The US Economy Will Recover Quickly ??? Think Again !!!

The US Economy Will Recover Quickly ??? Think Again !!!

Investor · Yucaipa, CA · Member since 2011 · 162 posts · 232 votes

I keep hearing many investors speak of the housing market and stock market as if we are in a normal situation. Everything is great and the stimulus has solved all of the problems that a global pandemic has created. Take advantage of the situation and buy as many deals as you can before its to late. There are great deals in stocks that you should be pouncing on to ride the market to the new highs of 2021 and 2022. Trump looking good to get reelected will take us to places we have never been before with the US economy. Its really confusing and hard to believe that more people aren't sounding the alarm bells and getting ready for whats to come. Run while you can. This is just my opinion and everybody has there own way. I am not trying to offend anyone, and people must do what they feel is the right with there investment plans and strategies. Let me explain why are some of the reasons I think that the US economy is not ok, and we are up for some major pain to come.
 
Forbearance - Most inventors think that most banks are going to wrap your missed payments to the back end of your loan and you will not have to pay this until the end of your loan. So no big deal just 6 more payments and the loan will get paid off, but that is not the entire story. There are many private lenders who do not have to keep up good appearances in the public eye like the big banks do. They are going to require that the missed payments be paid all at once. With the majority of Americans living paycheck to paycheck this is just not going to be possible for them, and they will end up defaulting which will lead to a huge influx of foreclosures.

Brick and Mortar Jobs - Consumer confidence is at an all time low for going into buildings and doing business. This includes so many types of business' its very hard to name them all. All types of retail, hotels, restaurants, home goods, and small local business', to name a few. Many states have opened then shut down again and will not make the same mistake twice. This shut down will be much worse than the first because politicians will not want to look foolish if they reopen again and the numbers start to climb like they did the first time. With consumers not going out, how many people that are currently unemployed will get there jobs back. How could people think that this will have no effect at all on the US economy and that things will return to normal very soon. As soon as we get a vaccine or the numbers start trending lower everything will get right back to the way it was and business will be booming again in the US. This is a complicated process that will take years to come back from and In my opinion it has change the face of the way we do business forever.  

Inventory - With the above mentioned forbearance we are going to see huge amount of defaults. This is going to create a huge amount of inventory and the market will have no choice but to correct. Right now things look GREAT because of low inventory. This is causing a huge demand for housing because people are not selling like they were before covid, but when a flood of foreclosures hit the market things will shift. The banks are already preparing for this and have set aside billions to prepare for the coming flood of defaults and foreclosures.

Stimulus - Its going to dry up eventually, do you think they can keep pumping money into the market forever. When the bonus unemployment runs out and the bail outs stop there is going to be some pain. This is inevitable and the cheering bulls will soon start to change there tune and be heading for the hills.

RMBS and CMBS - this is a long complicated subject in itself, to long to list here and I am no expert, but all of these topics above are connected to mortgage backed securities. The government is not stepping in and helping the private lenders the way there helping Fanny and Freddie and once the banks start to sound the alarm bells the truth will come out and the market will correct.

Thanks for listening to my warning and rant. In my opinion if you can hold off or pass on some maybe marginal deals for the next few moths you should start to see more of the truth of the pain to come. Don't follow the masses. They are running straight off of a cliff and to me the signs are so obvious its hard not to see them. After all we are still in a global pandemic. Even though many people are trying to act like nothing is different, there going to have to face reality sooner or later, things have change and will take years to get back to the way they were before. Thanks Chris Gawlik

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Jimmy LieuBusiness Member
Real Estate Agent · Columbus, OH · Member since 2019 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
6y

Fed money printer go brrrrrrrrr 

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Henry Clark:

    @ Chris Gawlik   

    Nah, lets "jump off the cliff and toss the toaster into the bath tub".  Lets have some fun and go prepping.

    When it comes to your money, your always right.

    1.  Go to cash- like you said.

    2.  Next is where you put your cash.  First rule of prepping is don't tell them who you are and where your cash is.  Now all of your friends and relative know.

    3.  Where do you put your cash.  If things get that bad, pick the bank your going to trust.  Find which bank will make it through the next depression.  I live next to one of the top 25 banks to make it through the great depression and it is still run the same way.

    4.  Consolidate your loans/collateral at the bank you have your cash at.  If it gets tight you want the same bank to offset debt and cash.  If its at two banks, they may not release your cash.

    5.  9 to 5 job, what is your plan for when you two loose your job.  In other words don't just have cash.  Determine how much you have and for how long; and what is covered.  

    6.  For the Spelling aficionado in the first series of posts,  "there" funding needs to match "there" potential cash needs.  Brings back bad memories.  Two time spelling champion.  When I did a team, my teammate lost it on "Rhubarb".   Yep, the "H".  

    7.  Look at your family and friends.  Determine ahead of time who you will and won't fund or support during this time.  Take that into your cash needs.  Part of Prepping is determining who your circle of friends are, and what they bring to the table.

    8.  Take a cash safety position.  Example:  a.  So much in CD's, b.  So much in a safe deposit box, c.  So much in Gold/Silver, d.  etc.

    9.  Your near Los Angeles.  What's the plan to exit the city area? If it's that bad, LA is a hot spot.

    10.  With Covid, have you taken out Life Insurance for the family?

    11.  Health plan.  If unemployed, what is the plan?  Any pre-existing conditions or babies on the way?  How much cash is set aside.  Should be part of the plan.

    12.  Etc.

    The sign you want to look for, is when the Drug Cartels switch from US $20/$100 to Euros/Yen/Rupees.  They have no allegiance other than a safe monetary position.  By the way, for another Forum somewhere, if we were truly serious about Drug traffic we would set a "New" currency date and force all old bills to be converted to "New" currency.  Talk about a flood of cash back into the economy, talk about cash sitting on the sidelines.

    Folks, go with his thought.  Add to the above prep list.  Realize this topic was probably put out there as a teaser, but lets take it to its natural end result.  An action plan.


    It's his money, help him protect it and grow it; his way.

    Me, I'm about to spend $4mm in the next two years in Self Storage.  If it fails.  I have a plan and can take the hit.  

    Didn't India do something like your talking about call in all the cash ?

    Easy on the spelling.. :)

  • Investor · Yucaipa, CA · Member since 2011 · 162 posts · 232 votes
    6y

    Bad, bad, and more bad news is flowing from the economy. No one knows what will happen. This is an unprecedented time in our history of our nation and the world. Now the extra unemployment relief is starting to dry up in many states. Even though Trump signed an executive order, 20 million unemployed are not getting the extra money. This means there income is basically cut in half. This is getting a bit harder then we thought. There going to need more stimulus to get the country out of a pretty tough recession. Not sure how much more they can pump in, but congress won't even be back in session until Sep 7th. So unless they come up with some emergency meeting, or Trump pulls another unconstitutional exec order, looks like people will be on there own for a while. This is going to have a pretty bad impact on the economy. 

  • Investor · Yucaipa, CA · Member since 2011 · 162 posts · 232 votes
    6y
  • Real Estate Broker · Portland, OR · Member since 2019 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Chris Gawlik:

    I recommend you sell EVERYTHING.  I'll offer $0.25 on the dollar for what you have.

    Then you can use the proceeds to buy tinfoil and guns and rations for your bunker.

  • Member since 2020 · 201 posts · 118 votes
    6y

    Global stocks fall after Fed minutes leave investors uneasy

    Central bankers signalled they are not ready to launch new tools to bolster US economy

  • Member since 2020 · 201 posts · 118 votes
    6y

    U.S. Jobless Claims Rise to 1.1 Million in Latest Week

    U.S. Jobless Claims Rise to 1.1 Million in Latest Week

    New applications for unemployment benefits rose last week after a series of declines, showing that the labor market’s recovery from the effects of the pandemic remains uneven.

  • Investor · Yucaipa, CA · Member since 2011 · 162 posts · 232 votes
    6y

    @Juan Pardo yea this is far from over. As you know from the post I am more of a permabear but some of the bulls are starting to feel the sqeeze. If this starts to turn bad they will become very quite. As for me if I am wrong and not much happens with the RE market, I will gladly admit I was wrong and squandered my chances of becoming a multi millionaire. haha.  

  • Member since 2020 · 201 posts · 118 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Chris Gawlik:

    @Juan Pardo yea this is far from over. As you know from the post I am more of a permabear but some of the bulls are starting to feel the sqeeze. If this starts to turn bad they will become very quite. As for me if I am wrong and not much happens with the RE market, I will gladly admit I was wrong and squandered my chances of becoming a multi millionaire. haha.  

    I just look at the economic data, that keeps worsening by the day, and do not see any reason why anyone should be investing right now, let alone in real estate, with prices on a 7 year high.

    Real estate works in cycles and now prices are starting to go down, a signal that the cycle of rising prices is coming to an end. If we look at historical patterns, this may imply prices dropping further for an extended period. So why investing if further discounts are expected?

  • Investor · Yucaipa, CA · Member since 2011 · 162 posts · 232 votes
    6y

    @Juan Pardo I agree with you Juan. If you can hold off for a few months it would be best to see what happens. I also just followed buffett and purchased some gold and silver. Along with a few other mining stocks. I will keep buying gold for a few months to hedge against the falling price of the dollar and inflation. I do listen to peter schiff and I know he is always touting gold, but buffett betting against the US dollar should have had much more attention from the media. There barley spoke about it. I know some would say that he kept his other positions or its not much of his wealth, but Warren has always had nothing good to say about gold. Then suddenly he flips the switch and buys 500 million dollars worth. What we don't know is how much more he ha privately purchased. You know the guy has been planning this for a while and what he does not report to the SEC. Its a statement. Buy some gold.  

  • Member since 2020 · 201 posts · 118 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Chris Gawlik:

    @Juan Pardo I agree with you Juan. If you can hold off for a few months it would be best to see what happens. I also just followed buffett and purchased some gold and silver. Along with a few other mining stocks. I will keep buying gold for a few months to hedge against the falling price of the dollar and inflation. I do listen to peter schiff and I know he is always touting gold, but buffett betting against the US dollar should have had much more attention from the media. There barley spoke about it. I know some would say that he kept his other positions or its not much of his wealth, but Warren has always had nothing good to say about gold. Then suddenly he flips the switch and buys 500 million dollars worth. What we don't know is how much more he ha privately purchased. You know the guy has been planning this for a while and what he does not report to the SEC. Its a statement. Buy some gold.  

     I think it is wise to keep defensive investments or cash right now till the COVID situation gets better. In Europe some people are talking about a "second wave" and others say we are still on the first wave, and that winter will be worse..

  • Member since 2020 · 201 posts · 118 votes
    6y
  • Investor · Yucaipa, CA · Member since 2011 · 162 posts · 232 votes
    6y

    @Juan Pardo I don't think that link is working I tried to fix it, but I couldn't. You can search for that topic on google and find it though. Its an interesting article thanks Juan.

  • Member since 2020 · 201 posts · 118 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Chris Gawlik:

    @Juan Pardo I don't think that link is working I tried to fix it, but I couldn't. You can search for that topic on google and find it though. Its an interesting article thanks Juan.

    In Europe banks are already suffering, and the ECB will not be able to save them. Air traffic is down like -50%, which is previously unheard of, and specific to this COVID crisis. People are afraid of travelling. Consumption is also low. Bars and restaurants will go bankrupt by hundreds of thousands. Medium and small companies are going bankrupt. Unemployment is rocketing. 

    And this is just the beginning..

  • Investor · Member since 2019 · 74 posts · 70 votes
    6y

    @Juan Pardo what do you see unfolding? something like the Great Depression in the US? 

    and what are you doing to prepare for it?

  • Member since 2020 · 201 posts · 118 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Daniel Han:

    @Juan Pardo what do you see unfolding? something like the Great Depression in the US? 

    and what are you doing to prepare for it?

    I have cashed some properties already. I think the business will gravitate towards foreclosures, bank owned, short sales, etc, a more complex game than buy to rent or buy and hold. I have already placed my bets on some foreclosures too, not in the US.. this is slow and takes a long time to get resolved.

  • Contractor · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2020 · 29 posts · 15 votes
    6y

    It's interesting to see all of the opposing viewpoints on this subject. I think there's a lot to be learned from both sides. From all of the things I have learned over the podcasts, and others' experiences the takeaway is this: preparing for the worst and hoping for the best won't really get you anywhere. Any investor who can make good out of a bad situation will be able to stand the test of time. Markets rise and fall, but the smart investors are steady and consistent. 

    Let's not be so fearful of market corrections, but rather take it as an opportunity to solve new problems and learn! This is why I love Bigger Pockets so much; we can all come together as a community and fix the issues and offer help as they arise. 

  • Member since 2020 · 201 posts · 118 votes
    6y

    U.S. Debt Set to Exceed Size of Economy for Year, a First Since WWII

    U.S. government debt is on track to exceed the size of the economy for fiscal 2020, a milestone brought into reach by the coronavirus pandemic’s economic impact and the federal fiscal response.

  • Real Estate Agent · Atlanta · Member since 2019 · 4 posts · 2 votes
    6y

    Hey Chris thanks so much for posing this I completely agree with you 100%. There are many businesses now that aren't opening back up. 

  • Rental Property Investor · New Orleans, LA · Member since 2018 · 23 posts · 6 votes
    6y

    @Chris Gawlik I understand your thought process and considered doing the same thing. However, when I started really diving into it, I decided to hold on to my strong cash flowing multi-families. These are long term holds and my equity paydown and cash flow will continue(even if its less than before). If I sell, I would have to weigh the realtor fees, closing costs on a new purchase to replace the asset, taxes on my current gains. In addition, I would be missing out on the cash and equity paydown of holding the property. It depends what variables you use but the market would really have to crash to make it worth it. Also these are long term investments... I wont realize gains or losses until I sell.

    If the market really does crash it would likely be a result of significant inflation or mass defaults which would cause interest rates to rise. With really high inflation is your cash going to be worth as much? Will the RE losses in price offset a diminished dollar? Are the capital requirements after a crash going to change? I don't know the answer to any of those questions.

    Personally, I'm sticking with cash flow(holding reserves as well) and... this one may discredit me... bitcoin.  

  • Investor · Yucaipa, CA · Member since 2011 · 162 posts · 232 votes
    6y

      @John Dennis I agree some properties won't be worth selling, but I think I like J Scotts line of thought on this, if you don't want to hold on to a property for the next 5 years then you should sell it. He's the host of the bigger pockets business pod cast. 

    I think there will be deflation coming. That's what most bearish economist and hedge fund managers are trying to figure out ATM. Inflation or deflation. I am thinking with the amount of forbearance and rental moratoriums there is going to be massive deflation. Some of my lines of thought on this is just simple common sense. The forward momentum of money is just not there right now. There are so many negative things happening from all directions the trickle down effect will have a devastating impact on the economy over the next two years.

     This was actually happening before covid even started. I have discussed this before in some of my post only to be met by ridicule and laughter from the bulls and quite a few realtors. Look at when the fed started to lower rates. They started to do this in late 2019. The economy was already in trouble, covid just hammered the coffin shut.   

    I am gathering cash to get ready for what's coming. I believe that in some harder hit areas there will be some amazing opportunities if your willing to move to that location learn the markets that are the hardest hit. Listening to the bulls at this time is a fools game. Don't let them swing your opinion that everything is going to be fine and the market will keep going up forever. This global downturn is just beginning.  

  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Chris Gawlik:

      @John Dennis I agree some properties won't be worth selling, but I think I like J Scotts line of thought on this, if you don't want to hold on to a property for the next 5 years then you should sell it. He's the host of the bigger pockets business pod cast. 

    I think there will be deflation coming. That's what most bearish economist and hedge fund managers are trying to figure out ATM. Inflation or deflation. I am thinking with the amount of forbearance and rental moratoriums there is going to be massive deflation. Some of my lines of thought on this is just simple common sense. The forward momentum of money is just not there right now. There are so many negative things happening from all directions the trickle down effect will have a devastating impact on the economy over the next two years.

     This was actually happening before covid even started. I have discussed this before in some of my post only to be met by ridicule and laughter from the bulls and quite a few realtors. Look at when the fed started to lower rates. They started to do this in late 2019. The economy was already in trouble, covid just hammered the coffin shut.   

    I am gathering cash to get ready for what's coming. I believe that in some harder hit areas there will be some amazing opportunities if your willing to move to that location learn the markets that are the hardest hit. Listening to the bulls at this time is a fools game. Don't let them swing your opinion that everything is going to be fine and the market will keep going up forever. This global downturn is just beginning.  

     I am curious your perspective now, nine months after your warning post. You said to sell properties nine months ago. I purchased two properties since then and both are up $30,000 in value in less than six months. You said deflation is coming and we are actually experiencing major inflation. House values, rent values, food, automobiles, even used automobiles are all skyrocketing in value. Inflation hurts cash savings, so those who parked their money in cash are the losers right now. In the last nine months, there have been two more rounds of stimulus, which included hundreds of millions to help people with mortgages and rent. All this money is going to prevent a housing crisis. The fed is continuing to buy unlimited mortgage backed securities in an ongoing effort to hold interest rates on mortgages low. For states that reopened months ago, recovery happened fast. My state hit 3.5% unemployment by December and 2.9% in March. Wages are pushing up and companies are having trouble hiring. Unemployment has remained higher nationally, but only because of big states like California and New York were slow to reopen. Jobs will continue to recover as these states open and other states are dropping bonus federal unemployment. 

    Am I drinking the bull cool aide? It feels to me like we are on the start of a prosperous period. Are you ready to double down on your original prediction or has your perspective changed?

  • Jonathan StonePro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Camas, WA · Member since 2020 · 285 posts · 202 votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @John Dennis:

    @Chris Gawlik I understand your thought process and considered doing the same thing. However, when I started really diving into it, I decided to hold on to my strong cash flowing multi-families. These are long term holds and my equity paydown and cash flow will continue(even if its less than before). If I sell, I would have to weigh the realtor fees, closing costs on a new purchase to replace the asset, taxes on my current gains. In addition, I would be missing out on the cash and equity paydown of holding the property. It depends what variables you use but the market would really have to crash to make it worth it. Also these are long term investments... I wont realize gains or losses until I sell.

    If the market really does crash it would likely be a result of significant inflation or mass defaults which would cause interest rates to rise. With really high inflation is your cash going to be worth as much? Will the RE losses in price offset a diminished dollar? Are the capital requirements after a crash going to change? I don't know the answer to any of those questions.

    Personally, I'm sticking with cash flow(holding reserves as well) and... this one may discredit me... bitcoin.  

    8 months later it seems your strategy proved solid.  My only question is did you hold the bitcoin or re deploy that into your RE?

  • Rental Property Investor · New Orleans, LA · Member since 2018 · 23 posts · 6 votes
    5y

    @Jonathan Stone

    I HODL'd and bought more.

    I also purchased a 5 unit BRRR at the very end of 2021. It will hopefully be coming on the market to rent July 1st and should cash flow nicely. However, I don't want to count my chickens before they hatch.

  • Jonathan StonePro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Camas, WA · Member since 2020 · 285 posts · 202 votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @John Dennis:

    @Jonathan Stone

    I HODL'd and bought more.

    I also purchased a 5 unit BRRR at the very end of 2021. It will hopefully be coming on the market to rent July 1st and should cash flow nicely. However, I don't want to count my chickens before they hatch.

    Good luck on the BRRR and the HODLing. Maybe once your BRRR is done you can post in completed deal forum and we can all learn something.

  • Rental Property Investor · parksville, bc · Member since 2017 · 153 posts · 148 votes
    5y

    This thread is just a reminder that no one has a crystal ball. I had clients ask me a year ago if they should sell their investment properties, or buy more. I told them the same thing I always tell them. If you find a deal that cashflows and matches your criteria, but it. It's time in the market, not timing the market.

    No one knows if property will go up or down tomorrow. 2020 was a clear indication of that. Buy cashflow positive investments and hold them. 

    My clients that got fearful and didn't buy, need to come up with an extra 20% to get into the market now. Even if the market drops now, I can almost guarantee it won't drop by 20% to bring it back to 2019 prices. (That being said, I'm in Canada. We had minimal negative house price impacts from the 2008 crash due to stricter lending rules)

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