any questions, feel free to contact us directly. Get first hand information:) 

 I haven't followed this thread in its entirety, just responding to this comment.

Isnt it a bit arbitrary to set a 600k limit for what you consider luxury and having a potential dom problem?

In my area 600 to 750 is the sweet spot for single family homes.

In other areas its super luxury 5 times higher than a typical sfh.

Well of course it's arbitrary. Just like every other lender in the country, we can set our own parameters of what we fund and don't fund. We attach somewhat of an explanation with it (luxury and historic homes) but bottom line it's totally arbitrary. This also explains why we don't accept members in many areas in the country: there simply aren't any (enough) qualifying properties in their area (or we have enough members to cover that area). We are a closed group, not open for anyone wanting to join...

Some math is pretty universal though - Let's take a home in your "sweet spot" range - ARV of 700k. So for flipping let's say you can get something around $450k, that would leave a nice profit margin, right? So we are extending $450k plus rehab and other costs for 4-6 months - assuming DOM is close to 0, which it isn't anywhere... Rehabs on homes like that are often easily over 100k, if not over 200k (the lower your PP the higher your rehab if you want to match ARV in a specific area). There are numerous calculators online that will tell you what kind of profit margin you would need to make something like that work. Some will indicate risk margins - even though flips like the ones in your area aren't impossible, on your proposition the risk factor would be through the roof.

Take the same $500-$600k in other areas of the country and you can buy 5-8 decent homes with each having the same profit margins EACH... That's our logic behind that "arbitrary" $600k. Besides, most of our members aren't experts so if we instructed them by saying "well it depends" all we would end up with is frustration. Bottom line, as I said, if we call someone to ask if they are interested in becoming a member, we take them through an extensive intake process to make sure they are in an area where flipping is more likely to result in success. I would say that we, like anyone in our industry, aren't interested in every property out there. We try to make it as specific as we can, so our members know what they are looking for. 

 

Disclosure: Manager

Originally posted by @GARY LEONARD JR :

 This review right here should be final and that should be reflected on everybody associated with KNF.   As wholesalers and realtors we all know the power of online marketing correct? Also, you have all heard of the phrase “call to action” correct?

Bottom line if something looks to good to be true, it probably most likely is. KNF DBA Wealth 212 is not a scam however, that doesn't say that their marketing gimmick is misleading. Let's describe real life Operations. First, they fund you under their credit which they transfer in your name to buy property, so providing money is what they do. However, those who have no idea what they are doing cannot see their operation which they legally disclose in front of you but is clouded by their online marketing hype.

What they don’t tell you up front, or in their marketing video, (only in the fine print) is that they can pull from a transaction anytime they want and the fundee agrees to be liable for all the expenses accrued.  That’s right, you have to pay for all expenses incurred at that moment including the money they used to fund the deal.  

Their fine VERY Fine print states this but is clouded by very good marketing videos, stacks of money photos, testimonials with first names and their states a etc.  ALWAYS LOOK PAST THAT AND READ THE FINE PRINT.  REMEMBER THEY SAID CREDIT DONT MEAN A THING?! Well it doesn’t TO JOIN THEM! But within their online application they do ask you your credit score 🤔 Haha! Because they want to ensure you can pay the debt.  

They offer you online tools to see out sellers etc and conduct the deal which more than 89% of the time(regardless if its a great deal) they will deny it!  

They want it to be a troubled fix and flip because it A) gets you in the deal B) they transfer their CREDIT under you to “fund” the RE expenses

Then they drag their feet at the last minute as to why they cannot close! THIS IS BS!! Right? You have all these expenses you owe now on a 26.5% APR credit line. Can they back out that early or late though!? Like 2hr before closing? And then hold me with the cost? Yes they can and legally can take your investment of the initial $5,000 and ignore you.. The reason why they cannot get sued it umm you guest it! You signed the contract (that you didn't read thoroughly stating you would accrue the costs regardless and that they can back out whenever).

They did that to me but, little do they know, I was on to them the whole time.  I actually have was closing myself on properties they were rejecting and made a lot of $- They backed out on another deal which I quickly paid off the balance and cancelled (they were stunned) I then rescinded the contract between them and told them this operation will Only work guys on newbies.  Never heard from them again but was able to hack and duplicate their bot system.  

Anyway, I digress.  I ended up paying off 6k of CC debt they left me with on the 25k commission I recently made on my own fix and flip.  

They are not a scam they tell you what they do in FINE Print.  They purposely have successful deals once in awhile for marketing however they could not possibly do this.  They are not disrupting a billion dollar business at all! They are taking peoples money of $5,000 and leaving them with high hopes and debt.  

Be careful new investors. Better to do it yourself or find a funding partner you can give you liquid cash.  You have to work hard for your first deal and risk a few things.  Nothing is never as easy as they claim.  

My rating is a D+ 

The reason for my grade and why it’s not a F below

Why it’s not a full blown F- Because they lawfully disclose this to everyone in light fine print

Why a D+- Because they have allowed a few success stories to slip through (probably people working directly for them).  They mislead their potential clients by masking the fine print with fancy marketing with awesome photos of money stacks,videos etc.  

Tip:  when something feels too good to be true look into it. Additionally, always know that there is of yet a trustworthy solid company that does this and if they were they would be very selective. Selective in a way where they know your income is stabilized and that your business is thriving.   Laid do however a statement that stated that they are very selective so I asked this question. “If you are so selective then why is everyone and anyone can sign up and get a call and quickly get funding?”

Red flag- there business model seems straight forward.  Why do they need to set up a call that is 90 minutes long to explain their operation.  If it were a solid company, all They would need to say this 

- find us a property.  The finder has no credit cards or no monies in his name

-You find a property they approve and you sign a JV Agreement with them

- They then transfer you their shares of LLC they can quickly create with escrow 100-% funded in cash money

- You show up to the closing and sign the the papers saying you are a partner in XYZ LLC

- The Deal is executed 

- You use what’s left of the cash to pay for repairs, appraisals and closing costs (as long as it doesn’t exceed a certain amount especially a good % less than the Purchase Price)

- You find a cash buyer and close 

-Money from buyer fills the escrow under the transferable LLC stating you as a representative

- You transfer the LLC back to them

- They divi the money in the full escrow which gives you 25-50% for your running around (under the JV Agreement y'all signed in the beginning). They pay closing, and realtor fees THE remaining MONEY FROM SELL AND WHATS LEFT FROM THE REPAIR BANK IS GIVEN BACK TO THEM

-YOU CASH YOUR CHECK of the 25-50% of the sale price WAHOOO 💥 


Hey Gary,

Obviously someone upset you, but I think you are confusing us with someone else... You have never been a member, so I am not sure what kind of fine print you are referring to, we never sent you any of our contracts. I can see we had a short conversation but when i listened to it it was quite short and ended friendly? 

It seems you are a in the cash lending business yourself (your email address), so perhaps this is why the confusing review? A conflict of interest is the only explanation I have. 

Either way, sorry that we upset you, and a few things:

"First, they fund you under their credit which they transfer in your name to buy property, so providing money is what they do" - we don't fund under our own credit nor anyone else's. We are strictly cash only and buy properties straight up. And we take our members completely off REPC and instead give them a JV - exactly as you suggested in your rather long "all you have to do". So this way members have zero risk when properties go upside down. We take the fall, which despite our best efforts still happens in about one of ten cases. Just as a side note, that one of ten is enough to wipe individuals financially out if they flipped on their own, taking away all profits in the previous nine for all practical purposes.

Having said that, this following quote from your comment is totally confusing. I think you think we are a credit lender or something, but since you never were a W212 member, you never had a property come close to closing so that is confusing as well:  Then they drag their feet at the last minute as to why they cannot close! THIS IS BS!! Right? You have all these expenses you owe now on a 26.5% APR credit line.

I can go into the rest in your comment but obviously it's not about us, so i would just be repeating myself. I would love to see the fine print you are referring to though, perhaps that would give us a clue as to who you are referring to. When it comes to your "all you have to do", all I can say is that that is quite a bit of print as well and for the most part summarizes pretty much what we do, except we do it with less risk to the member than you propose.  

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