All Forum Posts by: Leo R.

@Dru Hill I've worked with some highly experienced agents (and I've also encountered plenty of agents who had no clue what they were doing).

My primary agent is in the top 1% of volume and expertise, and he's made himself into a key part of my operation over the years, so I'm happy to keep bringing him business. 

So, what makes an agent great?

An investor friendly agent is an agent with investing experience--but what does that mean? ("investing experience" could mean experience with house hacking, flipping, STRs, syndication, or any of the other many investment strategies). An agent may be a total rockstar when it comes to BRRR'ing, but they may know nothing about STRs. So, you probably want an agent who has experience with the investment strategies you plan to pursue.

Aside from investing experience, a really great agent can do two things really well that most agents can't (or won't) do: 1) they facilitate an extremely strong due diligence process, and 2) they see opportunities that other agents and buyers miss.

I'll give you a real example of each:

First, an example of an agent going all-in on due diligence, which saved me a ton of cash and headache, and ultimately secured the agent millions of dollars' worth of future business. 

Years ago, when I was a completely inexperienced aspiring investor, looking for my first property, I found my "dream house". I was ready to buy that place on the spot. However, while I was succumbing to shiny object syndrome (admiring the fancy new kitchen, new hardware, and beautifully tiled bathrooms), my agent was crawling around in the basement crawlspaces, collecting cobwebs, and looking at the plumbing. The basement had some un-finished spaces, but most of the basement had just been beautifully re-finished with a mother in law apartment (which I was going to rent out).

I tell my agent to write the offer, and he says "OK, but before we make an offer, you need to understand that the entire house has galvanized steel plumbing, which will fail. It may fail in 5 years, or it may fail in two weeks, but it will fail in the relatively near future. When that plumbing fails, you will need to demolish much of that brand new basement MIL apartment to replace the plumbing. It will cost you approximately $50k to demolish that fancy new finish work in the basement, re-plumb the house, and then re-finish the basement again. Are you prepared to take that on?" (the answer was no, and although I was incredibly disappointed, we walked). Point being: my agent began the due diligence process the moment we walked into the property. He did not wait for the inspection to begin the due diligence process. ...and it saved me $50k (which could have bankrupted me at the time) and a massive headache.

A NON-investor friendly agent (or an agent looking to make a quick commission) would have said "yes, this house is SO CUTE! LET'S BUY IT!", and I would have ended up with a serious problem.

That's the value of an agent who goes hard in the paint on due diligence.

Importantly, this agent's willingness to walk away from a commission in order to protect me showed me that he was trustworthy and would put my interests above his own. At that time, this agent did not know me at all (we had spoken twice). He was a top-grossing agent, but I was just a kid with virtually no money and no experience. He had zero reason to expect that I would ever buy another property with him. His willingness to sacrifice for me proved that he was the real deal--which is why I went back to him again and again over the years as I bought more properties. 

As the years passed and we did more deals, I learned that this agent understood how to inspect properties more thoroughly than many home inspectors! Fast forward to today, and that agent is a key player on my team--I never buy or sell a property without him. He has saved me hundreds of thousands of dollars over the years because of his thorough due diligence, and we've transacted millions of dollars' worth of real estate.

Now, an example of an agent thinking creatively and seeing a value-add opportunity that everyone else missed: There was a house that had been on the market for a long time, and the reason was obvious: it was only a 2 br 1 ba house, and the floorplan was very, very weird...however, my agent spotted that the listing had unusually large Sq footage, so we went to check it out...10 minutes after walking into the house, my agent says "we can turn this loser into a winner". Specifically, some non-load bearing walls could easily be removed, some new walls framed, and with about $40k, the house would be transformed from an un-appealing 2/1 that would lose $300/mo as a rental into a very appealing 4/2 that would cashflow about $500/mo (including the debt service for the rehab)... We bought the place and executed the plan--not only did it become a solid cashflower, the property value also increased by about $125k. A grand slam.

It's critical to understand that the agent who recommended this rehab knew about building code, construction techniques, and the costs associated. For instance, he identified the load bearing walls when we walked the property, he understood where the existing plumbing was, and where new plumbing would need to go, he assessed where HVAC ducts were, and where new ducts would need to be routed, he understood the changes that would need to occur to the electrical system, etc., etc., and he understood the costs of all of those issues.

Plenty of people (agents included) can come up with pie-in-the-sky ideas of how to change and improve a house, but few have a real understanding of what that work entails, what challenges will need to be overcome, and how long it will all take and what it will all cost. ...how did this agent know all this info? Because he had personally rehabbed many of his own properties--and had done that work himself, and also via GCs!

We'd all love to buy turn-key, A-grade, cashflowing and appreciating properties, but those properties are almost non-existent. Because we have an extremely challenging market (high prices, increasing rates, limited supply), being able to envision and execute value-add strategies that everyone else misses is often the only way to make a property succeed--so, having an agent who understands value-add strategies is a huge advantage!

To sum this up, a rockstar agent understands how to save their client money (and headache) by going above and beyond with an extremely thorough due diligence process, and they understand how to make their client money by finding value-add opportunities that everyone else misses.Note that many (perhaps most) agents don't do either of these things. Most agents think to themselves "inspecting the property is the property inspector's job" or "figuring out the rehab budget is the GC's job"...I don't work with those agents.

Agents with this type of expertise are worth their weight in gold to an investor--especially when the investor is relatively new and inexperienced. This is true in most areas of life--we are most in need of an experienced coach when we're learning something new (particularly if what we're trying to learn is a high-stakes process like RE investing). The less experienced the investor is, the more experienced their team needs to be!

Even though I'm no longer an inexperienced investor, I still work with my buyer's agent--because the money he helps me save and make is far more than his commission (an ROI that most other agents can't or won't produce).

Good luck out there!

@Hunter Broschinsky in general, I've found that the rent estimating apps/software online are very hit and miss...sometimes they produce accurate rent values, and sometimes they're WAY off. They also don't allow for particularly nuanced analyses --for instance, in most cities, simply crossing a street can make a big difference in rent and property values, but most rent estimating apps don't allow for such fine-grain analyses.

Because of that, I start off initial analyses with an app , but before I pull the trigger on a new property or investment strategy, I always do my OWN data collection and market analyses--which produces a much more accurate and nuanced understanding of the market than any app. I organize listings into spreadsheets that allow me to compare various types of properties, neighborhoods, etc. If I'm trying to understand a new market or a new type of property, I'll physically go to open houses to see for myself what the property is like, how much the rent is, and how much interest there seems to be from prospective tenants. If it's a market or property type I'm not familiar with, I talk to local realtors and landlords to get a sense of what's what. Is this more work than simply clicking a button on an app? Yes. Does it produce a more accurate, and more nuanced understanding of the market than an app? Yes. I sometimes cross-validate my own analyses with the rent estimating software, but at the end of the day, NOTHING beats first-hand knowledge of your market.

So how do you comp out your ADU? I'll give you some tips on comping the rent, but comping the property value is a whole other ball of wax--I'd suggest talking to local appraisers and realtors about that.

In most markets, you won't find many ADUs to comp against, but you will find plenty of 1 br apartments. Although your ADU isn't exactly the same as a 1 br apartment, it's similar.

So, I suggest comping against 1 br apartments, BUT be very mindful of the sq footage, grade and amenities of those apartments. Your ADU is 500 sq ft, but most 1 br apartments (in my market at least) are around 700-800 sq ft --so, you'd want to leave those out of your comps, or adjust your estimate accordingly. Obviously, you want to comp against apartments that are a similar grade to your ADU (both grade of the apartment, and grade of the neighborhood).

Unfortunately, many apartment buildings will have amenities that you probably don't have (e.g.; pools, gyms, etc), and that makes the comp trickier --you'll need to adjust your estimate downward to offset these differences. To avoid this problem entirely, try to find 1 br apartments that are house conversions (a house where someone built a 1 br apartment in the basement or attic, for instance). These types of properties usually won't have major amenities like pools/gyms that the bigger apartment complexes have, so they'll be better comps for your ADU than an apartment in a big apartment complex.

Look at listings on multiple platforms, because the best comps for your ADU might not be listed on certain platforms. In my market, an ADU or apartment in a house is more likely to be listed on Facebook Marketplace than zillow (but apartments in big complexes are more likely to be on Zillow).

At the end of the day, listing your property and gauging the response is the ultimate test...if you list and you get a tidal wave of inquiries, your rent is probably lower than the market. If you list and hear nothing but crickets, your rent is too high. 

Good luck out there!

@Alex Armson generally, the things that break the most frequently at a property are plumbing, electrical, and HVAC--so if you have expertise in any of those areas, it would be useful, and could save you money.

However, if your ultimate goal is to be a successful real estate investor, then I'd say focus on becoming a real estate investor (and not a plumber / electrician / HVAC guy). All the time, money and effort you would put into becoming a tradesperson could be put into becoming a real estate investor.

Back when I was starting out, I did a lot of my own repair work on properties (mainly because I didn't have the money to pay pros). However, once you're a successful investor, it's much easier and more efficient to pay pros to do repairs for you...These days, I hire pros to do nearly all repairs. Does this cut into my bottom line? Yes. However, at this point in my career, the money I pay professionals for repairs is a relatively small piece of my operation, and my time is much better spent on other things (like spending time with friends/family, skiing, optimizing my portfolio, etc.). ...I know how to switch out a toilet, but I'd much rather pay someone to do it and spend that time enjoying life.

Moreover, the money I would have saved by becoming a tradesperson early in my investing career would be dwarfed by the money I would have lost from delaying my investing career. If I had started as a tradesperson, I might have saved myself a $5k-25k in repair bills in the first few years of owning properties...but the cost of delaying my start as an investor even by just one year would have been in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. 

Consider this: a hypothetical investor has a portfolio of 5 single fam houses, each worth $500k ($2.5 mil total valuation). Every property has a mortgage, and the mortgage principle is paid down at a rate of $40k per year across the entire portfolio, and the portfolio appreciates at 2.5% per year (about $60k per year). So, between mortgage paydown and 2.5% appreciation, this investor's net worth is increasing at $100k per year just from mortgage paydown and appreciation (not including compounding effects, value adds, mortgage amortization, cashflow, or tax benefits). The investor acquired these properties in 5 years via repetitive house hacking (they house hacked a new place every year for 5 years) ...now you can see the cost of waiting to invest--if that investor had waited just 12 months to get their first property, the opportunity cost would be in the hundreds of thousands of dollars.

IMO, a primary goal of REI is making enough money so that you can buy back your time and have total freedom in deciding how you spend your time. If your goal is to be a successful real estate investor, then focus on becoming a successful real estate investor, and don't get distracted by alternative options (especially if those alternative options would produce a much smaller return than focusing on REI).

Now, having said all that...if you don't have any money, and you think that becoming a tradesperson is the best way to start making money that you can then invest in real estate...sure, that could be a great path! Tradespeople are in very high demand, and if you live in a city and you do good work, you'll probably have an endless supply of business. ...just don't take your eye off the ultimate goal (total time freedom from REI).

Good luck out there!

@Drew Joseph I'm from WV, and have been to Charleston a few times. I've also done all the strategies you mention, numerous times.

I've written about this topic on the forums previously, so here's my response pasted from another thread:

In my opinion, house hacking (a single fam or small multifam) is the single best way to get started in real estate investing.

Why? Because, house hacking can produce great returns, it teaches you essential RE investing skills, but (compared to more advanced strategies like BRRR'ing), it is comparatively lower risk, simpler and more beginner-friendly (and therefore has a higher likelihood of success).

More specifically:

1. A HH can produce great financial returns. A HH can substantially lower your living expenses, while creating cashflow, appreciation, mortgage pay down, and tax benefits. Lowering your expenses while increasing income is the fundamental recipe for building wealth, and a HH accomplishes this in a single step. A HH can also involve opportunities to force appreciation and/or rent (e.g.; by adding an extra bedroom in a previously under-utilized space). When executed correctly and repeatedly, house hacking can be very lucrative, and there are multi-millionaires who built their fortunes on repetitive house hacking! Although it's a strategy that's good for beginners, there are plenty of very experienced RE investors who continue to HH, because it's such a powerful strategy.

Also, as you gain experience, you can combine a HH with other strategies to maximize returns—I've done HH's that turned into various types of value-add plays, BRRRR's, STRs, flips, etc. Often, this is done to adapt to market changes. For instance, I have a property that started as a HH; when rates increased, re-fi'ing wasn't an option, but the property had a layout and zoning that was conducive to adding an ADU—which I did, greatly improving the property's cashflow. Nobody can predict the market, but good investors know how to adapt to whatever the market throws at them, and HH’ing is a strategy that is highly adaptable.

2. A house hack will teach you the essential skills you'll need to succeed in RE investing. With a HH, you can learn how to analyze properties & markets, how to find an investor-friendly agent, how to spot value-add opportunities at properties, how to engage in a strong due diligence process, how to screen tenants, how to manage the property, how to build a network of contractors, plumbers, electricians and other pros, how to manage the book keeping of the property, etc., etc., etc. If you want to succeed in RE investing, getting this experience will be critical! In my experience, a HH can provide incredibly valuable lessons that no mentor, real estate course, book or podcast could ever teach (though, I'd still recommend reading up on relevant RE resources, listening to podcasts, etc.).

Plus, if you decide to do one of the other strategies in the future (such as BRRR'ing or out-of-state investing), you'll be much more prepared to do it if you have a few HH's under your belt--a ton of the lessons you'll learn from a HH can be used to succeed in other areas of real estate ...in fact, I'd say that a HH should be a necessary prerequisite to the more advanced strategies (like flipping)!



3. Compared to other strategies (like flipping, wholesaling, etc.), HH is relatively simple and lower-risk, and therefore has a higher chance of success. I always use this analogy: would you tell a beginner skier to ski the most advanced terrain on the mountain? (obviously, no; a beginner could get themselves killed on double black diamond terrain!). Beginners should start off on beginner terrain, where they actually have a chance to learn and succeed. A house hack is like that beginner run—you’ll fall down a few times, and learn in the process (but you hopefully won’t get yourself killed) …on the other hand, flipping, BRRR'ing, wholesaling, and out-of-state investing are more like double black diamonds—they require a lot of experience, and a mistake could have dire consequences.

The fact of the matter is: real estate is often a high-stakes endeavor, and the more advanced strategies (like BRRR'ing, wholesaling, flipping, out of state investing, etc.) can easily bankrupt a beginner when they're executed poorly.

Now, having said all that, house hacking is not necessarily easy (if it were, everyone would do it!)...it's just easier than the more advanced strategies...House hacking still takes significant due diligence, skill in analyzing the market and the property, time and effort to learn about tenant screening and property management, the ability to anticipate appreciation/depreciation trends, etc., etc., etc....and even with lots of skill and preparation, things will still go wrong (vacancy, plumbing leaks, bad tenants, unanticipated capex, etc.)--but that's the nature of the game. As James Brown sang: you gotta pay the cost to be the boss.

Good luck out there!

@Darius Wade why not wait until you've owned the current house 12 months (at which point you'll be eligible for another mortgage on a new primary residence), and then buy a 2nd property and house hack again?...rinse and repeat--do that once every 12 months, and you can build up a solid portfolio. At each property, occupy the least valuable space in the house, and rent out the most valuable spots so that you maximize your income to qualify for the next mortgage. If you don't qualify for enough to buy a turn-key property, look for a fixer and put in some sweat equity.

You've already gained some house hacking experience from the first property--why not tap into that experience and house hack again? (and again, and again, and again until you can't stand living with housemates any more--at which point, you should have enough equity and cashflow that you can get your own place).

House hacking is one of the BEST strategies around, and I've written numerous posts on the forums describing the specific benefits of house hacking (take a look at those posts for more info).

Good luck out there!

@Ian Zuber congrats on taking the plunge. Pittsburgh is an awesome city (I lived there, and am familiar with most of the neighborhoods). Go Bucs!

You ask a good question, but there's no clear-cut answer (that's often the case in REI).

I definitely recommend taking some time to closely analyze and consider the rent market in your neighborhood, what type of tenant your property is currently attracting, and what type of tenant your property could attract after some upgrades. For instance, a C-grade property near a university will probably attract college students--most of whom will be young, and will have little or no experience renting a property. College kids are known to cause lots of property damage, and generally make managing the property a lot more difficult. Now, if you could take that hypothetical C-grade property and update it to make it a B+ or an A-, you might start attracting doctoral residents or visiting professors--these types of tenants will usually be much more reliable, cause less damage, and they have the money to pay for a higher grade property. My tenants are primarily in their late 20s through their 30s with high-skill careers (doctors, lawyers, engineers, nurses, etc.)--these tenants are fantastic because they're responsible, they have experience renting places, they never cause property damage or lease violations, they're professional and good communicators, and they have the income to pay for a high-grade property. A medical resident at the local hospital has put in a LOT of work and effort to get where they are, and they're unlikely to risk ruining their credit over silly late rent payments or property damage.

Having said that, if you upgrade that hypothetical C-grade property to an A-, but it's in an area where nobody has the money to pay the higher rent, or there aren't people interested in renting a higher grade property, then that's going to cost you (this is the classic case of over-improving a property--which a very common mistake by beginning real estate investors). In other words, it's difficult to sell a Rolls-Royce in a neighborhood where everyone is driving a Honda. 

So, in a nutshell, it all comes down to knowing your market and knowing your customer (anyone running a successful business will tell you that knowing the customers is critical).

In terms of actual improvements to make to a property--again, it all depends on a million factors like the tenant pool, the grade of properties in the neighborhood, the cost of the improvements, your cash on hand, your goals, etc., etc., but here are a few things to consider:

-New paint is one of the cheapest, fastest, and easiest ways to improve a property and get a bit higher rent. Especially if the existing paint and colors look dated, dirty, ugly, new paint can work wonders and can completely transform the vibe of a property. Google around to find info on what types of colors to go with (usually, neutral, bright colors work well).

-New carpet / flooring is usually the next step--it's usually a bit more expensive than paint, but it can greatly improve the attractiveness (and durability) of the property. Again, especially if the existing flooring is ugly/in bad shape, then you'll probably get a lot of bang for your buck by improving the floors. If you have hardwood floors that are in rough shape, get a quote for re-finishing them.

-Upgrading the lighting. This can be as simple as getting some better floor lamps, or as in-depth as upgrading the entire electrical system of the house (so again, you want to be mindful of not over-improving a property). ...but, good lighting can transform an ugly, un-inviting room into a really nice space.

-Depending on the layout of the property, adding a bedroom or adding a bathroom can greatly increase rent (if you think this is possible at your property, read up on the topic--there's plenty of info in the forums, on youtube, etc.)

-Sprucing up the kitchen or bathrooms can go a long way--painting old ugly cabinets, upgrading the countertops, replacing old beat-up appliances, etc.

-Think outside the box and consider what types of amenities tenants might like. Do your tenants have bicycles? If so, adding a shed for bike storage might get you a bit more in rent (and have the added bonus of keeping tenants from dragging their bikes through your house--which tends to cause damage). In some markets, coin-op laundry facilities are common in rentals--but in some markets and properties, a coin-op laundry would be a huge turn-off to potential tenants (so again, it all comes back to knowing the customers and your market).

-Talk to local real estate agents and landlords/property managers, and ask them what types of improvements they've seen that really increased the value of the property and/or the rent.

-Ask tenants (or potential tenants) what types of things they like and don't like about your property, and places they've rented in the past. This will help you understand what tenants value (and what they're willing and not willing to pay more rent for). ...of course, some tenants will suggest things that just aren't feasible or advisable from an investment standpoint (most tenants would love an in-ground pool or a hot tub, but in most cases, that would be a bad investment).

-It's not just about adding value--it's also about lowering expenses. I once bought a property that had a landscaper. At the time, I was young and had a lot of energy and time, but not much money. So, I started doing the landscaping myself--that saved me a decent chunk of cash. Analyze what your expenses are, and look for opportunities to reduce those expenses. Caveat: this does NOT mean "cutting corners" or doing something dangerous just to save a buck. An unlicensed electrician might be cheaper, but cheaper usually means lower quality. "Low quality" and "electrical work" are two phrases you never want to see together. Cheap electrical work puts your tenants' lives at risk, which isn't worth any amount of saved money. So, you gotta know where to cut costs, but also understand when and where to spend the big bucks for quality work.

Of course, there are some improvements/repairs that you have to make, even though they won't increase your rent a dime. Old knob & tube electrical systems? That stuff is dangerous and a huge liability, so it's gotta go--it'll cost a good chunk of money, and probably won't increase your rent at all, but it has to be done. That's the cost of doing business.

Those are a few ideas off the top of my head.

Good luck out there!

@Carlo D. it's not necessarily true that most RE investors look for a CoC of 7-10%. As with most things in REI, it all depends on a myriad of other factors--things like the grade of the property, the grade of the neighborhood, the investment strategy, the investor's net worth and experience level, the investor's goals, the difficulty or ease of managing the property, vacancy projections, etc., etc., etc. ...depending on these types of factors, a 7-10% COC might be a grand slam success, or a train wreck.

A 7-10% COC (after PM fees and all other expenses) on an A grade truly turn-key property in an appreciating area with a huge tenant pool might be enticing (and probably doesn't exist in today's market). But, 7-10% for a C grade property that no PM wants to manage because it's a magnet for crime, non-paying tenants, vacancy, evictions, and repairs? No thanks--wouldn't touch that with a ten foot pole.

A property can look GREAT on a spreadsheet (with a high COC, high cashflow, etc.), and it can still be a complete nightmare that can ruin your life (indeed, we see no shortage of beginners in the forums who talk about buying a property that looked GREAT on the spreadsheet, but which turned into a total disaster). ...and the opposite is also true--some properties look mediocre on a spreadsheet, but can be excellent investments for any number of reasons (e.g.; tax benefits, construction quality, tenant pool, value-add opportunities, ease of management, etc., etc.). This is what makes REI interesting, in my opinion--it requires the investor to understand so much more than just the numbers on the spreadsheet.

But, to answer your question: yes, I would run the numbers for COC when purchasing a property in cash. I would also run a LOT more numbers, and do a thorough cost / benefit analysis looking at numerous factors like what I described above. COC is just one of many factors to consider when investing in real estate, and simply hitting a specific COC number isn't necessarily the ultimate deciding factor in whether to buy a property.

Good luck out there!

@Brian Caulfield personally, I won't invest in anything less than a C+ grade area, regardless of the return (and I'd even be very skeptical of a C+ ...most of my portfolio is comprised of B and A's).

You could offer me the best CoC return ever on a D property, and I'd still pass. Why? My time, energy and skills are way too valuable to waste on the headaches of D grade properties. Moreover, the damage a D grade property would do to my overall business (sucking up time, energy and resources) would completely offset any "excellent" CoC return...and it DEFINITELY wouldn't be worth it for a 10-11% CoC return.

If you're a beginner, read up on all the horror stories on the forums of inexperienced investors chasing "excellent" CoC returns and cashflow in D areas --the story is always the same: they wanted cashflow, they bought in a D area, and within months they have non-paying tenants, a trashed property, an MIA property manager (who understandably will not put in the massive effort required to correctly manage a D property for the minimal money the property produces), and a world of pain. ...save yourself the headache, and start off house hacking in a B or better area.

Good luck out there!

"passively" owning a rental property is like "passively" raising a child.

Sure, one *can* do it, but the consequences are a nightmare for everyone involved, and someone will eventually call the cops.

I'm personally familiar with your area (I lived in Pittsburgh and Morgantown for years, drove through Washington Co countless times).

Personally, I wouldn't invest in Washington Co--as you mentioned, the appreciation is not good, and the headaches that come with C and D class areas are not worth any amount of cashflow to me.

A while ago, someone pitched me a property in that area, so I had my agent on the ground check out the property and run some analyses. The cashflow and CoC return were both phenomenal. The house was a new rehab--new everything. BUT, it was in a D class area. I turned it down.

A while later, I learned that another investor bought it, tenants moved in, and the cops were called to the property five times in the first two months for various tenant-caused problems (domestic disturbances, alleged drug dealing, trash being left on a neighbor's property, etc.). According to my agent who knew the investor, the tenants stopped paying rent around the third month. Six months later, the house had burned to the ground, and my agent said it had likely been set on fire by the tenants.

My time is WAY too valuable to deal with those types of problems.

Chasing cashflow in bad markets is probably one of the main traps new investors fall into--read the forums and you'll find countless stories of new investors buying in C and D areas because "the cashflow was excellent", and within six months they're at their wits end with non-paying tenants, police getting called to the property, property damage, MIA property managers, etc., etc.

I'd suggest other strategies, like house hacking and/or buying in markets with better appreciation and a better tenant pool (personally, I've found that doctoral students and medical students often make excellent tenants, assuming that your rent is in-line with their relatively low pay). Doctoral students are typically pretty organized, mature, professional, and they have a lot to lose (so they're relatively unlikely to do stupid stuff like risking their credit and reputation over nonpayment of rent).

Good luck out there!