rehabbing a waste of money?

rehabbing a waste of money?

Attorney · Portage, MI · Member since 2016 · 38 posts · 16 votes

I am a beginner who just "rehabbed" a house.  I followed the model you see on HGTv where an investor comes in and updates things.  I put in a new kitchen, new bathrooms, updated paint and floor coverings.  We finished the basement, updated the curb appeal, and took the house from 1972, to what looks like a new home.  

The house went under contract within a week, but failed to appraise.  In fact, the appraiser compared it to basic, unimproved houses.  Under finish quality, she just listed C3 or average for every house.  

My realtor says this is a mistake many investors make.  She says that updates are largely a waste since they don't add value to the house.  They make it sell faster, but you can't get more money.  I don't know if this is something unique to west Michigan or Kalamazoo.  But I see houses selling with green carpet, paneling, 1970s painted cabinets, and they fetch the same price as updated homes.  They may sit on the market 90 days longer.  But I think in this area, updates don't count for much.  Not sure if the buyer pool is uneducated about them, doesn't care about them, underestimates the value they add or what they cost or what.  

Basically, I am being told that every penny I spent on the basement was a waste, that I could have just freshened up the place with paint, clean low grade finishes, and it would have appraised for the same and even sold for the same.  As I look at the appraisal and recent sales data, I tend to agree.   Is this the experience of other West Michigan investors?  Fix and flip, yes because you make the property eligible for finance or fix some glaring cosmetics.  But rehab updating, is it worth it?  

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Rental Property Investor · Upstate, NY · Member since 2012 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
10y

I just wish local appraisers were as optimistic as our tax assessors who inflate (taxable) value beyond comprehension.

A colleague spent 3 months & a lot of money rehabbing a classic old home only to have it appraised too low. He gave in just to get rid of the carrying costs & cleared about $5k for 90 days of painful nights & weekends. 

Yet I see downsized new builds several miles from me selling out for $499,000 with DIY quality workmanship, RTA style kitchens, with 'premium lots' adding as much as $90k to the sale????

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  • Real Estate Agent · Buena Park, CA · Member since 2016 · 743 posts · 424 votes
    10y
    Sounds like you're a victim of a depressed market.The appraiser has to go by what other similar sized homes are going for in the area and too many crummy homes were sold at the same time depressing the values for better and updated homes like yours.Tough break,my friend.Very sorry about that.Sadly,this is a good lesson for everyone flipping homes to learn by making sure you know what updated quality homes are selling for in the neighborhood for the last 9 months before you buy the fixer upper.You may find out too many fixers were sold at low prices and not enough updated homes were sold at better prices to keep up the values.
  • Real Estate Agent · Buena Park, CA · Member since 2016 · 743 posts · 424 votes
    10y
    I myself just closed on a fixer and my partner really did a great job finding good comps that we want our project to aspire too.I was also worried about putting in too much improvement for no financial bonus money at the end.
  • Ned CareyPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    10y

    This goes to knowing your market and whether you can push up prices or not. You have to know your buyers expectations and whet they will and will not pay for. 

    However it seems you did find a buyer but the problem was simply the appraisal. I would challenge that appraisal and ask why she did not adjust for newer components in your house.  Comparing a new kitchen and bath to a 45 year old kitchen and bath is not a fair comparison. 

    Of course the devil is in the details. We don't know the quality of your work. Perhaps you left a 45 year old roof and the others put on a  new roof but left dated cosmetics.

  • Investor · Canton-Akron, OH · Member since 2012 · 917 posts · 477 votes
    10y

    I don't know your market but in our market, updates definitely increase values. We consistently sell our remodeled houses for  20%+ above similar unrehabbed houses. 

  • Attorney · Portage, MI · Member since 2016 · 38 posts · 16 votes
    10y
    That makes more sense to me, and I have a hard time believing what my realtor says. But, my question is, do you have appraisers who take the finishes into account? Every appraisal I have read just lists the finishes as average. Maybe we have a lazy appraisers here, but a finished basement that adds hundreds of square feet counts for zero if it does not have a walkout door. A brand-new furnace counts for nothing compared to an old one that works. Same with the roof or any other expensive mechanical. I guess my point is that appraisers have nothing to do with the real market value, and in fact they interfere with it. I wonder what Milton Friedman would have to say about that profession. But these realtors and appraisers seem to have the attitude that a house is a house. Hardwood floors are no different than carpeting, oak cabinets are no different then the new shaker, granite no better than laminate etc. so when you spend the extra money as I did, and the buyer is willing to pay more as mine were, in walks the so-called expert, and says none of that matters, then the buyer says, we were about to over pay for this house
  • Investor · Lake Saint Louis, MO · Member since 2015 · 84 posts · 39 votes
    10y

    Can you challenge the appraisal? What are the comps in the neighborhood compared to your asking price? Unfortunately if you put granite countertops in a Formica neighborhood you're not likely to get a return on that.

  • Investor · Vista, CA · Member since 2016 · 30 posts · 9 votes
    10y
    My wife's in mortgage and I have heard her go after bad appraisers. Meaning she asked for reappraisal due to insufficient not a true comps. Worth a shot. I had my house appraised after solar and happened to get lucky with any energy efficient appraiser, or what ever that is. I also think some appraisers don't want to go over board after they were bit at the last bubble. Sorry your hard work didn't pay off.
  • Realtor · Fresno, CA · Member since 2013 · 471 posts · 225 votes
    10y

    During a HELOC situation, they refused to loan on the asset because the appraiser reported some "dry rot" to the tune of $3,000 - We said we would fix it so they gave us a certain amount of time to fix it ( witch didn't happen so we had to start over again) - in any case work was done - looked great , was painted. When he came back to reinspect ( another $100) - he only remembered one location that had dry rot even though we had several square feet replaced in several different places - so I took him around and showed him all the new work - he signed off on it but would not increase the appraisal value. We fought back and forth with them about how an asset can go from uninsurable to insurable, have "$3000" in repairs and not gain any value whatsoever. Said it was based on local comps regardless and unless it was a complete major overhaul it would have made enough of a difference - ( except now they can lend on it) it was very frustrating - I don't want to rant but I could write a whole article on all the riduclous issues we dealt with trying to get that stupid HELOC - in fact I think I just might.

    @Jonathan - if you made any money off the deal then at least you came away with from it without losing out - It may have been an expensive lesson, but you have a deal under your belt , a little more experience, a more knowledge than when you first started - I think all us tend to make some mistake no matter how many deals we do - somewhere along the line we look back say  - I could have done that better if only I had .....   so don't be too hard on yourself. I don't know the area , but it does sound as some of the others were saying that you got caught up in a bad market. Whenever I am looking at comps - I try to determine if the homes had upgrades or were just plain jane and then note the differences in sale price. 

       P.S -  more time on BP and less time on HGTV - good luck  - looking forward to reading about your further adventures in real estate

  • Brooksville, FL · Member since 2012 · 429 posts · 220 votes
    10y

    Welcome to the school of hard knocks.  

  • Investor · Riverside, CA · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    Lesson 101 of investing - Give the market what the market wants.

    Why spend tons of money rehabbing a house if buyers are willing to buy similar properties, but finished with 1960s interiors? In my market, a rehabbed house will definitely sell faster, but I make so much more money selling properties with only light fix ups and basically putting them back on the market pretty much as I bought them. I'll do a few strategic things like convert a useless dining room into an extra bedroom, put el cheapo Chinese granite counter tops on crappy cabinets and paint them just to make them look good, replace the toilet, add some updated fixtures then, put some lipstick (paint) on that pig and sell it for almost top dollar. 

    I'm not in the business of doing full blown rehabs so I can impress my facebook friends with photos as I used to see so many other investors do... back when I had one of those totally useless and time sucking accounts. I want to make as much money on each deal as I can.

    If the market is willing to buy pigs with lipstick, I'm selling pigs with lipstick, eye shadow and maybe a splash of perfume.

  • Rental Property Investor · Upstate, NY · Member since 2012 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    I just wish local appraisers were as optimistic as our tax assessors who inflate (taxable) value beyond comprehension.

    A colleague spent 3 months & a lot of money rehabbing a classic old home only to have it appraised too low. He gave in just to get rid of the carrying costs & cleared about $5k for 90 days of painful nights & weekends. 

    Yet I see downsized new builds several miles from me selling out for $499,000 with DIY quality workmanship, RTA style kitchens, with 'premium lots' adding as much as $90k to the sale????

  • Vendor · Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2014 · 144 posts · 58 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Jay Orlauski:

    During a HELOC situation, they refused to loan on the asset because the appraiser reported some "dry rot" to the tune of $3,000 - We said we would fix it so they gave us a certain amount of time to fix it ( witch didn't happen so we had to start over again) - in any case work was done - looked great , was painted. When he came back to reinspect ( another $100) - he only remembered one location that had dry rot even though we had several square feet replaced in several different places - so I took him around and showed him all the new work - he signed off on it but would not increase the appraisal value. We fought back and forth with them about how an asset can go from uninsurable to insurable, have "$3000" in repairs and not gain any value whatsoever. Said it was based on local comps regardless and unless it was a complete major overhaul it would have made enough of a difference - ( except now they can lend on it) it was very frustrating - I don't want to rant but I could write a whole article on all the riduclous issues we dealt with trying to get that stupid HELOC - in fact I think I just might.

    @Jonathan - if you made any money off the deal then at least you came away with from it without losing out - It may have been an expensive lesson, but you have a deal under your belt , a little more experience, a more knowledge than when you first started - I think all us tend to make some mistake no matter how many deals we do - somewhere along the line we look back say  - I could have done that better if only I had .....   so don't be too hard on yourself. I don't know the area , but it does sound as some of the others were saying that you got caught up in a bad market. Whenever I am looking at comps - I try to determine if the homes had upgrades or were just plain jane and then note the differences in sale price. 

       P.S -  more time on BP and less time on HGTV - good luck  - looking forward to reading about your further adventures in real estate

     I just bought my 2 bed fixer upper for over the summer, lender had no problems rolling repairs into the loan.  Until the appraiser comes in and says this house is worth 42k needs this this this and this.  When every thing is fixed it will be worth 42k.  Yet there are plenty of comps in the area at 60k-90k.  The bank is local right up the street and has lent on plenty of houses on my street including the one right next door. Loan officer knew the appraiser screwed up but his hands were tied. 

    Same area one of the guys I work for refinanced all of his properties.  He has a 16 unit townhouse complex with 4 identical buildings.  Each set of 4 units has it own address.  Lender sends 4 different appraisers in one for each building.  All 4 were all over the place from 125k to 275k.  None of them were even close to each other. 

  • Rental Property Investor · West Bend, WI · Member since 2015 · 931 posts · 598 votes
    10y

    We see the same thing in Northern Wisconsin, you can have 2 1400 sq ft 3 bedroom ranches in the same neighborhood, one has not been touched since 1980, but clean and well kept, the other updated with, new cabinets, granite countertops, tile floors, new roof and siding, furnace, ect. they will both sell within 5% of one another. you have to get a deal when you buy, and be below market when your done, or your sunk.

  • Specialist · Lakewood, CO · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    Over-rehab happens. I know an investor here in Denver that made a property way nicer than the area. It won't appraise for that price and only people who are unfamiliar with the area think it is worth it. The bright side is, you can chalk up the cost to a very good education. Ask anyone who spent $20k on gurus how much they actually learned ;)

  • Flipper/Rehabber · York, UK · Member since 2013 · 895 posts · 453 votes
    10y

    How did you calculate your ARV in the first place? Generally you find your comps before you start a project so you know what price range you need to stay in. My Indy flip last year was in a very distressed area but there were other rehab and new build projects near enough to make it worthwhile. However I stayed away from the $150k ARV that I could have justified knowing it would sell much faster at $125ish. Based on that we made choices like going with laminate countertops instead of solid surface, etc.

    Having said all that, your realtor should be going to bat for you on the appraisal unless the home is simply way over improved for the area.  Can you give us more specifics.

  • Ramon HuertaPro Member
    Real Estate Agent · Kalamazoo, MI · Member since 2016 · 223 posts · 26 votes
    10y
    Jonathan David I am sorry this happened to you. I would try to see if the appraiser can work with you or possible have to get another opinion. I hope this does not discourage you from continuing your real estate journey. I would also recommend possible joining a local investor group where you can possible network and learn more about the local market. Some of those HGTV shows are fun but there is so much behind the scene that people don't see. If there is anything I can help you with let me know. I wish you the best.
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