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Blech. What a mess. It's a Catch 22. If you pull this post, then someone else will want to start one up because it's a naturally volitile topic, and if someone else comes along and doesn't know the history, they'll want to post a thread like this. But by allowing my post to remain, you have to worry about the heated discussion that may transpire, which will be a pain in the backside for you.

I understand if you want to pull the post.

Cheers,

Sean

Originally posted by "biggerpo":

Originally posted by "SeanBrown":

Zillow can't help it if the users can't follow the intuitive information they provide. I've said it before, and I'm saying it again, if the lowest-common-denominator users are too stupid to use the tool, the rest of us should not be penalized for their substandard genetic code or their lazy backsides.

Sean - This is where you are completely wrong. The users you call the "lowest common denominators" are the average person. Other then a hanful of non-professionals, most people I talk to think they are getting an accurate appraisal of their home (I talk to a lot of people!).

Don't go and start insulting people here. . . if the average guy misperceives what Zillow is doing, then they are doing something wrong, PERIOD!

That said, so far I've actually really enjoyed the debate going on here. Keep it clean . . . stay to the argument at hand and keep away from insulting one another. Thank you.

Yeah, it's a good discussion of the issue, I believe. I still think that most people don't think that it isn't an appraisal but some WAG, some sort of estimate. Is it possible to put a poll on this thread? Or is it possible to start a poll and then move these posts under that thread? I'd love to see what the responses would be! I'd suggest the poll be:

What do you think the number you get from Zillow, the "Zestimate" is?
a) An appraisal.
b) An estimate of the property's value.
c) The number of deodorant soap bars that it would take to fill the property.
d) A killer way to drive traffic to your ad driven site.

LOL, obviously just a. and b. unless you can come up with another good answer to throw in there. But a poll would be awesome.

Cheers,

Sean

Yes, you have selected on of many, many definitions of an appraisal. It does not make it THE definition. There are several that you can cite and several that I can cite, and there isn't a defnitive answer. I'm thinking anyone reading this thread can determine that just because you found a definition that suits your needs, there are many out there that suport mine (provided via the google link in my previous post).

The view you present is an interesting one, but it's NOT the DETAIL page about the property. Click on the link of the address in the view you show and you get http://www.zillow.com/HomeDetails.htm?zprop=58574781 which has exactly what I described. So are you telling me that not only is the link to the clear explanation of what a Zestimate is not good enough, but they have to tell you to go to the details page to get the DETAILS of the property? Giving half the answer is not the way to win your point just as not telling the whole truth is akin to lying. (I'm not calling you a liar here, I'm making the analogy of leaving out information.)

Zillow can't help it if the users can't follow the intuitive information they provide. I've said it before, and I'm saying it again, if the lowest-common-denominator users are too stupid to use the tool, the rest of us should not be penalized for their substandard genetic code or their lazy backsides.

Sean

[size=14]About Nouveau Riche[/size]
I've been hearing a lot about Nouveau Riche lately, and I would like to know what peoples' experiences have been with this company. I have dug around on the internet and found some information, which I'll link to below. The links contain information in favor of the company as well as negative information about them. I'm not here to promote or persecute the company, I just want to hear some good discussion about it. If you are supporting one side or the other and have a link you'd like added to this list, please post it below. I'll be notified by email and I'll come back and edit this post to add the link.

[size=14]Links to information about Nouveau Riche:[/size]
Nouveau Riche Official Website
(Hmm, I think that the above url has been banned from this site, which is a very cool forum feature that I was unaware of. Just Google the company and I'm sure you'll find their link at the top of the search.)
[NOTE FROM ADMIN - IT WAS BANNED DUE TO ABUSE]

Google link to search about "Nouveau Riche"
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22nouveau+riche%22&btnG=Google+Search

Wikipedia: Nouveau Riche University
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nouveau_Riche_University

Consumer Advocate Site: Scam.com
http://www.scam.com/showthread.php?t=6928

Consumer Advocate Site: RipOffReport.com
http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/ripoff205928.htm

John T. Reed on Nouveau Riche
http://johntreed.com/Reedgururating.html#Anchor-Nouveau-35882

[size=14]Articles regarding Nouveau Riche:[/size]
Forbes.com "Nouveau Riche"
http://members.forbes.com/forbes/2001/1008/078.html

FTC.gov Article on MLMs
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/invest/mlm.shtm

MLMIA.com The Official Site of the Multi-Level Marketing International Association
http://www.mlmia.com/

MLMWatch.org (multiple resources)
http://www.mlmwatch.org/

Originally posted by "TN-Apprentice":

You can't argue that an appraisal is defined as being done by an appraiser and that an appraiser is defined as someone who does appraisals.

Yes, you can. I am arguing that a part of the definition of "an appraisal" could and does include it being done by an appraiser (one who is licensed to provide an appraisal). If you Google "define:appraisal" you get http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&q=define%3Aappraisal and several sources use the term "appraiser" in the definition.

Originally posted by "TN-Apprentice":

A value estimation is an appraisal.

I am sorry, but if that is your whole definition, you are wrong. Once again, if a bank wouldn't accept a Zestimate as an appraisal, do you think your argument would change the fact that a Zestimate is not an appraisal? I think you know your logic is not supporting your side of the argument very well and that you're grasping at straws with a very weak logical approach.

Originally posted by "TN-Apprentice":

Nobody would give one hoot about Zillow if they didn't think it was telling them the value of their house.

Correct, but it's a far jump from "telling them the value" to "assuming it's an appraisal." Certainly, neither of us can prove what percentage are even foolish enough to ASSUME it's an appraisal (even when there are clear, explicit indications that it ISN'T presented as an appraisal.) So those reading this debate will have to make that call themselves.

Originally posted by "TN-Apprentice":

Zillow's claim that it's not an appraisal should only be said with a nod and a wink. Zillow wants to have its cake and eat it too.

Other than a trite saying, what do you mean by "Zillow wants to have its cake and eat it too"? They are CLEARLY saying it's not an appraisal. There isn't a wink and a nod. Have you even read the page that discusses this? Here it is: http://www.zillow.com/howto/Zestimate.htm Here's what that page says about a Zestimate:

[size=14]Is a Zestimate an appraisal?[/size]

The Zestimate is not an appraisal and you won't be able to use it in place of an appraisal, though you can certainly share it with real estate professionals. It is an estimate of the worth of a house today, given the data we have available. Zillow.com does not offer the Zestimate as the basis of any specific real-estate-related financial transaction. Our data sources may be incomplete or incorrect; also, we have not physically inspected a specific home. Remember, the Zestimate is a starting point and does not consider all the market intricacies that can determine the actual price a house will sell for, such as entertaining offers, negotiating, closing costs, timing, etc.

They could not care less whether the general public thinks it's an appraisal or not, they care that as many people provide as much traffic as possible to boost their advertising rates. They are not misleading anyone, and the only people who are dumb enough to think that what is being provided is an appraisal are too stupid to know what an appraisal really is. And as I've said earlier, what damage is done when lazy (won't read the information provided about what an appraisal is and what a Zestimate is), ignorant (those that choose to not educate themselves) mislead THEMSELVES?

Originally posted by "TN-Apprentice":

If Zillow were just providing factual information, it could present the raw data alone and let the user come to his/her own conclusion about value. Instead it provides, in large type, a single value (and later, on other screens and in smaller type, a range). That's what the people want, and that's what Zillow provides.

Dude, I enjoy a good debate, but have you even VISITED the site and TESTED what you are saying? YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY WRONG ON THIS, and you haven't taken the time to verify what you are saying. If you pull up the Zestimate for a specific property, it says in about 20 pt font the Zestimate and IMMEDIATELY below that number, in bold, orange 14 pt font it gives a range of 20%. Please, keep the discussion to the facts and don't go throwing in MISINFORMATION to make a point. The objective of these discussions is to FIND THE TRUTH through logical debate and discussion, not to win a point.

Originally posted by "TN-Apprentice":

(I also find Zillow very irritating in that it always says it's not compatible with my version of Firefox, which happens to be the latest 2.0.0.3 -- Let's get with the times, people!)

Alas, something we can truly agree on. Firefox rules!

Sean

Originally posted by "enjoidc":

You can get all of those advantages on your own easily.

You forgot
1. You have to use crappy realtor marketing (Huh? You use whatever marketing you want.)

2. You cant be creative in your selling marketing (Where are you getting this from? We can market however we want. We have to obey the LAW, but so do non-licensees.)

3. You have people watching you (What, so that you don't do something unethical? Get some integrity, will you? If you're doing things above the board, who cares if someone is watching you?)

4. You have to disclose (Disclose what, that you're a Realtor? Big deal. That something is wrong with the house? Are you that UNETHICAL that there are things you don't want to disclose that a Realtor would have to disclose? If you fail to disclose something (say, mold) and the owner finds out later, having a license will not exonerate you. The "you should have known better because your a licensee" is also applicable to the "you should have known better because you're a professional real estate investor." Disclose if there is something to disclose!)

5. You have to go take classes (I am a college student and have yet to see any classroom style education that is efficient. I COULD learn everything I have been taught in a month if I went about it efficiently.) (a) there are online courses if you want, b) there are correspondence courses if you want, c) the material is good information, d) if you're a student, they are a snap.)

6. You have to disclose you are a realtor on your marketing, business cards, and other stationary (I'm not 100% sure on this one, but pretty positive) (WHO CARES? This, to save a ton in commission and to be able to be on the MLS?)

I'm not saying this because I'm trying to bash being a realtor. I'm pointing these out because your post is obviously biased.

If after weighing the pros and cons you want to be a realtor, than JUMP on it! But don't just do it because.

Originally posted by "noobdog1":

if you approach everything with an attitude that is closed-minded before you actually do anything - you won't go anywhere.

being a real estate agent is an excellent way to learn the business of real estate. you don't pay a broker to "park your license" - you pay them for insurance and other fees - what you get in return is a chance to learn about buyers and sellers, learn the local market, make contacts with investors and all sorts of people.

don't let FEAR guide your thoughts about this or that - if you haven't done it yet.

all a disclosure says is that you're a sales agent - if you choose to buy your own listings or buy investments, all you have to do is let the sellers and parties involved know that you're an agent.

match whatever it is your skills are. start there - if you're "hands on" well than go for the inspection thing.

if you're starting an investment company - ask yourself this - how will being certified as an inspector help the business.

just don't get wrapped up in "thinking" to much. go out and DO.

from being an agent - you're salesmanship will increase - and in any business - if it is to be successful - either YOU or someone on your team MUST BE A SALESMAN. if you have no rainmaker - you'll get buried and broke quick.

just don't shoot anything down before doing it. have an open mind.

Very good advice. I agree.

Sean

Hi,
I'm Sean Brown. I'm the CEO of NARREIA, the National Association of Residential Real Estate Investment Advisors. I've posted detailed information about my organization in the " Real Estate Guru, Book & Course Reviews" area in the forum in the following thread: http://forums.biggerpockets.com/viewtopic.php?t=9121.

I live in Las Vegas (love the town). I have been doing real estate investment for over a decade and have been licensed as a real estate agent to buy and sell for others for over four years. I recently finished a 3 year leave of absence with United Airlines, so I'm back flying. This allows me to travel the world and the country looking out for real estate investment opportunities for our organization.

I'm always up for chatting about what is going on in the real estate investment world, so if anyone wants to talk, feel free to contact me. This is especially true if you are licensed and know a lot about real estate investment.

Cheers,

Sean

John can be quite acerbic and he is mostly negative, but his comments are rarely off the mark. I think everyone should visit the site to see what he has to say. I'm waiting for the day he reviews us, as I'm sure that something in what we say will rub him the wrong way (he's a staunch 20% down guy and I definitley enjoy the concept of leverage). Regardless, what he has to say definitely worth considering before getting into bed with one of the big named gurus.

Sean

Originally posted by "biggerpo":

I'm actually less interested in the law itself then the perceptions out there. The way I see it, most common people (not agents, mortgage folk, appraisers) still look at the valuations as appraisals. Yes, users can click on the small link provided and see that Zilllow doesn't claim their values to be appraisals, but most people simply won't do that. Until Zillow comes out and promotes the notion that they are not giving appraisals, people will continue to think that they are (and Zillow ain't going to do that anytime soon!).

Interesting. First of all, I don't think that even a majority of people think that a Zestimate is an appraisal. I think they look at the Zesitmate and say "Is that what my house is worth?" (Usually followed by "I know/thought it was worth so much more!") But if pressed to answer the question "Do you think that Zillow's Zestimate is an estimate of your house's value or do you think it is actually an Appraisal?" the majority would know enough that it isn't an appraisal.

If the non-industry people do not know the difference between an appraisal and someone giving them an estimated value of a home (with a 20% range), I don't really understand how they are harmed by the misperception. So they don't take the time to read the notice that this isn't an appraisal and they assume that the Zestimate is an appraisal, what is the worst that could come of it? All someone has to do is say "Click on that link there... see, it says it's not an appraisal." Is the danger that... man, I can't even think of anything that would be a danger. Do they think they are going to take a Zestimate to a bank? I just don't see how their ignorance is so dangerous that Zillow should be banned.

Once again, why should the ignorant dictate what the rest of us can have access to, especially when there is no real danger in it?

Sean