Hypothetical: taking tenant to court for damages

Hypothetical: taking tenant to court for damages

Rental Property Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes

Carpet is so trashed that it may need to be replaced. They will shampoo as required by the lease before leaving for Texas (they even said so), but judging by the type and amount of stains on what was spotless carpet before, I feel it's more likely it will need to be replaced. 

Damage deposit will of course not cover that. I have a lease, with the address of the bank for the deposit and a condition inventory from when they moved in AND pictures of before and here pretty soon, after. So I think I'm airtight legally.

Since the tenant is moving out of state, I suspect that if she doesn't send payment for the bill related to the damages I will send her, filing a case in small claims court will likely make me the default winner, not because I have all the documentation, but because she isn't going to be able to afford to fly here to defend herself. 

Since I will be getting her new address in Texas where she is moving to, I can have a process server deliver the notice to her if it goes that far. Of course even if I win a judgement I doubt I will get any money from her, but at this point, she isn't going to get away with it without a huge ding to her credit and background.

Also, I wonder if I can pursue the lost rent for the month it takes to turn. Lease says I can, and it's the lease provided by the state attorney generals office for landlords in WA. As of now I've been unable to rent the place to a new tenant because of the condition of the place.

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Investor · Vancouver, WA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
10y
Originally posted by @Jack B.:
Originally posted by @Marcia Maynard:
Originally posted by @Jack B.:

Since we are on the topic of misinterpretation, I think you misunderstand the residential landlord tenant lease provided by the AG's office. The lease template is written by attorneys. They provide a lease agreement that is to the letter of WA state law, and even cites RCW's.

I just called the Washington State Attorney General's office and they confirmed they do not provide residential landlord-tenant leases. I read to them what you posted and they said they have no knowledge of that lease agreement coming from their office. They provide resources on their website, but do not provide, nor endorse residential lease agreements.

Did you ask every person at the AG's office, past and present, or the person at the front desk that answers the phone and probably doesn't know much, lol? I suspect the ladder, as I doubt they just transfer you right away to the big wigs to ask questions. The lease was a template I downloaded from the AG's office years ago. 

In any case aside from your misinterpretation about giving the tenants a break on rent and the bad advice about whether I can sue them here if they move out of state, I can just send them to collections anyways. One thing I learned from this thread like many others here, is the quality of the advice is sub par. Lot's off people misread the information or just plain post their own subjective opinions as fact.

Would you be willing to show me the template that you downloaded from the AG's office years ago? I'd like to see how it's written and if it's still relevant to current L-T law. It's just that I've never heard of our L-T law allowing for a landlord to charge an outgoing tenant for loss of rent for the extra time it takes to turnover a unit that has more damages than normal. I've only heard that we can charge for the damages - labor & materials.

To answer your question, no, I didn't ask every person in the AG's office. I read the information on their website and made an inquiry by telephone. That seemed sufficient for me to determine the AG's office doesn't provide nor endorse a specific residential lease agreement for Washington State landlords. I try to keep current, so I was puzzled by what you originally posted. 

Thanks for clarifying what you meant when you said you were giving your tenant a break.... by not raising their rent sooner to market rate.

It's my intent to engage in helpful and respectful discussion. It's okay to have a difference of opinion too. I do think I provide a sound perspective that others find beneficial. I'm sorry if my perspective was not to your liking and not helpful to you.

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  • Richmond, VA · Member since 2015 · 3 posts · 0 votes
    10y

    Is the tenant breaking the lease early?  I'm not sure if I see how you can sue for the month it takes you to turn the unit if they are leaving at the end of the lease.

  • Rental Property Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Heather B.:

    Is the tenant breaking the lease early?  I'm not sure if I see how you can sue for the month it takes you to turn the unit if they are leaving at the end of the lease.

    As I had just stated, I can. It is allowed per the lease which has the state law on the matter written into it. 

    No, they are not breaking a lease, they are on a month to month. They gave 20 days notice after I raised their rent $400 a month to market rate. I was cutting them a break until I saw all the damage they had done...

    I'm more wondering if I can pursue damages for the lost months rent not only for the fact that it will take time to turn, but also, nobody would rent this place in this condition, and I can't exactly replace it while she is living there, nor would I; I'd end up replacing it twice in a month...

  • Investor · Vancouver, WA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y

    @Jack B. Whoa.... I live and invest in Washington State and have been a landlord here for over 20 years. I believe you may have misinterpreted what is allowed by the Washington State Residential Landlord-Tenant Act. Seattle has additional laws as well, that favor tenants more than landlords.

    Let's clarify a few things first. You say you had a lease (which would have an end date) and you also say you had a month-to-month rental agreement (which would have no definite end date). You raised the rent $400 and was also "cutting them a break". Huh?

    The tenants gave proper written legal notice to vacate, 20 days prior to the end of their last rental period right? Therefore they have no further obligations to pay rent for future months if they have indeed vacated the unit by the end of that rental period.

    It's a sad reality that some units take more time to turnover and the greater the damage, the more time it will take. You will lose some potential rent revenue, but you can't recover it from the out-going tenant. At least I've never heard of such; I'd be interested in seeing the wording of the lease you say was provided by the Washington State Attorney General's office. Especially since the AG office does not enforce L-T law and their website provides guidance to other resources. See: http://atg.wa.gov/residential-landlord-tenant-reso...

    What you can do, however, is account for the damages. Be sure to do this within the time period allowed by law, which may be 14 days or 21 days, depending on when the rental agreement was signed and the terms in the rental agreement.

    Depending on the age of the carpet and how long the tenant lived in the unit, what you see as carpet damage may be seen by a judge as ordinary wear and tear or the carpet may have reached the end of its useful life. If the carpet was new when they moved in and the damage has shortened its useful life, then you may be able to charge a percentage of the original value.

    Whether to pursue the tenant in small claims court is another matter. Rarely is it worth the time and effort. It also ties up valuable court resources. Instead, complete the final accounting for return of the deposit, mail it in the proper manner, wait for the tenant to respond. If she doesn't pay what is due to you in a timely manner, send her a demand letter, it she doesn't respond to that, then decide if the monetary value is worth a lawsuit. Whether you take it to court or not, you can still send it to collections and see if they have any luck with recovery. If you have a court judgement, it will be easier for the collection agency to recoup some of the money for you.

    Best practice is to screen potential tenants well, secure a sufficient security deposit at the beginning of the tenancy, do regular property inspections (at least twice a year, quarterly for some properties), charge for damages as they occur, and enforce the terms of the rental agreement swiftly and fairly. If you wait until the end of tenancy, the security deposit is rarely enough.

    [This is based on my experience. No legal advice.]

  • Lender · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    @Jack B. You're not going to get a default judgement because you're suing someone in Texas in Washington court. Regardless of where the incident occurred, you have to file a lawsuit in the county the person resides in, in most cases. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Marcia Maynard:

    @Jack B. Whoa.... I live and invest in Washington State and have been a landlord here for over 20 years. I believe you may have misinterpreted what is allowed by the Washington State Residential Landlord-Tenant Act. Seattle has additional laws as well, that favor tenants more than landlords.

    Let's clarify a few things first. You say you had a lease (which would have an end date) and you also say you had a month-to-month rental agreement (which would have no definite end date). You raised the rent $400 and was also "cutting them a break". Huh?

    The tenants gave proper written legal notice to vacate, 20 days prior to the end of their last rental period right? Therefore they have no further obligations to pay rent for future months if they have indeed vacated the unit by the end of that rental period.

    It's a sad reality that some units take more time to turnover and the greater the damage, the more time it will take. You will lose some potential rent revenue, but you can't recover it from the out-going tenant. At least I've never heard of such; I'd be interested in seeing the wording of the lease you say was provided by the Washington State Attorney General's office. Especially since the AG office does not enforce L-T law and their website provides guidance to other resources. See: http://atg.wa.gov/residential-landlord-tenant-reso...

    What you can do, however, is account for the damages. Be sure to do this within the time period allowed by law, which may be 14 days or 21 days, depending on when the rental agreement was signed and the terms in the rental agreement.

    Depending on the age of the carpet and how long the tenant lived in the unit, what you see as carpet damage may be seen by a judge as ordinary wear and tear or the carpet may have reached the end of its useful life. If the carpet was new when they moved in and the damage has shortened its useful life, then you may be able to charge a percentage of the original value.

    Whether to pursue the tenant in small claims court is another matter. Rarely is it worth the time and effort. It also ties up valuable court resources. Instead, complete the final accounting for return of the deposit, mail it in the proper manner, wait for the tenant to respond. If she doesn't pay what is due to you in a timely manner, send her a demand letter, it she doesn't respond to that, then decide if the monetary value is worth a lawsuit. Whether you take it to court or not, you can still send it to collections and see if they have any luck with recovery. If you have a court judgement, it will be easier for the collection agency to recoup some of the money for you.

    Best practice is to screen potential tenants well, secure a sufficient security deposit at the beginning of the tenancy, do regular property inspections (at least twice a year, quarterly for some properties), charge for damages as they occur, and enforce the terms of the rental agreement swiftly and fairly. If you wait until the end of tenancy, the security deposit is rarely enough.

    [This is based on my experience. No legal advice.]

    As I stated I had been cutting her a break by renting $400 below market....Not that I was cutting her a break by raising the rent $400

    Here it is again:

    They gave 20 days notice after I raised their rent $400 a month to market rate. I was cutting them a break until I saw all the damage they had done...

    As in...I raised their rent to market when I saw they were not taking care of the place. Not egregious enough to evict, but enough not to lose money on them.

    Since we are on the topic of misinterpretation, I think you misunderstand the residential landlord tenant lease provided by the AG's office. The lease template is written by attorneys. They provide a lease agreement that is to the letter of WA state law, and even cites RCW's. It states therein that:

    Resident is responsible for

    rent lost by Owner while performing repairs and/or cleaning because of Residents failure to comply with the foregoing. The Inventory and Inspection Checklist will

    be used to determine the refund of security deposit at the end of this tenancy.

    Furthermore, as I said I have pictures of the carpet before and no damage. Now I have lot's of pictures of a carpet that looks like it was used as a plate. 

    I hear what you're saying about court, but if it costs me 3K to replace the carpet and only a few bucks for small claims court fees and a few bucks for a process server, it's worth it. Also, I can apparently just send them to collections without a legal claim in court. They have to dispute it with the credit agency or via court if they don't agree.

  • Rental Property Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Jason Hirko:

    @Jack B. You're not going to get a default judgement because you're suing someone in Texas in Washington court. Regardless of where the incident occurred, you have to file a lawsuit in the county the person resides in, in most cases. 

     Ummm...not sure what you base this on, but you're wrong. The lease was entered into in WA so my claim is against her in WA. Here is this fact for you to read from an attorney for the exact same situation where a tenant left for another state. I just looked it up for you but I knew this before anyways, it's pretty common knowledge that criminal and civil crimes have to be tried in the jurisdiction in which they occured or as agreed to in a contract.

    http://ask-a-lawyer.freeadvice.com/law-questions/can-i-sue-small-claims-co-71943.htm

  • Lender · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    @Jack B. I did not read the part that said they were moving to Texas... I thought they were moving back to Texas and assumed they were Texas residents the whole time - Carry on!

  • San Jose, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    @Jack B. It looks to me like you know what you're doing.  And unless the statute portion you quoted is taken out of context, it looks like you can sue for lost rent.  And you're right - it's cheap to just put it before a judge and let him/her decide.  

    And yes, you can sue where the contract was performed.  This is actually why most tenants who move away never sue their landlords for illegally withholding their security deposits - because they have to sue where the contract took place.

    If you get a judgment first, a collector will take a smaller percentage.  If you send it straight to collections, they may end up getting a judgment on your behalf and then going after it - but they'll take a bigger chunk for doing so.

    The judge will take into account the age of the carpet, though, even if it looked great at the beginning of the tenancy.  If it was an older carpet, you can only get a pro-rated amount for replacing it, based on the total life left in it, as Marcia said.  So, for instance if the useful life was 6 years, and it was 3 years old when the tenant moved in, you can only charge them for half the cost of replacing it.

    Good luck.

  • Investor · Vancouver, WA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Jack B.:

    Since we are on the topic of misinterpretation, I think you misunderstand the residential landlord tenant lease provided by the AG's office. The lease template is written by attorneys. They provide a lease agreement that is to the letter of WA state law, and even cites RCW's.

    I just called the Washington State Attorney General's office and they confirmed they do not provide residential landlord-tenant leases. I read to them what you posted and they said they have no knowledge of that lease agreement coming from their office. They provide resources on their website, but do not provide, nor endorse residential lease agreements.

  • Rental Property Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Jason Hirko:

    @Jack B. I did not read the part that said they were moving to Texas... I thought they were moving back to Texas and assumed they were Texas residents the whole time - Carry on!

    Strange, from what you said earlier it seemed like you understood that I was talking about suing a tenant moving from WA to Texas, though the lease was in WA. You even said that I have to sue where the person resides in most cases, lol. Nice back pedaling though:

  • Lender · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    @Jack B. OK think what you want lol, but my thinking was simply that you were trying to sue someone who was a Texas resident in Washington, because they tore up your place in Washington. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Marcia Maynard:
    Originally posted by @Jack B.:

    Since we are on the topic of misinterpretation, I think you misunderstand the residential landlord tenant lease provided by the AG's office. The lease template is written by attorneys. They provide a lease agreement that is to the letter of WA state law, and even cites RCW's.

    I just called the Washington State Attorney General's office and they confirmed they do not provide residential landlord-tenant leases. I read to them what you posted and they said they have no knowledge of that lease agreement coming from their office. They provide resources on their website, but do not provide, nor endorse residential lease agreements.

    Did you ask every person at the AG's office, past and present, or the person at the front desk that answers the phone and probably doesn't know much, lol? I suspect the ladder, as I doubt they just transfer you right away to the big wigs to ask questions. The lease was a template I downloaded from the AG's office years ago. 

    In any case aside from your misinterpretation about giving the tenants a break on rent and the bad advice about whether I can sue them here if they move out of state, I can just send them to collections anyways. One thing I learned from this thread like many others here, is the quality of the advice is sub par. Lot's off people misread the information or just plain post their own subjective opinions as fact.

  • Investor · Hyattsville, MD · Member since 2012 · 822 posts · 441 votes
    10y

    When was the carpet installed? I ask because this might help you uncover how much you stand to recover in court and whether its worth your time, no matter how unjust the position of having long turnover and repair costs. Judge might ask for proof of invoice for your original cost and age of carpet. Then they'll randomly determine what he believes is the appropriate carpet life in the eyes of his court, such as 5-6 years for example. So if you bring your receipt of that carpet being installed 5 or more years ago, he'll take your 3k in replacement costs and divide that by remaining years of life left (almost zero) and grant you the balance to your repair. So be prepared to show proof of install (age) and have judge share what he thinks is what you deserve for the replacement. I would wait for the shampoo and cleaning and not blow things out before a professional has a stab at cleaning it. Make sure it was a reputable company too and consider having it spot cleaned by a more professional company if insufficient and deducting that extra cost to deposit. Worth a shot over a very long shot attempt to recover additional funds from tenants, no matter how good it might feel to get a judgement on them. Good luck!

  • Investor · San Marcos, TX · Member since 2015 · 272 posts · 360 votes
    10y
    Interesting conversation. Small claims court is easy unless you are a person that makes things harder on yourself. Using an argument that it ties up court resources is nonsense from my perspective. I pay a significant amount of taxes and have the right to access the legal system. Unlike plenty of people that contribute nothing and actually do tie up the legal system. However, my small claims court advice is that the law is irrelevant. Tell a good story, support it with an over abundance of evidence, and master using the other peoples words against them...you seem to be skilled at that with the back pedaling comment. My other advice is why carpet? Put laminates, tile or something in and consider them having done you a favor.
  • Rental Property Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    @Account Closed

    Thanks for the advice, all good points, especially Sue Kelly and Leland Barrow's. I have been planning on replacing the carpets at the rentals with vinyl plank laminate for years. Looks like now is the opportunity. 

    It appears I can just send them an itemized bill if it comes to it, and if they don't pay, send it to collections, as Sue said. If the tenant wants to fight it, they have to take it up with the collection agency or file suit, something I know they can't afford to do. At least I know the deposit will help cover some of it and at the end of the day, I've stopped them from doing any additional damage by enticing them to move, not to mention I'll be making 4K+ more a year once I find a new tenant.

    Funny thing is, she tried to scam me and claim she was going to get a room mate from work since she is a single income household so she could afford the rent when I had offered it to her for half way in between what she was paying now and what market rent is. Glad I decided to raise it to full rent under the circumstances of her getting a room mate, as it turns out she got married 6 months ago and it wasn't a room mate she wanted to bring in...Liar...

  • San Jose, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Jack B.:

    @Account Closed 

    @Jeff Bridges

    @Leland Barrow

    Thanks for the advice, all good points, especially Sue Kelly and Leland Barrow's. I have been planning on replacing the carpets at the rentals with vinyl plank laminate for years. Looks like now is the opportunity. 

    It appears I can just send them an itemized bill if it comes to it, and if they don't pay, send it to collections, as Sue said. If the tenant wants to fight it, they have to take it up with the collection agency or file suit, something I know they can't afford to do. At least I know the deposit will help cover some of it and at the end of the day, I've stopped them from doing any additional damage by enticing them to move, not to mention I'll be making 4K+ more a year once I find a new tenant.

    Funny thing is, she tried to scam me and claim she was going to get a room mate from work since she is a single income household so she could afford the rent when I had offered it to her for half way in between what she was paying now and what market rent is. Glad I decided to raise it to full rent under the circumstances of her getting a room mate, as it turns out she got married 6 months ago and it wasn't a room mate she wanted to bring in...Liar...

     It's a hard and painful lesson for a kind-hearted person to learn that with tenants, you treat them respectfully and fairly, but never do them any special favors.  The odds are that it won't be appreciated.  The landlord-tenant relationship is not a "friendly" one.  The tenant always knows that the landlord can render them homeless.  So, for any landlord to think in terms of being "friends" with their tenants, is unrealistic.  Neither side is "evil" for being the way they are.  But, this is first and foremost a business relationship of necessity, and a bit of a survival-of-the-fittest mentality.  To expect more than that is to be burned, unfortunately.

    Moral to the story is- to treat this as business first, and leave favors and emotions out of the picture.  You don't have to be cruel.  But, you need to be firm.  Pretend you are their banker.  Does the banker care about their personal problems, if they have a loan, etc.?  Nope.  They will treat them with respect, but tell them the terms of their loan, etc., and stand firm.  

  • Investor · Vancouver, WA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Jack B.:
    Originally posted by @Marcia Maynard:
    Originally posted by @Jack B.:

    Since we are on the topic of misinterpretation, I think you misunderstand the residential landlord tenant lease provided by the AG's office. The lease template is written by attorneys. They provide a lease agreement that is to the letter of WA state law, and even cites RCW's.

    I just called the Washington State Attorney General's office and they confirmed they do not provide residential landlord-tenant leases. I read to them what you posted and they said they have no knowledge of that lease agreement coming from their office. They provide resources on their website, but do not provide, nor endorse residential lease agreements.

    Did you ask every person at the AG's office, past and present, or the person at the front desk that answers the phone and probably doesn't know much, lol? I suspect the ladder, as I doubt they just transfer you right away to the big wigs to ask questions. The lease was a template I downloaded from the AG's office years ago. 

    In any case aside from your misinterpretation about giving the tenants a break on rent and the bad advice about whether I can sue them here if they move out of state, I can just send them to collections anyways. One thing I learned from this thread like many others here, is the quality of the advice is sub par. Lot's off people misread the information or just plain post their own subjective opinions as fact.

    Would you be willing to show me the template that you downloaded from the AG's office years ago? I'd like to see how it's written and if it's still relevant to current L-T law. It's just that I've never heard of our L-T law allowing for a landlord to charge an outgoing tenant for loss of rent for the extra time it takes to turnover a unit that has more damages than normal. I've only heard that we can charge for the damages - labor & materials.

    To answer your question, no, I didn't ask every person in the AG's office. I read the information on their website and made an inquiry by telephone. That seemed sufficient for me to determine the AG's office doesn't provide nor endorse a specific residential lease agreement for Washington State landlords. I try to keep current, so I was puzzled by what you originally posted. 

    Thanks for clarifying what you meant when you said you were giving your tenant a break.... by not raising their rent sooner to market rate.

    It's my intent to engage in helpful and respectful discussion. It's okay to have a difference of opinion too. I do think I provide a sound perspective that others find beneficial. I'm sorry if my perspective was not to your liking and not helpful to you.

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