architects disagree on necessity of civil engineering services...

Los Angeles County, California
Land & New Construction
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architects disagree on necessity of civil engineering services...

Chris Morris
Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2019 · 77 posts · 23 votes

Architect A estimated I would need to pay $10K-$15K for civil engineering services for a 2 story ADU on a flat lot in Los Angeles.

They say it is for grading and low impact development/stormwater management).

Architect B thinks the civil engineering services could possibly be avoided entirely:

"Grading shouldnt be significant and not need design work.

FYI: Your property is in a special zone that requires extra hoops to jump through for grading, but I have only seen that triggered when excavating for a basement parking level. This would be an item that goes wrong, but is not anticipated.

LID/Stormwater can be covered by the architect/client with some simple notes and provisions for the project."

Any thoughts? Who is closer to the truth? 

Also, Architect B, if you see this post, no disrespect. I don't have experience in this area and am reaching out for more opinions. :-)

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Matt Devincenzo
Investor · Clairemont, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
3y

Both can be correct. I talk clients out of using me for site civil on projects all the time...but that exact same project with a different architect I'd absolutely suggest they use my services.

The response you received from architect B is predicated on them being comfortable doing that scope which is 100% feasible. But another architect may not have sufficient experience with the requirements generally, or maybe just in that jurisdiction. Either of those reasons would mean them covering that scope either delays the project or drives up design cost because it's outside their wheelhouse. So both are correct...you have to understand each scope and why/how you're choosing your team to get to your end result.

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  • Eliott Elias
    Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2021 · 9k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    3y

    The architect can't dictate what the engineers charge. Engineers won't do free work for you 

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  • Matt Devincenzo
    Investor · Clairemont, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    3y

    Both can be correct. I talk clients out of using me for site civil on projects all the time...but that exact same project with a different architect I'd absolutely suggest they use my services.

    The response you received from architect B is predicated on them being comfortable doing that scope which is 100% feasible. But another architect may not have sufficient experience with the requirements generally, or maybe just in that jurisdiction. Either of those reasons would mean them covering that scope either delays the project or drives up design cost because it's outside their wheelhouse. So both are correct...you have to understand each scope and why/how you're choosing your team to get to your end result.

    2Reply
  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    3y

    B is more typically correct in my experience.

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  • Kenneth GarrettPro Member
    Investor · Florida Panhandle/Illinois · Member since 2016 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    3y

    @Chris Morris

    I would look at this differently. First of all it’s the local jurisdiction who decides whether a civil engineer is required for your project. I would prefer to have an architect who can also do engineering, but that is not easy to do, it really depends on your market. In my area, most architects don’t touch civil work, there are to many pitfalls with storm water management requirements in the Chicago market.

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  • Jamie Hora
    Developer · San Antonio · Member since 2016 · 157 posts · 85 votes
    3y

    Does the City require grading/stormwater management plan for permitting?  I would consult with a local Civil Engineer to ask about this "special zone" the architect is referring to.  Also, if no Civil Engineer is required and this scope is added to the architect's contract, how much additional fee is that?  For example, if they are going to charge to $8k, perhaps is is not worth the $2k is savings by taking the risk of the architect doing this work.  

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  • Jared W SmithBusiness Member
    Architect · Westchester County, NY · Member since 2018 · 681 posts · 476 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Eliott Elias:

    The architect can't dictate what the engineers charge. Engineers won't do free work for you 


    I think it's more of an established relationship the architect has with the Civil Engineer and relays their cost if involved in the project. He likely is not dictating the cost at all. 

    I confer with many engineers I work with regularly. When I get an issue outside my expertise, I call them up and give them the scenario and ask for a fee range for the consulting services. Then relay that to the Owner, Investor, etc. to advise/discuss.  

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  • Mike Smith
    Boise, ID · Member since 2018 · 203 posts · 188 votes
    3y

    Option B.  The only tricky part is stormwater management, and you should be able to get a subcontractor to do that for less than $1500 on a flat lot.

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