House Hacking to New Construction Progression - Financing

House Hacking to New Construction Progression - Financing

Spokane, WA · Member since 2016 · 4 posts · 0 votes

Hi BP Community,

I'm fairly new to the site, but have been listening to the podcasts daily. Great info, and packed with lots of information. 

I'm a licensed architect working for a mid-size firm, now looking to get involved myself in real estate. I've been involved from the architect side for several years now, but being fee-based income allows for only so much growth potential. I also have experience working for a contractor in college, framing up wood framed buildings. 

My idea is to start with house hacking, maybe a triplex or quad. I think I have enough information to go on, just need to save some more capital and take the dive. 

Then I'd like to progress to multi-family new construction - with the idea of holding the properties I build. I feel confident given my background that the buildings I build would be solid and good long term investments. Always subject to things going wrong, but somehow if I draw the detail and am on site supervising, I think I'll sleep better at night. 

So with that in mind, I'm wondering about financing. I am not sure if I'll do a 203k loan with the house hack, it depends on the scale of the project, or just have a mortgage and pay the construction cost out of pocket. I understand that would allow me to do more of the work myself than a 203k, and have less paperwork. Does that sound right?

If this all goes well and then I decide to transition to new construction - I'm wondering how banks would see a holder of a multi-family property and collateral for a down payment on a construction loan. I know generally banks will want 20-25% down on a construction loan, which could be a substantial amount of cash depending on project scale. I'm sure I'll need lenders to get me to the down payment amount, but the more of that I can cover with personal capital the better. I've also read the potential of banks to allow for deferred architect/developer fees to count towards the down payment, but that seems to vary by location and I don't want to depend on that. 

Does anyone have insight to how a bank would see an applicant for a construction loan who holds a multifamily property on a mortgage? My debt-to-income ratio would be something to consider, but would they see the multi-family I would own as potential collateral on a down payment? I think it depends on my equity in the multi family, but I wonder if only the equity would count or if there's something else I should think about there. 

Also, understandably this is far in the future - I'll need to start with a house hack to get my feet wet, I don't think it is smart to jump in the deep end with a new construction project - unless if having the mortgage on a house hack would put me out of reach on getting a construction loan. Maybe I would want to sell the house hack to get a construction loan - but again ideally I'd like to be a buy and hold or build and hold investor.

I am in the phase of writing a business plan and this is more or less the long term trajectory I'm interested in. 

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated, and I'm excited to join and become active in this great community!

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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
9y

ON the construction loan side..  this is the hardest loan for someone new to get...

and virtually impossible at a bank if you have no track record..

You generally have to gut it out with equity partners and private or HML to build your book of success's and at least 2 years of profitability before a bank will even take a peek at you.

now there are banks that will do owner occ construction to perm loans.. like here in our area

its Washington Federal.. you may google them and read about the program then see if someone in IL does the same.

the other stuff is just vanilla  federally backed loans no mystery there.

as for your arch fee's as equity.. we really don't see this.. counted as equity at least in our area for resi construction as the fee's are quite nominal IE 3 to 10k to get a finished plans for new construction SFR's up to 4 plex's.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Architect · New York City, NY · Member since 2016 · 10 posts · 6 votes
    9y

    Hi Nathan, 

    I'm curious what information you have found regarding your statement: "I've also read the potential of banks to allow for deferred architect/developer fees to count towards the down payment, but that seems to vary by location and I don't want to depend on that."

    I am also an architect and looking into information on self-initiating projects. 

  • Wholetailer & Architect · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2015 · 544 posts · 298 votes
    9y
    Hi Nathan Hemming welcome to BP. I'm also an architect with similar long term goals. Generally once you property is seasoned (you can show proof of consistent rents) that cover all or most of the expenses it shouldn't count as a debt in your debt to income. Getting a 203k is great if you don't have the cash but there is more paperwork and oversight by the bank. So it can be good if you aren't that experienced since contractors only get paid in draws as work is completed. However, like you said if you want to do some work yourself or pay cash or get relationship discounts it may not work. I have also heard CDs can be used as part of your down payment. Jonathan Segal FAIA (he has an Arch as developer video course good for mindset and high level but not heavy on concrete steps.) is probably the best known architect developer and he calls the Johnny bucks. A colleague asked one bank and they said no but if you try 30 local banks I bet one will say yes. Chris Mason may have some great financing insight
  • Chris MasonPro Member
    Moderator
    Lender · CA · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Nathan Hemming:

    Hi BP Community,

    I am not sure if I'll do a 203k loan with the house hack, it depends on the scale of the project, or just have a mortgage and pay the construction cost out of pocket. I understand that would allow me to do more of the work myself than a 203k, and have less paperwork. Does that sound right?

     Hi Nathan, 

    That is correct. If the property is in financeable condition, it may make sense to put 3.5% down so you can keep the rest of the funds in your pocket, allowing you to pay cash for the renovation after closing, and then refinance in six months to drop mortgage insurance. With FHA 203k, every little things is going to be heavily scrutinized by underwriting (and the renovation component approximately doubles the amount of paperwork required) as these are high-risk loans.

    If it is NOT in financeable condition, you're stuck with hard money, 203k, FNMA HomeStyle reno, or cash, but not a vanilla mortgage. So you will have to convince the sellers to take your higher FHA 203k offer over all the lowball cash offers. Some people want top dollar, some are motivated by speed. The former is your target seller. Sometimes listing agents will straight up tell you "they are more motivated by getting top dollar than they are by speed," which is helpful.

  • Chris MasonPro Member
    Moderator
    Lender · CA · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    9y

    Thanks for the tag @Sean Walton.

  • Spokane, WA · Member since 2016 · 4 posts · 0 votes
    9y

    Thanks all for the comments, @Sean Walton, @Chris Mason, @James Petty. 

    James I got that information as Sean said from the Architect as Developer videos from Segal. He mentions the idea of Johnny bucks quite a bit, but I am unsure of how realistic that is. I think Sean is right, you just have to go to several banks to see what they say. I do think Segal kind of contradicts himself a bit - he recommends not getting licensed due to liability issues, but I don't see how you can get Johnny bucks on drawings if you are not a licensed architect. That to me would mean you'd have to hire a licensed architect to do the drawings, and then pay him the "Johnny bucks", so the whole point of it would be moot. I'm licensed and I think you kind of have to be to attempt this with a bank. 

    Thanks Sean and Chris for the 203k loan information - that confirms what I've been reading. I think it is a better idea for me just to be patient now, save cash, and not have to do a 203k loan. If I can do an FHA loan and have a low downpayment, then a significant amount of cash left, that would be a good way to do it.

    I'm a little unclear on the rents being seasoned and then not count on your DTI statement. Sean could you explain that a little more? Again my concern is wrapping myself up too much in a house hack, then having to wait years to do new construction. From what I've seen it seems like banks will look much harder at you when applying for a construction loan than when a building is already there, but I don't have enough experience with this.

    Thanks again, I appreciate the insight.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    9y

    ON the construction loan side..  this is the hardest loan for someone new to get...

    and virtually impossible at a bank if you have no track record..

    You generally have to gut it out with equity partners and private or HML to build your book of success's and at least 2 years of profitability before a bank will even take a peek at you.

    now there are banks that will do owner occ construction to perm loans.. like here in our area

    its Washington Federal.. you may google them and read about the program then see if someone in IL does the same.

    the other stuff is just vanilla  federally backed loans no mystery there.

    as for your arch fee's as equity.. we really don't see this.. counted as equity at least in our area for resi construction as the fee's are quite nominal IE 3 to 10k to get a finished plans for new construction SFR's up to 4 plex's.

  • Wholetailer & Architect · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2015 · 544 posts · 298 votes
    9y

    @Nathan Hemming A while back I had a rental that used to be my primary residence. I asked my mortgage broker if I want to buy another place will the rental mortgage count in my debt to income ratio and he said if you have tenants and a consistent record of payments that cover the mortgage and expenses they will basically ignore it in my DTI. Unfortunately it was cash flowing about $1000/month which they wouldn't let me count as income. I'm not sure how other banks will look at it but that is just the info I got from one guy.

  • Wholetailer & Architect · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2015 · 544 posts · 298 votes
    9y

    Yes Segal does seem to contradict himself there. I guess you could stay unlicensed and do all the design yourself "under the supervision" of a friend who is an architect, then have them stamp and sign, if it is multifamily. If it is a single family in most cases it doesn't need to be stamped. I think the big liability is if you have partners who decide to sue you or if you sell off the property before the 10 year statute of limitation on construction defects.

    I don't think Johnny bucks are going to get you to a 20% down payment but they might cover a portion of your down payment. I think what went along with that technique is it is better to pay yourself with equity in a project and rental income than architect wages that are taxed less andantagously

  • Architect · Chicago, IL · Member since 2017 · 53 posts · 17 votes
    9y

    Best of luck @Nathan Hemming! 

    I'm in a very similar boat, looking for a 3 or 4 unit to house hack, then hopefully get more property to renovate. I think I'm more on the renovation side than build new side (at least for now). Keep us updated with what you find and do. Also, I don't know if you go to the Chicago meetup, but the one I've been to was good!

  • Spokane, WA · Member since 2016 · 4 posts · 0 votes
    9y

    Thanks all again for the replies - I appreciate the insight. @Brian H. I'll look in to the Chicago meet up for sure. I'd like to get started with things like that, I'm teaching an intro class at a university in addition to my job here, so I've been strapped for time!

    @Sean Walton good point, and I think you're right, the benefit is paying yourself with equity rather than cash and getting taxed on that- I agree also that the big liability is with partners that could sue. Segal really stresses getting lenders rather than partners when doing new construction. It sounds like he used them for the down payment on the construction loan, then paid them off when it was finished with the permanent loan. So they get cash in and cash out at a good return, but no ownership stake. I think the sticking point is I know some banks will require someone with less experience to have a person with a higher net worth co-sign the loan. I don't know how great it sounds to an investor to just do cash in cash out on the down payment but yet have a whole lot more on the line, and no offer of any ownership stake in the finished project. 

    @Jay Hinrichs I'm wondering, and I still need to look in to it more myself, if the owner-occ model construction to permanent loan would be somewhat simpler. My idea is to build say 4 units and live in one, after having done a house hack on an existing building. 

    So the other three units in the new construction project would hopefully cover the mortgage, similar to the ideal house hack situation. Obviously that would give me only minimal real estate experience in a bank's eyes, but with me committing to living in the property I wonder if it makes it any less risky from the bank's perspective. I'm also wondering if I am the architect that signs the drawings and then also plans to live in one of the units if that counts towards anything. In my head it does, but I don't really know as I haven't approached anyone about that idea. 

    Thanks again!

  • Lender · Chicago, IL · Member since 2017 · 438 posts · 193 votes
    9y

    Hi Nathan! Lots to talk about here and a bit too complicated/long-winded by email and blogs, but the gist is that there are options for rehabbing a 2-4unit outside of FHA 203k (namely if it's going to be a primary residence). Then on the SFR construction side, that often requires at least 15% down, closer to 20%, or up to 25%. This depends on project size, location, and specific details, as well as borrower financials and "resume". If you have owned & managed property and/or rehabbed, we like to see that and it helps when deciding what your financing offer might look like. I agree that starting with a multi-unit as a primary residence and then down the road looking at ground-up construction is a better way to go vs construction right out of the gate. Hope that helps and happy to chat anytime!

  • Architect · New York City, NY · Member since 2016 · 10 posts · 6 votes
    9y

    @Nathan Hemming, 

    Yeah I have heard plenty regarding Segal and his Jonny Bucks. I'm curious to meet someone who has made that fatigued statement a reality. Thus far, I've only heard about the tactic of using CDs or deferred fees as debt collateral from people who are quoting Segal, but without personal experience. If you find someone, please let me know. I would love to hear about someone's personal experience. 

  • Developer · Covington, LA · Member since 2017 · 224 posts · 124 votes
    9y

    Welcome @James Petty

    As a residential spec builder, my business model is a bit different than the one you are pursuing.  But, both models normally rely on outside capital for financing. Yet, I think the term "down payment" can be a little confusing. I'll explain by example:

    I want to build a spec house. My designer draws up the plans, and based upon recent local comps the house appraises for $400,000. My bank agrees with the appraisal. If the bank's "down payment" requirement is 20% (or $80,000), I will not immediately have to come out of pocket with $80,000 to get the deal going. The bank is simply saying it will loan 80% of the value of the house or $320,000. I will have to come up with the difference between that amount and the cost.

    So, in this case, let's assume the actual cost to build the house was $350,000, I would have to fund out of pocket the difference, or $30,000. That is the cost of 350,000 minus the bank funded portion of 320,000.

    As is obvious, the builder's fee (or architect's fee) is inconsequential in this example.  

  • Architect · New York City, NY · Member since 2016 · 10 posts · 6 votes
    9y

    Thanks @Rogers Smith ! 

    It sounds as though if you knew that the bank was giving you 80% financing, that you have an incentive as the builder to build (using numbers from your example) a $400,000 home for $320,000 or less. Is this something you typically try to do? 

  • Developer · Covington, LA · Member since 2017 · 224 posts · 124 votes
    9y

    @James Petty rarely will my profit be 20% (or 80k on a 400k house). Generally, I aim for 50-60k profit per house in my market. As a builder you are always torn between loading up the house with a lot of cool (aka expensive) stuff and sell it quickly, or maximizing profit but potentially lengthening sale time. Good questions.

  • Jiva SegaranPro Member
    Flipper/Rehabber · Easton, MA · Member since 2014 · 84 posts · 22 votes
    9y

    Fascinating thread, Im looking into buying land and building a new home for myself and I already have a crew to do the finish work (when we arent flipping).  Been hearing quotes of $150-$250 per square for buildout. Using @Rogers Smith example above, if I can get the comps high enough and the land cheap enough, could be able to finance the project with little "actual" money down. Time to talk to the local banks.

  • Mandeville, LA · Member since 2017 · 1 post · 0 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Rogers Smith:

    Welcome @James Petty

    As a residential spec builder, my business model is a bit different than the one you are pursuing.  But, both models normally rely on outside capital for financing. Yet, I think the term "down payment" can be a little confusing. I'll explain by example:

    I want to build a spec house. My designer draws up the plans, and based upon recent local comps the house appraises for $400,000. My bank agrees with the appraisal. If the bank's "down payment" requirement is 20% (or $80,000), I will not immediately have to come out of pocket with $80,000 to get the deal going. The bank is simply saying it will loan 80% of the value of the house or $320,000. I will have to come up with the difference between that amount and the cost.

    So, in this case, let's assume the actual cost to build the house was $350,000, I would have to fund out of pocket the difference, or $30,000. That is the cost of 350,000 minus the bank funded portion of 320,000.

    As is obvious, the builder's fee (or architect's fee) is inconsequential in this example.  

    What bank are you using ? 

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