Can I safely deny a family with kids?

Rental Property Investor · Jersey City, NJ · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 876 votes

I have a family of 4 wanting to look at a 650 ft 3rd floor unit with two 7"x10" bedrooms. I think it's too small for 4 and I don't want to burden the 2nd floor tenant with the noise. Do I have a risk just telling them I don't rent that unit to more than 3 people, or should I fib in some way like telling them it's taken? They're Latino, that really has nothing to do with it, but I just don't want to expose myself to a potential hassle.

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Brie SchmidtBusiness Member

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Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2013 · 6k+ posts · 5k+ votes

Originally posted by @Johann Jells:

Yes, it is a fair housing violation. If there are local housing laws that limit a certain amount of people per bedroom or sq footage than that is different. But in my area it is 2 people per bedroom and kids under 5 years old don't count

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Brie SchmidtBusiness Member
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Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2013 · 6k+ posts · 5k+ votes
9y
Originally posted by @Johann Jells:

I have a family of 4 wanting to look at a 650 ft 3rd floor unit with two 7"x10" bedrooms. I think it's too small for 4 and I don't want to burden the 2nd floor tenant with the noise. Do I have a risk just telling them I don't rent that unit to more than 3 people, or should I fib in some way like telling them it's taken? They're Latino, that really has nothing to do with it, but I just don't want to expose myself to a potential hassle.
Yes, it is a fair housing violation. If there are local housing laws that limit a certain amount of people per bedroom or sq footage than that is different. But in my area it is 2 people per bedroom and kids under 5 years old don't count
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Thomas S.
Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
9y
When turning down applicants you never give any reason unless your state regulations require it.
You simply inform them that you are sorry their application has not been accepted. For now you inform them you are still screening applications. Once you have chosen the most qualified applicant you inform all others the unit has been filled.
Never give any applicant any reason for why they were rejected. All it would do is give them ammunition to take you to court. You have the right to reject any applicant for something as simple as their attitude.
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Johann Jells
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Rental Property Investor · Jersey City, NJ · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 876 votes
9y
Originally posted by @Brie Schmidt:
Originally posted by @Johann Jells:

I have a family of 4 wanting to look at a 650 ft 3rd floor unit with two 7"x10" bedrooms. I think it's too small for 4 and I don't want to burden the 2nd floor tenant with the noise. Do I have a risk just telling them I don't rent that unit to more than 3 people, or should I fib in some way like telling them it's taken? They're Latino, that really has nothing to do with it, but I just don't want to expose myself to a potential hassle.
Yes, it is a fair housing violation. If there are local housing laws that limit a certain amount of people per bedroom or sq footage than that is different. But in my area it is 2 people per bedroom and kids under 5 years old don't count
Thanks @Brie Schmidt. Can you tell me a good reference for that fair housing code?
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Anthony Hurlburt
Salt Lake City, UT · Member since 2016 · 199 posts · 190 votes
9y
As @Brie Schmidt said what you are doing is a clear Fair Housing Violation. HUD allows two per bedroom plus one.
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Deanna McCormick
Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
9y
You can set the occupancy limits on your own apartments as long as it doesn't exceed city regulations.. I keep my occupancy per unit low.. I don't want the abuse from a larger group of people and 1 person per bedroom is enough. If they can't afford it then they shouldn't look at it.
I List in my ad occupancy limited to 2 people for a 2 br unit..
1 person for a 1 br apt.
So set your entire criteria for your rental before you start to show.. income requirements, credit score, number of occupants,, rental references needed, and list in your ad so they don't need to inquire if they don't qualify from the get go.
as far as your most recent showing,, they were just looking,, they gave you no deposit or application fees.. end of subject unless they call you back.
You could take the listing down and repost with updated criteria, so any further inquiries would now be on equal status..
You can not be the one to determine if a applicant is suitable to live in a basement apartment or 3rd floor.. on crutches or with a cane.. or with kids...it might be a temporary medical condition and assuming it isn't for them will get you in trouble.. as well as if ,you assumed the children would make noise on a 3rd floor apt to disturb lower tenants so your only going to show them a basement apartment.. it's called steering and part of Fair Housing.. let the applicant decide if it's right for themselves.. you decide if they meet the criteria of income, credit, occupants once they put in their application.
who knows maybe the kids were her nieces or nephews.. and not going to live with them or they were a blended family kids only part time the rest of time with the other parent.. It's hard.. but certain questions you can't pry.. you can ask HOW many people are you looking for housing for.. if they say more than what you permit ,,,you answer sorry that number does not meet my criteria and you end the appointment with a suggestion they see xxxx apartments down the street or something
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Christopher Winkler
Specialist · Dallas, TX · Member since 2014 · 900 posts · 392 votes
9y
The only thing you can discriminate on is the money. Charging the high end of what Rentometer shows keeps a lot of undesireables out, getting the ones that can afford it. And as Deanna says, always charge for everything, application fees, credit report, etc. Find out their income & expenses and see if they can afford it. Good luck!
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Johann Jells
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Rental Property Investor · Jersey City, NJ · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 876 votes
9y
Originally posted by @Deanna McCormick:

You can set the occupancy limits on your own apartments as long as it doesn't exceed city regulations.. I keep my occupancy per unit low.. I don't want the abuse from a larger group of people and 1 person per bedroom is enough. If they can't afford it then they shouldn't look at it.
I List in my ad occupancy limited to 2 people for a 2 br unit..
1 person for a 1 br apt.
So set your entire criteria for your rental before you start to show.. income requirements, credit score, number of occupants,, rental references needed, and list in your ad so they don't need to inquire if they don't qualify from the get go.
as far as your most recent showing,, they were just looking,, they gave you no deposit or application fees.. end of subject unless they call you back.
All great advice, thanks. I took a look at NJ regs on occupancy, and a 70 sq ft BR doesn't qualify for 2 people, meaning this 2br is one person per bedroom. Obviously if a couple rents it I don't have any way of enforcing this.
This is from Jersey City, NJ Code of Ordinance, Chapter 254 Article 7

ARTICLE VII - Minimum Space, Use and Egress Requirements
B.Required space in sleeping rooms. Except as required under Subsection C, each room utilized for sleeping purposes shall have a minimum dimension of seven (7) feet and a minimum net floor area of seventy (70) square feet for the initial occupant, fifty (50) square feet for each additional occupant, except that children under one (1) year of age shall not be counted as occupants for the purpose of this section. In existing structures built prior to 1951, if any dwelling has no room at least ten (10) feet by twelve (12) feet in size, two (2) persons will be allowed to sleep in the largest room therein so long as it is nine (9) feet in size at least.
The question this raises is can they say "oh, we'll use the living room as a 3rd bedroom". I have not shown this unit to the family in question, just responded to an email. I have another inquiry from a friend of the 2nd floor tenant, and I've found that in a 3U with a basement laundry having people being friends really keeps the friction down. Assuming they qualify, its a slam dunk.
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Brandon Norlund
Bountiful, UT · Member since 2017 · 17 posts · 11 votes
9y
If it is legally defined as a 2 bedroom unit, they cannot use the living room as a third bedroom.
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Brooklyn A.
Eustis, FL · Member since 2017 · 96 posts · 6 votes
9y
No. Not safely.
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Johann Jells
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Rental Property Investor · Jersey City, NJ · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 876 votes
9y
Originally posted by @Brandon Norlund:

If it is legally defined as a 2 bedroom unit, they cannot use the living room as a third bedroom.
Do you think that's actually enforceable? When I bought the place there was a couple and their two adult sons living there using it as a three-bedroom. It never occurred to me I could have evicted them based on over occupancy.
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Andrew B.
Rockaway, NJ · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
9y
Jersey laws are a little funky, so do follow up research, but landlord is typically allowed to set occupancy limits for their rental properties. you are free to set it at 4, 3, 2, or even 1 person as a limit, but this must be enacted across the board, to all future prospects. you also can not distinguish a difference between adults and children. I.e. you can say there is a limit of 3 humans, but you cannot say 2 adults and 1 child.
you should be perfectly within your rights to deny this family and it would not be a fair housing violation.
I am not a lawyer and the above is not legal advice
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Matt B.
Investor · Bethlehem, PA · Member since 2016 · 229 posts · 122 votes
9y
@Johann Jells You should also be aware that you posted this question under your name in a public forum. Should your tenants or their investigators ever come across this webpage (which I'm sure won't be difficult since your name is on it) they can use this against you in court should they choose to challenge your decision. Keep in mind that there are many tenants on this forum who come to learn and ask questions about issues with their landlord.
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John Thedford
Real Estate Broker · Naples, FL · Member since 2013 · 9k+ posts · 6k+ votes
9y
FRSHCRN rules.
If you violate that is can get VERY expensive. The government has unlimited resources which most investors do not. Local housing codes CAN be adhered to without fear of violating federal statute.
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Johann Jells
OP
Rental Property Investor · Jersey City, NJ · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 876 votes
9y
Originally posted by @Matt B.:

@Johann Jells You should also be aware that you posted this question under your name in a public forum.
Actually, since I only come here to give and get advice rather than network, I do not use my real name. Privacy is too precious to throw away without a compelling reason.
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Johann Jells
OP
Rental Property Investor · Jersey City, NJ · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 876 votes
9y
@matt bacenet, thanks for the up vote. I wasn't sure how that would go over here. I also don't do Facebook at all, not even with a fake name.
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Kimberly H.
Residential Real Estate Broker · Chicago Suburbs, IL · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 594 votes
9y
@Johann Jells In my area the city rental licenses set occupancy limits in a very similar way, a 70-99 sq ft bedroom is only for 1 person. We ask how many occupants, if it exceeds it the limit it's a no go. I have had people get angry a couple times and we just refer them to the city. Your place in my cities would only be rentable to 2 people. I actually don't mind it now, less wear and tear on the homes so we use that criteria for all our rentals.
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Johann Jells
OP
Rental Property Investor · Jersey City, NJ · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 876 votes
9y
Originally posted by @Kimberly H.:

@Johann Jells In my area the city rental licenses set occupancy limits in a very similar way, a 70-99 sq ft bedroom is only for 1 person. We ask how many occupants, if it exceeds it the limit it's a no go. I have had people get angry a couple times and we just refer them to the city. Your place in my cities would only be rentable to 2 people. I actually don't mind it now, less wear and tear on the homes so we use that criteria for all our rentals.
Thanks. What do you (or anyone) make of this passage, does it justify someone wanting to use the living room for 2 and 1 in each bedroom?
In existing structures built prior to 1951, if any dwelling has no room at least ten (10) feet by twelve (12) feet in size, two (2) persons will be allowed to sleep in the largest room therein so long as it is nine (9) feet in size at least.
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Jim D.
Investor · United States · Member since 2015 · 415 posts · 487 votes
9y
In my state, landlords who own three or less properties are for some reason allowed to discriminate on almost every category (except for race and a couple others). When I owned just a few properties I was able to legally discriminate on family status. Check your local laws and see if you have something similar there and if it applies in your case.
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Kimberly H.
Residential Real Estate Broker · Chicago Suburbs, IL · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 594 votes
9y
In my rental license cities, only bedrooms can be used as bedrooms.
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Brandon Norlund
Bountiful, UT · Member since 2017 · 17 posts · 11 votes
9y
Originally posted by @Johann Jells:

Originally posted by @Brandon Norlund:
If it is legally defined as a 2 bedroom unit, they cannot use the living room as a third bedroom.
Do you think that's actually enforceable? When I bought the place there was a couple and their two adult sons living there using it as a three-bedroom. It never occurred to me I could have evicted them based on over occupancy.
It really depends on the state laws where you are. I have lived in several states where that would be enforceable. Of course, it is hard to tell how many people are living in a place vs the # of bedrooms, so it probably only gets enforced if someone like a landlord or neighbor complains about it.
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Billy Smith
Shawnee Mission, KS · Member since 2016 · 719 posts · 313 votes
9y
I did not read all the answers,my city has a code on how many people related and non -related can live in single family homes. I have used it more then once to deny few folks .
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Thomas S.
Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
9y
Fair housing is the infamous Boogie Man. It is very difficult and laborious for someone to lodge a complaint, Fair Housing rarely goes after small landlords and the likely hood of ever hearing anything back from a rejected applicant is practically zero if you manage your business properly. They threaten but rarely follow through.
Proof of discrimination requires a high standard that is extremely difficult to prove which is why Fair Housing rarely peruses these types of cases.
Operate your business as you see fit, just be smart about it, never give any applicant a reasons for rejection that would justify a complaint.
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Johann Jells
OP
Rental Property Investor · Jersey City, NJ · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 876 votes
9y
Yup. It took me awhile to learn to keep my mouth shut, like not telling someone they're the first to see the apartment. FWIW it looks like the family at issue has gone away. A former roommate of the second-floor tenant is interested in this third-floor apartment, always a good thing to have people in a small building being friends.
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Colleen F.Pro Member
Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
9y
You received good advice to upfront set an occupancy limit, it would have save you thier call. Given the size of the bedrooms 2 people for the apartment is reasonable. I have an 80 square foot bedroom in a rental and upfront share this because some people don't get that big bedrooms aren't standard.
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Johann Jells
OP
Rental Property Investor · Jersey City, NJ · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 876 votes
9y
So I showed it to the former roommate of #2 and his girlfriend today, and of course another pitfall opens. They don't have the greatest credit and have less than 2 years at their jobs, but plenty of income, probably at least 60-70 x rent. I like them, but renting to them opens me up for a different potential standards suit if someone knew and I had denied them for similar grounds. I've had very good luck following my nose in when to rent to people with subpar specs, and will probably rent to them after I get their application package and run credit.
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