Student loans or investment property

Student loans or investment property

Member since 2019 · 31 posts · 94 votes

Together my husband and I have almost $200k in student loans with a significant portion of them being at 6% interest. 53k of that is at 6.8% and 7.2%. We currently live and work in Oregon and are interested in getting into the world of real estate investing. We had been renting our house in Utah, however we didn’t have much of a plan or a good team in place and recently sold it. Not for as much as we had hoped after sitting on the market for more than a few months and a big remodel after some awful tenants but still ended up with a fair amount of cash. We are trying to decide if we should use the money for a down payment on a single family home to use as a rental closer to where we can manage it ourselves or put it toward our student loans. We have no other high interest debt, have a reasonable mortgage on our home in Oregon with a fair amount of equity, 1 car payment with zero % interest and a 4 month safety net in place. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

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Jaron WallingPro Member
Rental Property Investor · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2018 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
7y

I would call up Dave Ramsey, have a chat, then report back what you find. I'll bring some popcorn for everyone. You have $200k in loans but needed a new car? I'm assuming that because they offer 0% interest on new cars. Most vehicles depreciate the moment you drive it off the lot. It's very clear what you need to do but I don't think this forum post is going to change anything. 

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  • Investor · Santa Barbara, CA · Member since 2013 · 658 posts · 315 votes
    7y

    To add to Mandee's idea of doing both.  If you figure out roughly the purchase price you will be investing in (sounds like around 200k) then keep the necessary funds to do a deal like that in a savings account (+2%) and you could use the what cash you have left over for student loan pay down.  You will need around $50k depending on how much of a project you are willing to tackle.  20% down + closing costs + minor repairs. Be patient for a great deal.

    Have you researched or made a phone call today about getting those student loans refinanced?

  • Investor · Saint Paul, MN · Member since 2015 · 663 posts · 512 votes
    7y

    @Ashley Gish

    I gave you solid advice. And that was to pay off your loans before you start investing because you have no money.

  • Investor · Saint Paul, MN · Member since 2015 · 663 posts · 512 votes
    7y

    @Syed H.

    Lol that was funny. I just can’t get over the excuse that someone has to take out that much in student loans to go into the medical field. There are many ways to save up money or to get scholarships and grants to go to medical school. I know of many who have done it, I work in the medical field as an IT Professional at the University of Minnesota. In fact if you took a couple years off before you went to medical school you could live on nothing, rent and save up as much as you possibly can.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Member since 2019 · 61 posts · 22 votes
    7y

    @Ashley Gish

    So tell me you went to college to be smart but you can't figure this out a new a no-brainer you have over 200k in debt and it's reported on your credit report . Dissolution should be crystal clear pay off the high debt student loans and go invest in real estate.

  • Member since 2019 · 4 posts · 2 votes
    7y

    I think it all comes down to the numbers and preference. As long as the investment property is going to make a return that's a higher % than that of your student loans interest than there is reason to assume you're making a smart choice by investing. 

    However, there are two types of people out there. Risk-loving and Risk-averse. the risk-averse would recommend paying off your student loans. The risk-loving would say the appreciation you would get on the property is of far more value and therefore more beneficial for you in the long run, even if the net margin is lower than your student loan interest rate. Other than that the only thing to keep in mind is that the economy has been breaking records for the past 10 years. Additionally, with the fed dropping the rates, indicating that the economy has come to a standstill and in need of a push, it might be wise to consider a possible economic downturn in the next 1-2+ years. That will have an effect on your investment property, and if you're still largely in debt possible insolvency for your family. 

    My personal opinion would be: it would be very hard for you to justify the purchase of an asset, in today's market, in Oregon that would give you above the needed ~6.5% return that you need to get. Multifamily would be the safest option, but that depends on where in Oregon. That being said if it were in Portland it would probably be at a much lower cap rate. The only possibility I see is a value ad play, and I don't know your experience with real estate but that has its own issues especially with the timing of the market. 

    I would pay off debt and hold cash for when the economy comes down and cash becomes king.

  • Investor · Santa Barbara, CA · Member since 2013 · 658 posts · 315 votes
    7y

    @Marcus Johnson

    Which do you think is a better choice?

      A.  "if you took a couple years off before you went to medical school you could live on nothing, rent and save up as much as you possibly can" as a waitress making 50k per year.

     B.  Take out a $200k in student loans to get through medical school.  Then "live on nothing, rent and save up" and pay back the loans while making $200k per year as a doctor.

    Hint: You wont be able to save up $200k as a waitress.

    I agree that it sucks to take on that kind of debt and not have tangible assets to show for it but education can be an extremely important investment.  It can be a terrible trap too, as a student its easy to think that your student debt will easily be paid off when you graduate and start making the big bucks.  All those psychology majors that end up with a career that has nothing to do with their college education really feel the pain of those student loans.  In the case of an MD or other highly paid professional getting their graduate degree, it makes sense, especially if they love what they do.  

  • Specialist · Nashville, TN · Member since 2019 · 187 posts · 83 votes
    7y

    @Ashley Gish thats why I never wanted to go to school..

    Anyways what I would do - is take enough for a downpayment on next investment, and put the rest in the debt.

    What I would recommend you even more to do- work more hours, budget your finances, by that, live in a cheap studio apartment/with roommates, do not eat in restaurants or go out.

    You are pretty stuck and you have to get out of this as soon as possible.

    My first 5 years when I tried to save as much money I lived in a 5 roommates apt, didn’t eat outside and in the meantime bought books about RE investing and educated myself.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Winston Salem, NC · Member since 2018 · 33 posts · 24 votes
    7y

    @Ashley Gish

    Throw that money to student loans. You do not need to be playing in real estate investing when you are in debt up to your eye balls. Look at Dave ramsey and research what he says about student loans and investing.

  • Specialist · Nashville, TN · Member since 2019 · 187 posts · 83 votes
    7y

    @Ashley Gish try sell your car as well and buy a cheaper older one.

  • Investor · Richmond, VA · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    7y

    @Ashley Gish,

    Personal finance isn't a one size fits all, so the people who say -- save up-- they are right.   The people who say go for it-- they are right too!    What matters is what works for you, and what your goals are.  

    I guess I'm in the minority, but I think student loans are a necessary evil in order to get a high paying job.  If you are hardcore Dave Ramsey, sure-- save and do whatever you need to get yourself to zero debt.. but IMO you'll miss opportunities.   I hate debt, but life isn't a savings race to get to zero.     When you get to zero,  guess what-- you're at zero.  

    There will never be a perfect time to invest IMO, there's always expenses/life that hits, so if you want to jump in-- and the numbers work-- go for it!       When we started investing, we had student loan debt (granted only like $60K), and guess what... 3 years later-- we still have it, prob like $57K now...  my biggest regrets now-- the houses we didn't buy when we could (and should!) have figured it out!  

    Figure out if you can swing it, you'll regret not trying more than if you try and have to sell!   I will say, with that much debt, you should have 7-8 months or more in an emergency account, actually more when you get more houses-- this is especially important if you get properties! Repairs can be very expensive!

  • Rental Property Investor · FL · Member since 2019 · 34 posts · 4 votes
    7y

    @Ashley Gish

    This probably is ****** for me to say but I wish the best of luck making this decision.

    I made a 2 family home invest a year ago knowing next month on the anniversary of buying it, I’d pay off my student loans. 45 more days $150 more dollars left.

    Do both... is my advice!

  • Halifax NS · Member since 2019 · 48 posts · 24 votes
    7y

    @Ashley Gish If you could find a multi family unit with the cash you have. My suggestion would be to go that route. Your student loans should have a fair bit of tax write offs.

  • Halifax NS · Member since 2019 · 48 posts · 24 votes
    7y

    @Marcus Johnson peoplr come on here for help and advice, not to be dragged through the mud. If you have nothing helpful just move on and don't bother saying nothing. This is a community to help each other, not try to make others feel like **** or bad about themselves. Not sure why you think you deserve to judge others on what they should and shouldn't be doing.

  • Engineer · Portland, OR · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    @Rhonda McDaniel the reason student loans are not bankrupt-able is because they are federally backstopped by Sallie Mae & Freddie Mac. So the idea is that taxpayers shouldn’t be subsidizing people who default or bankrupt their loans. So if you want to default on your loan let’s agree to stop federally backing this program as we agree it’s stupid. Put the loan risk on the private market just like normal loans.

    However it’s not ‘Trumo’ who is making you take these dumb loans, rather the same people you vote for are the exact people causing the problem by demanding that the federal government insures this dumb loan program so people can pursue 100k advanced pottery degrees. The same people you vote for are all about letting you default on taxpayers backed loans but those same clowns want to keep this broken system in place.

  • Member since 2019 · 23 posts · 20 votes
    7y

    i don't like this advice...to stop living - move in with 10 other people, eat ramen noodles, take bus, live in candlelight - all in order to pay off a $200k debt - that would take 10 years or more living like that! Imagine living that way for your prime adult life when all your friends/colleagues are enjoying themselves lol complete torture.

    In my opinion, people get student loans to get better jobs! Those that managed to save enough money working menial jobs to pay for their school - well congrats! good for you! but for majority of people that is not possible, sometimes there is no way to save when you have parents or kids to take care of - so a student loan is the only option. So whatever judgments you throw at people that have debt - it doesn't make you look more intelligent than them.

    I think if you are able to make payments on your student loans, and have some left over for saving/investing - then do both. Just be smart about it - do your calculations and research. Your investments should have the potential to pay off your loans.

    Just pleaseeeee don't shut yourself off from the world in order to pay off your debt in 10 years versus 15-20 years. Life is short!!!! Don't listen to the hermits. Yes they have great plans for the future - but what if they don't get there? My grandfather always worked, always planned for his great retirement, but then when he was finally done working he was too tired to do anything he planned. So plan ahead, but not too much ahead.

  • Financial Advisor · CA · Member since 2012 · 128 posts · 76 votes
    7y

    Assume inflation at 2-3%.  eg a $1000 a month payment becomes worth $970 in inflation adjusted terms in year 2,and likewise in year 3,4,5,6, etcetera.  So in terms of inflation your payment is declining 2-3 percent per year based on what money can buy. (You have to use your exact figures but using $1000 is easy for me here sitting on the couch.)

     If you buy a house where rents are rising, say a $1000 rent rises to $1030 or $1040 per month in year 2 and so forth in each subsequent year...  Point being that you have rising rents against static/declining fixed student loan payments.  Now consider additionally that your property increases in value 2-3 % per year.  Now consider you may (or may not depending on your situation_ benefit from depreciation.  (probably you will.)

    Need I go further?  If you buy right your rents will wipe out student loans.

  • Property Manager · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2016 · 15 posts · 14 votes
    7y

    @Ashley Gish You should do both. Not financial advice, but I would do the following in your situation: forget any idea of savings, retirement, etc. Focus on growth and debt pay down; you're not going to gain interest for retirement and savings akin to the interest lost to loans.  

    Use a debt restructuring strategy, I think one of the guru programs call it velocity banking. Turn your amortized interest into simple interest by paying chunks of the student loans and mortgages with revolving credit like credit cards or home equity lines to drastically reduce the total amount of interest you'll pay over the course of the loan.  

    Also, buy a property that you can live in and make a profit, duplex/multifamily, Airbnb rooms in a SFH, get out of paying rent. Using some strategies, you can also structure your mortgage with the seller however you want as long as they are alright with it.

    Make as much money as possible, keep a reasonable living budget that you can actually stick to and survive comfortably, and be prepared to work very hard. You can make a lot of money in real estate, but not if you think real estate is just waiting for the checks to roll in.

    I hope that helps a little.

  • Realtor · Westwood, MA · Member since 2015 · 145 posts · 67 votes
    7y

    @Ashley Gish Invest do not pay the loans off. (yet) They are decent interest rates and typically favorable clauses. Invest and cover the interest and more.

    There is a big political push to forgive student loans so keeping them may just pay off in other ways as well.

  • Rental Property Investor · Tremonton, UT · Member since 2019 · 15 posts · 6 votes
    7y

    @Ashley Gish

    @Brant Richardson gave you the best advice on here. Go get refinanced and breathe a sign of relief! Best of luck!!!

  • Scott WolfPro Member
    Lender · Boca Raton, FL · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 958 votes
    7y

    @Ashley Gish I may be late to the game, and certainly didn't read every response in this forum.  That being said, you should look into refinancing your student loans(if it was said before, I apologize), I always see ads for First Republic Bank with rates as low a 1.95%, and I'm sure there are other players in the game.  If you can get those to a manageable rate, you can invest and pay off the loans at the same time.

  • Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2016 · 140 posts · 119 votes
    7y

    Hi Ashley,

    I try to evaluate decisions like this based on the spread, how much of a guarenteed, "built-in" ROI will I recieve by paying down the debt in question vs. how much can I earn in the given investment? If your interest rates on your loans are higher than that which you could recieve from the investment, it would make more sense to pay down the loans first. The nice thing about debt payoff, in addition to the mental relief, is that it provides a guarenteed ROI in the amount of the interest attached to the debt. Nothing in the market will provide a similarly guareteed return, however there are of course "good" options.

    Depending on your cash position, you can split it up too, pay off the highest loans, say whatever is over 6% (or whatever you decide) and then use the remaining cash as a down payment for a rental (ideally, to house-hack if you can swing it with your current living situation). In addition to reducing your debt, depending on how your loans are structured, you will also reduce the amount of cashflow "out," maybe even significantly enough that the cashflow "in" provided by your new rental will cover what remains of your student loans. 

  • Member since 2019 · 31 posts · 94 votes
    7y

    @Brandon Ramsay thank you! And thank you to everyone for the constructive feedback. But to be honest this is my first time posting in this forum and likely will be the last. I have a good job that I enjoy and pays well and a nice home and great kids. I am financially stable and can easily afford my student loan payments and everything else I need for a very comfortable lifestyle to be honest. Just looking for a way to get things paid off a little more quickly. I certainly don’t need to be criticized or feel like I need to justify my schooling, career or lifestyle choices. I know we aren’t supposed to kill threads but if anyone knows of a way to make this one stop that would be amazing. This is becoming so much less than helpful.

  • Halifax NS · Member since 2019 · 48 posts · 24 votes
    7y

    @Ashley Gish sorry for the negative people being judgmental and a inconsiderate @$$. Don't let the few ruin anything for ya. There is a lot of good people on here with a lot of good info. :) Best of luck to ya either way.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2016 · 174 posts · 251 votes
    7y

    @Ashley Gish Great, question.  I'm sure many can relate so thanks for the post.

    Let me start by saying...Don't even think about paying off your student loans.  That is the mother load of bad ideas!  The Hindenburg was a better idea.  

    There is no rational reason to pay them off, especially if they're fixed rates.  And if they're not fixed rate re fi them asap with a fixed rate.  

    Several on the thread have given you some good advice, don't pay off student debt and buy a rental prop(s) to have tenants pay off you loans and build equity for you.  But I don't think they went far enough to explain why. 

    First let's go over the numbers so we can do a thorough analysis.  

    I don't know exactly how much you have to use for investments or debt reduction but I'll assume you have 200k because that's the amount of your loans and you're talking about paying them off.  This is enough where you could make all your student loan payments with the positive cash flow from the rental props if you invested the 200k.

    (I'd suggest markets in the Midwest and south where you can get a higher R/V ratio. If you're set on investing in Oregon, maybe you could check out Corvallis, Eugene, Hood River, etc. a smaller metro area that may have better R/V ratios.)  

    Now let's look at the rate of inflation.

    I've gone over this in great detail on other posts more pertaining to this topic so I won't get into the inflation details here.  That said, look at a chart of historic rates of inflation (far right column)

    2001-2018

    1967-1983

    The reason I wanted to show 67-83 is it was a time of higher inflation.  I think the probability of the US going through substantial rates of inflation over the couple decades is very high (again, that's a different post) but we'll just use the numbers from the past 18 years.  On average about 2.5% per annum. 

    For the sake of ease I'll say the positive cash flow coming in from the properties is $1000.  Initially this will all go to cover your monthly student loan payment.  But what happens when rents go up? And not even in real terms, just with the rate of inflation?  

    After 5 years you'll have an additional $131 monthly in rent above and beyond your student loan payments.  

    After 10 years you'll have an additional $280.08 per month.

    After 15 years you'll have an additional $448.30 monthly.

    And after 20 years you'll have an additional $638.62 monthly.  Using the mean number ($280) times the 240 months of the 20 year term of the student loan, you get about $67,000 in additional cash flow assuming rents go up at the rate of inflation and assuming inflation stays ridiculously low (which is possible but unlikely, and obviously this is a very crude number, but I don't have time to do the exact math) 

    What if the US averages 5% inflation over the next 20 years?  Totally possible, again look at 1967-1983.  

     Please notice the ending 20 year number at 2.5% ($1638) compared to 5% ($2653).  

    It becomes glaringly obvious how you make money off inflation because the debt payments stay the same.  But that's just the cash flow, now let's look at the appreciation.  

    Notice:  Over the long run homes don't appreciate, they merely go up with the rate of inflation.   

    But that doesn't mean you don't increase your purchasing power via inflation.  (Assuming you're using 30 year fixed rate debt, which is the second smartest thing you can do after not paying your student loans.)  

    Assume you have 200k in equity, but the combined value of the homes on you balance sheet is 500k.  If inflation increases by 10% the value of your assets goes to 550K, an increase of 50k.  But 50k is not a 10% increase of 200k, which is your investment.  It's 25%.  You've increased your purchasing power (made money) and your asset didn't appreciate it just went up with inflation.

    Here's what it looks like in the calculator. 

    Your asset went up in price by 319k but your investment was only 200k, so again, you increased your purchasing power or you made money.  Let's look at what happens with a 5% rate of inflation. 

    The numbers get big very fast. ;) 

    And remember your renters have been paying down the balance of your mortgages so you've got more equity as well.  

      After 20 years you'll have a balance of 146k, in other words, your renters paid you another 154k.

    But wait there's more! 

    You'll have the depreciation of the assets to use to offset part of your income.  

    Finally, lets add everything up to get an apples to apples comparison.  

    Choice #1, the Dave Ramsey (Hindenburg) option leaves you with:

    -  0 dollars in 20 years and 0 student loan debt in 20 years

    Choice #2, the rational option leaves you with: (nominal dollars)

    - 67k from cash flow

    - 319k from appreciation (inflation) 

    - 154k from renters paying your mortgage 

    - 200k from your original equity

    - ?? from tax deductions in the form of depreciation 

    - And 0 in student loan debt 

    For specific numbers please adjust for inflation but you get my point.  Not paying your student loans, taking the money and investing in cash flowing rental props with 30 year fixed rate debt, is the absolute no brainers of all time no brainers.  

    Good luck Ashley, I sincerely hoped that helped.

    George 

  • Member since 2018 · 151 posts · 140 votes
    7y

    @Ashley Gish I’m ten years in to repaying $50k of student loans. I didn’t prioritize these and spent money on a variety of different things, including real estate. Now, I’d give anything to have this paid off, and wish I would’ve done it sooner. I’m not a huge Dave Ramsey fan, but in this case I’d recommend you don’t gamble- pay down the loans and regain some control. Real estate will be there, and I’d bet that if you pay down half of those loans in the next 3-5 years, you’ll be in a great position as this economy tanks. Pay down the loans, don’t pretend like you have money you don’t.

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