Ability to exclude a person from the premesis
Michele FischerPro Member
Rental Property Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votesBackground: We rent a 3 bedroom house to a grandmother. She has her grandchildren live with her intermittently as needed. Not uncommon in low income households. Two of the teenagers are authorized on the rental agreement to each live there 180 days or less a year.
The teens have a reputation for being bad boys. We knew this from the police and from them attending school with our kids when we got the application. We told grandma when we accepted her that we were aware of the trouble they get into and would be monitoring the situation closely.
Grandma has lived there a bit over a year and there have been issues, none specifically tied to the teens. a typical low income tenant - not bad enough to kick out, not good enough to feel good about.
Friday we received a neighbor complaint on the boys written up by the police. We'll connect with the police next week to find out more, because it is written very vague, but it seems to be a nuisance complaint. I'd like to revoke their permission to live at our property, with 30 days notice. To be able to enforce it, I'd really like to disallow them from being on the premises at all.
My husband thinks this is harsh and possibly problematic. Thoughts?
Regardless of what you may require a tenant to agree to, they have rights of quiet enjoyment and use of the property, you can't chose their friends or family or dictate hours of visitation (except under certain circumstances as in a specialized housing complex). You can get to an understanding that if stuff continues the lease won't be renewed and if enforceable terms are violated you can terminate the lease. The policing is on Granny, not you. I also agree with your husband, pick your battles, her caring for grandkids from time to time isn't going to be a winner for you. You can't define what her family might be especially with minors. I'd just talk to granny and get an understanding.
They are family, so how would that go with Fair Housing?
Personally I am a HUGE believer in an ounce of protection = # of cure. So I don't think you are being to harsh.
What does your lease say? Anything about police reports allowing the landlord to revoke your authority to live in the house? Is she on a month to month or a yearly lease? How old are the "teens" are they older than 18?
I would check fair housing first so you make sure you don't violate it. I would definitely address the issue. I would just make sure you address it in a legal manner.
If you lease mentions illegal action as a way to terminate the lease
Than I would just say they are no longer allowed to live there
If she is on a month to month
I would rewrite the lease to no guests that had police reports written up on them (if allowed by fair housing). Thereby terminating the boys allowance to be there. I would also put a fine amount if they are found on the premise (if allowed). I have started to added fines because "eviciton" should be the last measure not the only measure if you violate the lease. I find that money talks!
Teens are above 18
When the lease comes up again, I would have no over over teh age of 18 allowed to stay more than x number of hours.
In this case I think the key is to figure out what the "legal" solution to address the matter should be.
I agree with your husband.
Low income tenant who pays their rent, why stir up problems?
Regardless of what you may require a tenant to agree to, they have rights of quiet enjoyment and use of the property, you can't chose their friends or family or dictate hours of visitation (except under certain circumstances as in a specialized housing complex). You can get to an understanding that if stuff continues the lease won't be renewed and if enforceable terms are violated you can terminate the lease. The policing is on Granny, not you. I also agree with your husband, pick your battles, her caring for grandkids from time to time isn't going to be a winner for you. You can't define what her family might be especially with minors. I'd just talk to granny and get an understanding.
Appreciating the feedback.
I didn't mention that they are on month-to-month. So we can give all tenants 30 days notice to vacate. And the teens are not yet 18. The rental agreement prohibits creating a nuisance by annoying, disturbing, inconveniencing, or interfering with the quiet enjoyment and peace and quiet of any nearby resident. There is also a crime free addendum, but it doesn't address being written up by the police, just illegal acts. This is breaking an ordinance rather than hard crime.
@Steve Babiak , the teens aren't full time occupants, so it doesn't feel like breaking up a family unit. She will be able to give notice and move if need be; we plan to give more than 30 days notice.
@James Wise , we are willing to overlook some stuff rather than go through another tenant turnover, but this seems to be getting out of hand. We'll be dealing with the neighbors longer than these tenants. And our mission is to improve the neighborhood, not choose the path of least resistance.
We will be requesting state specific guidance from our REI as well.
Listen to your husband. I think others have said this in a different way, but I would approach the problem as a "what" rather than a "who". Fix the problem of what is being done, because dealing with it as far as who is doing it will be impossible. Even if it were not a legal issue it would be impossible to restrict their visitation without causing problems.
I like a variation of @Elizabeth Colegrove's idea of fines. Maybe add in to the lease that all police reports involving problems caused by tenants, or their guests, will result in a $100 fine, to be donated to a charity benefiting police widows and children. That way you don't come off as greedy, and hopefully the problem gets resolved.
If granny has partial legal custody, you probably can't tell her the teens can't live there. If no legal custody, it seems to me that it might still be a problem because, like @Bill Gulley said, "they have rights of quiet enjoyment and use of the property, you can't chose their friends or family or dictate hours of visitation".
This is a tough one. If you are starting to get police reports from neighbors, it might be time to send all of them packing. But, I would try to have a talk with granny first about the issues.
What is an illegal act, according to who, maybe after they are convicted you could look to some illegal activity clause to enforce, you can't be the judge and jury. Some states provide for expedited evictions when drugs are involved and there is a reasonable finding of drug activity with evidence, like DEA says they collected 20 pounds of junk from the premises, but otherwise, you can have a beast of a time enforcing some aspect of illegal activity based on a police report or some observation without them being found guilty of that activity.
Consider too, who might help granny move, those same little trouble makers? They could also come back after granny is long gone too. I've always been able to motivate almost everyone to move out without going to court, in fact I'm in the process right now and while I said the end of the week, they have another place on Sept. 1st, they are packing and moving stuff to storage. You need to have a face to face with granny first, it's part of being a landlord, either you do it or your manager can do it. You need to communicate before you send a notice of eviction and surprise them without being financially ready to move out. That's how you end up with non-payments and lost rents trying to keep security deposits you may not be entitled to.
Again, like others have mentioned, go with the hubby on this one. :)
@Michele Fischer I certainly feel for you! I believe you do need the tenants out, as it is only a matter of time before the behavior repeats itself or becomes worse, given their history. Preserve the neighborhood and the faith the neighbors have in you.
At this juncture I would sit down with the Grandma and discuss the matter with her. Make it clear to the Grandma that she will need to supervise her grandchildren whenever they are on the property and hold her accountable for their behavior. Let her know this is not working for you and it may be time to work on a move-out plan. If she can not or will not do what needs to be done to save the tenancy, then she needs to be looking for another place to live.
Then arrange a meeting to discuss the matter with the Grandma and the grandsons together. Let them know what you value and what is expected of them when they are on your property. Tell them rule breaking and law breaking is not acceptable and there will be consequences. Their rule breaking and law breaking can lead to Grandma losing her home. "Your choice... everyone moves out or everyone abides by the terms of the rental agreement. Which will it be?" Go over every term of the rental agreement with all of them. At the same time, serve the tenant with a 10-day Notice to Comply with whatever terms of the rental agreement have been violated by Grandma and/or her invitees.
I would also serve a 30-day Notice to Change Terms of the rental agreement to include some fees for violations, if you don't have them already. If matters get worse, this still leaves you with the option to give them a 20-day Notice to Terminate the rental agreement (allowable in Washington State) by September 10 for a move-out date of September 30 or give Grandma until October 31 if she is cooperative. Watch the situation carefully and follow-up swiftly if there are any more problems.
Even a vacancy prior to the holidays is preferable to the nonsense the teenagers are bringing to your property and the neighborhood. Show the neighbors that you are on top of it and ask them to keep you in the loop if they see or hear of any more trouble. Perhaps Grandma is tired of the behavior of the teens too and will voluntarily ask the grandsons not to come around any more. Then you could proceed with the steps required to remove their names from the rental agreement. We once had a tenant ask us to serve a "No Trespass" on her daughter who didn't live at the property but was causing serious problems, including damage to our property. We did serve the "No Trespass" and the problems stopped. Let us know how it goes for you. Don't wait too long to take the action that you need to take!
Appreciate the continued thoughts and ideas.
I agree with focusing on the issue rather than who is causing the issue, and agree that my husband and I need to come to terms with the fact that we need to cut our losses with the entire family. We've been down this path enough to know that any improvement will be short lived. We'll have to ponder the additional fines, that is a good idea for all of our agreements.
Thanks!
Maybe creating a tenant handbook highlighting disturbances by guest or residents in relation to a lease violation which is subject to a 10 day & if problem persist a 30 day will be given and enforce it as a zero tolerance policy may help & have them sign.
I understand they are her grand-kids however if they understood their behavior is endangering the ability to stay of their grandmother then their attitude may change a bit. Meeting with them to discuss this may help.
From comments posted here, it seems you have two pretty cut-and-dry options. Don't renew and post 30 day notice for the whole package or let them stay as-is.
On a human level, chances are that Granny's just as frustrated as you are. We have several tenants with unmanageable teens (all working single mothers) who are at their wits' end. In lower income families, the kids tend to have the least supervision and the parents have the fewest support structures. Always difficult. In my opinion, if Granny's obstinate or full of excuses, lose them all because she is in denial that these kids are a problem and the situation won't change. (Also, keep in mind that we see just as many crazy neighbors with nothing but complaints, so verify your sources).
On a side note, @Bill Gulley asked what is an illegal act and according to whom. I was under the impression that, at least in Utah, there was no criminal due process for evicting based on illegal activity. If I decide a tenant's in violation of the lease because of illegal activity, I can evict. It is then the tenant's burden to prove not guilty through the statutory eviction process...and this has never happened. We only play this card when we feel we would be exposed to liabilities by not acting. Am I mistaken here?
Thanks,
Wm
You're correct generally, I don't know what Utah has but that's generally the issue as an eviction is a civil contract matter allowed by statute. My point was, illegal act could be double parking in front of the property, having a non-cooking fire for the kids camp out in the back yard, or getting a ticket for an inoperable vehicle in the front yard without tags....these misdemeanors are probably not going to hit the felony level, but even so, until there is a final determination of the matter the tenant is only accused of, not guilty of. A landlord can't determine guilt nor should they act on it until the pending case is finalized, then you have the justification of factual events to act upon. A police report is not evidence that any illegal activity has taken place.
When you through people out you better be on solid ground, you never know if that person is related to someone who could cause problems later on for you if you did a wrongful eviction or acted on a legally unenforceable clause in your lease agreement. You never know if some poor type will ever find a mentor or representative for a valid cause later on, while unlikely it's not impossible. ;)
The question is this.... do you have houses right next to it? It would be different in a multifamily where one problem tenant can cause issues with your other tenants, but.... are these kids destroying your home? If not, and the rent is paid on time.... then, here's what you have to ask next.... Are the neighbors who complained paying your rent? Will they care if you evict her and your house sits empty for a few weeks or months? Ask them if they'll help you pay holding costs until you find a quieter tenant.
Good point that neighbors can sometimes be part of the problem rather than the solution, we do need to always filter the feedback we're getting.
My husband wasn't able to connect with the police today (budget cuts is showing up in less accessibility for community issues), but he did drop by the property. They elected to move out, giving notice for the end of September, blaming the drug houses and issues on the block, which seems a bit ironic. I don't care what excuse they give as long as they view it as their idea to go.
Not excited to continue our streak of finding a new tenant every 2 months this year, but excited to have them leave, and on their own terms.
Good point that neighbors can sometimes be part of the problem rather than the solution, we do need to always filter the feedback we're getting.
My husband wasn't able to connect with the police today (budget cuts is showing up in less accessibility for community issues), but he did drop by the property. They elected to move out, giving notice for the end of September, blaming the drug houses and issues on the block, which seems a bit ironic. I don't care what excuse they give as long as they view it as their idea to go.
Not excited to continue our streak of finding a new tenant every 2 months this year, but excited to have them leave, and on their own terms.
I'm glad for you Michelle and Bruce! What a relief! So much better when problem causing tenants choose to move. Good work in helping them make that decision!