Wanting to Invest in TurnKey Properties. Need Advice However

Wanting to Invest in TurnKey Properties. Need Advice However

Union City, CA · Member since 2015 · 29 posts · 3 votes

Hello All,

 I am 30 year old male, trying to eventually buy in the CA Bay Area in about 4 years but will need a massive down payment (looking at roughly 160k)). I ran my numbers, my household saves roughly 3,300 a month. so technically in 4 years we can do it. Having said this, is turnkey properties something I should pursue? I say 4 years because eventually we want to start a family and schools in my area are not exactly up to our standards and don't want to rent at that point. 

I found the following deal via buymemphisnow in the 38116 area code at Memphis and ran the following numbers: 

  • Purchase price: 75,000
  • Down payment (25%): 18,750
  • Rent: 850.00
  • Monthly Expenses: -268 (mortgage) - 106 (taxes) - 85 (property management fee) – 85 (vacancy, 10% of rent)) – 42 (repairs, 5% of rent) – 50 (insurance) = -636
  • Net income: 850 Rent – 636 expenses =
    • i.   214.00 monthly
    • ii.  2,568 yearly
  • Cap rate: 5784 (yearly net without mortgage)  / 75000 = 7.7%
  • .2568/ 18750 = 13.7% cash on cash return. 

1. Looking at the numbers, I can potentially keep investing in properties such as this yearly until year 4 and net 20,640.00 (1,720.00 monthly), excluding any rent increases. Having said that, should I then do a FHA loan, and use the extra income to pay off the PMI for 800k home (650.00)? Or would it be better to do the "traditional" way and save for down payment via saving from our salaries.

2. With a 214.00 monthly net, I feel like one major repair issue can destroy a year of revenue even with setting aside 5% for expenses. Whats everyone's experience on this? Do I need to add a warranty as well  with the 5%. 

thank you

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Memphis, TN · Member since 2013 · 969 posts · 524 votes
10y

@Abdul R.

I think that's a great idea if you are purchasing 4 homes or more to get a bigger discount on purchase price 10-15% discounts is awesome.. But what are we basing the 10-15% discount on List Price or actual appraised price by an appraiser that you FIND/ contact and hire not one the turnkey operator refers/contacts and hires.... I am not sure why BUT for some strange reason those appraisals always come back for more or at list price.... LOL How STRANGE!!! 

ALSO I don't know who wouldn't give you a discount if you purchase 4 homes from them at one time even 2 or 3 homes is enough to give a discount in my eyes.. Because I DEFINITELY would do the same thing that Fshomes is doing it's a no brainer in my eyes!!!

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  • Investor/RE Broker · Eugene, OR · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 968 votes
    10y

    @Abdul R. If you are looking to save up to buy your family home in a few years, I would say that the turnkey property investment strategy is a fairly risky strategy especially at the price/rent ratio in your example.  With turnkey and leveraging you should think of it as longer term - 5 years plus - investment.   You may want to consider investing in a diversified real estate fund or becoming a private lender to a flipper (turnkey or retail) of an easy 8-12% annual return on your investment.  If you do your due diligence on the borrower then this can be a lower risk and shorter term (6 months - 2 years) investment, and you can rotate it.  Something to consider.

  • Union City, CA · Member since 2015 · 29 posts · 3 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Larry Fried:

    @Abdul R. If you are looking to save up to buy your family home in a few years, I would say that the turnkey property investment strategy is a fairly risky strategy especially at the price/rent ratio in your example.  With turnkey and leveraging you should think of it as longer term - 5 years plus - investment.   You may want to consider investing in a diversified real estate fund or becoming a private lender to a flipper (turnkey or retail) of an easy 8-12% annual return on your investment.  If you do your due diligence on the borrower then this can be a lower risk and shorter term (6 months - 2 years) investment, and you can rotate it.  Something to consider.

     Thanks Larry for the input.  I sort of realized myself the  numbers don't add up, especially in light of fha max loan being  625,000 here   but I have looked into trying to be rent free in 5 years via turn key rentals.  I believe this goal is reachable if I work hard enough. 

  • Real Estate Coach · Venice Beach, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    Hey Abdul. Good questions/ponderings.

    I will say one thing....you can get higher returns in other markets than what that Memphis calculation shows. Another trick with turnkeys is if you work with the best companies, you shouldn't have any major repair issue for a few years. Smaller repairs, yes, but all major appliances and big stuff should be new or with a lot of life left with the turnkeys (always verify each one's condition before closing). Another thing is you will get more income than just the cash flow on the turnkeys....you will also get substantial tax benefits and possible appreciation/equity. 

    The difference with investing the turnkeys than in your local area is that you will be able to get positive cash flow, whereas locally you probably can't (and higher entry prices).

    Last note...you can't buy a turnkey with an FHA. The only way to get an FHA is if you live in one of the units of an investment property. Otherwise investment properties require 20-25% down. But you can do that, conventional mortgages, on the turnkeys.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    10y

    @Larry Fried  @Abdul R.   Larry EXCELLENT ADVICE...

  • Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2014 · 36 posts · 13 votes
    10y

    Can you rent in a good school district until prices in your area dip or at least are not increasing?  I have seen many cycles in California go up,  then not,  then go up, then go down.  Just remember you make money on the buy.  I still feel your first buy should be your own house.  Best wishes...you could get lucky...or not... hope others share their experiences to help!!

  • Logan AllecBusiness Member
    Accountant · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 980 votes
    10y

    @Abdul R., have you thought about house hacking?

    Clarita CPA Group516 Reviews
  • Union City, CA · Member since 2015 · 29 posts · 3 votes
    10y

    Thanks for the advice everyone! I decided I'm just going to focus on cash flow, and have my initial goal to  be rent free in  5 years.  

    If house prices drop in the bay area again, I guess I could always sell the turnkey homes or maybe borrow money from family.  

  • Memphis, TN · Member since 2013 · 969 posts · 524 votes
    10y

    @Abdul R.

    It's not as easy as you say to just sale a turnkey home especially if you are purchasing from a turnkey company and you didn't go out find the deal, rehab the property, etc...  Just want you to go into your decision with eyes wide open rarely you will be sold a turnkey property with built in 10-15% equity. Also in the Midwest appreciation is not a given as it is out West in the CA Bay area.  If you are only looking for Cash Flow Mid West is your place!!

  • Union City, CA · Member since 2015 · 29 posts · 3 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Derrick Craig:

    @Abdul R.

    It's not as easy as you say to just sale a turnkey home especially if you are purchasing from a turnkey company and you didn't go out find the deal, rehab the property, etc...  Just want you to go into your decision with eyes wide open rarely you will be sold a turnkey property with built in 10-15% equity. Also in the Midwest appreciation is not a given as it is out West in the CA Bay area.  If you are only looking for Cash Flow Mid West is your place!!

     Your right about that. But thinking about purchasing from an investment portfolio, they seem to offer 10-15% discounts when you buy multiple properties. Fshomes for example has a 4 home deal I'm seriously considering. Thoughts?  

  • Curt DavisBusiness Member
    Flipper/Rehabber · Memphis, TN · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    @Abdul R.

    You buy 4 homes from me and I will also give you as discount !!!

    Curt Davis - KAIZEN Realty538 Reviews
  • Memphis, TN · Member since 2013 · 969 posts · 524 votes
    10y

    @Abdul R.

    I think that's a great idea if you are purchasing 4 homes or more to get a bigger discount on purchase price 10-15% discounts is awesome.. But what are we basing the 10-15% discount on List Price or actual appraised price by an appraiser that you FIND/ contact and hire not one the turnkey operator refers/contacts and hires.... I am not sure why BUT for some strange reason those appraisals always come back for more or at list price.... LOL How STRANGE!!! 

    ALSO I don't know who wouldn't give you a discount if you purchase 4 homes from them at one time even 2 or 3 homes is enough to give a discount in my eyes.. Because I DEFINITELY would do the same thing that Fshomes is doing it's a no brainer in my eyes!!!

  • Union City, CA · Member since 2015 · 29 posts · 3 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Derrick Craig:

    @Abdul R.

    I think that's a great idea if you are purchasing 4 homes or more to get a bigger discount on purchase price 10-15% discounts is awesome.. But what are we basing the 10-15% discount on List Price or actual appraised price by an appraiser that you FIND/ contact and hire not one the turnkey operator refers/contacts and hires.... I am not sure why BUT for some strange reason those appraisals always come back for more or at list price.... LOL How STRANGE!!! 

    ALSO I don't know who wouldn't give you a discount if you purchase 4 homes from them at one time even 2 or 3 homes is enough to give a discount in my eyes.. Because I DEFINITELY would do the same thing that Fshomes is doing it's a no brainer in my eyes!!!

     Good points.  Can you just explain exactly what you mean by "those appraisals always come back for more or at list price." Appraised values are more then the list price? Isn't thst good? 

  • Mike D'ArrigoPro Member
    Turn key provider · San Jose, CA · Member since 2010 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    We sell turn keys in the Midwest but I have to agree with @Larry Fried. It's really a long term play, not a means of accumulating shorter term capital. Your returns can vary year to year if you have unanticipated expenses, vacancies and turn over costs.

  • Memphis, TN · Member since 2013 · 969 posts · 524 votes
    10y

    @Abdul R.

    I will address the Elephant in the Room....

    What I mean when I said,

    "those appraisals always come back for more or at list price."

    Example:

    It is similar to when the new rules in lending came down from the government that didn't allow Banks/Lenders/Financial institutions that are actively doing Mortgage loans to have any contact with appraisers that are hired to do appraisals on the properties that they are attempting to make a loan on.  In the governments eyes this is a conflict of interest it would give the impression that the banker tells the appraiser what he or she needs the house to appraise for the loan to work or close and the appraiser has added pressure on him because he wanted to get more deals coming his way (ie recession 2008-2012). That's why now Banks/lenders etc have 3rd party agencies that go out and hires the appraisers to do the apprasials on the properties and they are picked at random. 

    I have worked in the Financial industry for a very well known bank for over 12 years so I know first hand. What I am suggesting is a part of doing your own due diligence go find your own appraiser's through google or whomever but not appraiser's of any one that has a vested interest in seeing the deal close.

    Just my thoughts 

  • Union City, CA · Member since 2015 · 29 posts · 3 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Derrick Craig:

    @Abdul R.

    I will address the Elephant in the Room....

    What I mean when I said,

    "those appraisals always come back for more or at list price."

    Example:

    It is similar to when the new rules in lending came down from the government that didn't allow Banks/Lenders/Financial institutions that are actively doing Mortgage loans to have any contact with appraisers that are hired to do appraisals on the properties that they are attempting to make a loan on.  In the governments eyes this is a conflict of interest it would give the impression that the banker tells the appraiser what he or she needs the house to appraise for the loan to work or close and the appraiser has added pressure on him because he wanted to get more deals coming his way (ie recession 2008-2012). That's why now Banks/lenders etc have 3rd party agencies that go out and hires the appraisers to do the apprasials on the properties and they are picked at random. 

    I have worked in the Financial industry for a very well known bank for over 12 years so I know first hand. What I am suggesting is a part of doing your own due diligence go find your own appraiser's through google or whomever but not appraiser's of any one that has a vested interest in seeing the deal close.

    Just my thoughts 

     The example  such as above clearly illustrate the benefits of joining forums such as BP.  Thanks for the input! 

  • Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 6k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Abdul R.:
    Originally posted by @Derrick Craig:

    @Abdul R.

    It's not as easy as you say to just sale a turnkey home especially if you are purchasing from a turnkey company and you didn't go out find the deal, rehab the property, etc...  Just want you to go into your decision with eyes wide open rarely you will be sold a turnkey property with built in 10-15% equity. Also in the Midwest appreciation is not a given as it is out West in the CA Bay area.  If you are only looking for Cash Flow Mid West is your place!!

     Your right about that. But thinking about purchasing from an investment portfolio, they seem to offer 10-15% discounts when you buy multiple properties. Fshomes for example has a 4 home deal I'm seriously considering. Thoughts?  

    I see a lot of portfolios of properties for sale, supposedly for bulk discount. They remind me of when supermarkets sell their last tray of tomatoes for half price at the end of the day. You will have to throw out at least a third of them, but you're HOPING that you still got a bargain...

  • Mike D'ArrigoPro Member
    Turn key provider · San Jose, CA · Member since 2010 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Abdul R.:
    Originally posted by @Derrick Craig:

    @Abdul R.

    But what are we basing the 10-15% discount on List Price or actual appraised price by an appraiser that you FIND/ contact and hire not one the turnkey operator refers/contacts and hires.... I am not sure why BUT for some strange reason those appraisals always come back for more or at list price.... LOL How STRANGE!!! 

    What appraisals are coming in OVER asking price?? That is not common at all. There's a very good reason that appraisals often come in right at the purchase price. A big component of value is what a willing and able buyer will freely pay for a given property which is determined by the contract price. That then has to be supported by 6 comps. Appraisers rarely appraise above the contract price because there is no point.

    As far as turn key companies "hiring" appraisers, that can't happen unless it's a cash purchase. If the buyer is financing, the lender, not the buyer or the turn key company orders the appraisal and the lender has to go through an APM. They have NO direct contact with the appraiser.

  • Real Estate Investor · atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 456 posts · 237 votes
    10y

    Appraisers today have a very strong incentive to come in at close to sales price...it's called prison and plenty of appraisers in most major markets headed there in the not to distance past.  Some submarkets...like Memphis...are fairly small and, while these transactions are supposedly at arms length, the reality is that everyone knows one another.  So appraisals have gone from end of the spectrum to the other.

    If you're doing any kind of rental investing with borrowed money, the appraisal doesn't really mean much.  What you want to get to is net returns.....what is the net annual rent. When you get to a deal, hire your own inspector that YOU find to inspect the property...just as a check to find anything lurking beneath the surface.   If you're doing turn-key....as you will read all over BP - that means a lot of different things to different people.  The one thing it means to most all....is LONG TERM.  This isn't something with liquidity that you can get in and out of easily....except at a LOSS.  But you're priced out of your current market and that is the appeal to turn-keys.  You're saving a ton every month....but what if the economy crashes and you lose your job?  You have to think about worst case...stay positive but just know the risks.

    You've never owned a home and while they turn-keys are saying "sure...I will give you a discount"....they should really be saying "let's do ONE deal and see how it goes" then you can think about more based on experience.  This is really the advice that any of us should be giving you....along with @Larry Fried suggested.  There are quite a few options for the smaller investor.  If you are hell bent on turnkey, find an operator who has in-house management...there's one from memphis that regularly posts here...check them out.  Find one that offers some sort of rental guaranty...otherwise, they will churn you because that's how they make money!!  It's the management that will kill you not just what you paid for the property. 

    Memphis has Fedex but there are some really rough spots there and it's nationally ranked as a killing field....as is Atlanta.  Look to some other spots in the midwest...look for a college town where that single family can rent or convert to shared housing for better returns with the management. I hear a lot of good things about Indy...almost anywhere in the states is going to be cheaper than where you are.  I don't like it there....but there are a couple of good operators in Columbus and Cleveland Ohio.......take your time with it my friend....but if you do anything....just do ONE and play that out first.  When the market crashes and it will.....you can then march in and buy 2 or more for what you'd pay for 1 now....happy to help any way that I can! 

  • Isaac RowePro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2014 · 214 posts · 86 votes
    10y

    Just get a 3rd party opinion on value of a turnkey property.  So easy to buy a property and have negative equity. 

    In my opinion it is never OK to buy a property with negative or 0 equity (or even 5-10% equity) as the market can easily go down 5-10%, and then what do you do?  A major life circumstance can change and then you are stuck with an "Asset" you can't get out of.  

    There are plenty of good deals out there with positive equity, and you don't have to buy turnkey in order to find them.  

  • Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes
    10y

    Rental property is a long term game. I also would not recommend turnkey rentals if your looking for returns in the short term.

    Building long term wealth through principle paydown is the major reason one should build a rental portfolio.

  • Kalaheo, HI · Member since 2016 · 58 posts · 10 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Abdul R.:

    2. With a 214.00 monthly net, I feel like one major repair issue can destroy a year of revenue even with setting aside 5% for expenses. Whats everyone's experience on this? Do I need to add a warranty as well  with the 5%. 

     I second this question.  What's the thought about potentially losing out an entire year's worth of revenue?  

    TK is long term.  I'm entirely new to real estate so this may be completely off - but could you say that you could expect a major repair like this 1 out of every 5 years?  So it would make sense to calculate in a 20% loss per 5 years?

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