Wear and tear vs tenant damage

Amie D. · 2018-03-08T20:45:52-08:00

Fiver-year SFR tenants moved out. Refused showings, which made me suspect they had something to hide (addressed in a previous post.)Property managers now want to charge me $1886 to repaint the interior of the 764 sq foot house with one coat of paint. The house was professionally painted with a high-quality antique white paint before these tenants moved in. Now however, the walls have white wall patch all over from the tenants attempting to patch holes that they made. The property managers said they wouldn’t charge the tenants for this because they said the house would need to be repainted anyway. HOWEVER, upon reviewing the photos, I noticed the tenants also - without approval - painted much of the house various colors (blue, orange, etc).The property managers seem to ignore the fact that the tenant had broken the lease by refusing showings, and now that they had painted the property without permission. The tenants had asked to paint and were informed in writing they could not. The property managers also want to charge $1200 to lightly sand and apply two coats of poly to the about 250 sq ft of hardwood floors. The floors have black stains on them as well as water stains. They had been freshly restored/refinished with no stains before the tenants moved in. I get there is maintenance that needs to be done when a tenant moves out; but it seems like this property manager cares little for what the tenant actually did?!? Or would you just let it go In the name of “normal maintenance”? Thanks!

Amie D.

OP

SFR Investor · South Bend, IN · Member since 2013 · 342 posts · 56 votes

8y

Originally posted by @Cara Lonsdale:

@Amie D. by now you've received good advice to find a new PM.

However, I did want to focus in on something that @Joe Splitrock said about life span of items. This is key for you to know as a landlord so that you can avoid costly court challenges.

If the tenant was there 5 + years, it is expected that the walls would need to be painted, so they can't be charged for that regardless of the repainting without permission. HOWEVER, the patches could be charged as that is considered damage.

Similarly, if there was carpet (for example), and it was all stained when they moved out, you wouldn't be able to charge them as carpet has a 4 year shelf life, and is expected to be changed.

The hardwoods are a different story as the water damage should go back to the Tenant. The recoating or refinishing would probably be your responsibility as it would be considered normal maintenance for the floors.

So, there are give and takes associated with each item. You need a good PM that knows the difference, and can allocate expense accordingly.

Best of luck to you!

Thanks - I was already interviewing and preparing to hire a new PM before I posted lol.

As I mentioned before I’m really just going to let the pm charge them for the cleaning and debris removal and get bids on the rest as I need to move on. Regardless of the situation they’ve know the tenants were going to move out since January and the place is still unrented and now sitting vacant and dirty.

The new PM also includes inspection and pictures every six months as part of their services and had I had this, the renter painted walls, holes, and stained floors would have been caught sooner and not an issue now. I’m just moving on.

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Amie D.

OP

SFR Investor · South Bend, IN · Member since 2013 · 342 posts · 56 votes

8y

Originally posted by @Jimmy Dudley:

Your PM is the problem. Find a new one and take the hit. Don't use premium paints on rentals either, a nice light color will make your turnovers much easier.

Thanks. That’s what I was planning to do. I used premium paint as I was living there at the time and not planning to move but then life happened.

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Michael Kalis

Investor · Plymouth, MI · Member since 2016 · 48 posts · 70 votes

8y

My name it Mike Kalis and I have interests in and manage about 3,000 homes and started from my basement. During that time I have seen issues with wear and tear come up and I certainly don't have the final answer, as we have a few of these coming up this month as we speak, but I thought I would share some experiences I've had;

Paint / flooring / cleaning - What should paint look like 5 years later? What is reasonable for flooring to look like 5 years after the fact? Generally, the tenant thinks they cared a ton and it's great. Generally, the owner thinks it was the cleanest home on the planet prior to the tenant wrecking it, so what gives?

Getting pictures up front helps. Getting a move in checklist upfront helps. Having a team document the condition helps... but still, people will disagree. It took me many years until I learned THE SECRET!!

The Secret - We side with the owner 99.9% of the time now. Because the owner takes away the home if we don't. So even if we disagree, we will always withhold the security deposit and give to the owner.

The Secret #2 - Most property managers don't understand secret #1.

The Secret #3 - By withholding the security deposit, we are able to charge more for repairs because it isn't your money. The tenant is repainting and recarpeting your home for you.

Sooooo... why don't most property managers understand the secret? Because the tenant is louder, has less money, writes awful reviews more often and threatens crazy stuff. This gets into most property manager's heads and they forget who hired them, the owner.

So when you hire a property manager, you need to interview them on how tough they are. Ask these questions;

1) How many times have you gone to court to evict a tenant, won and then collected all the funds owed through garnishments payroll, taxes, assets? How many times didn't you collect?

2) How many tenants's have asked to have a restraining order placed on you due to your diligence in collecting? (hehe... yeah... I got a pile of those... street cred for being out of Detroit)

3) How many tenants have gone to court and beaten you over security deposits? (Never)

4) How many times have you settled with a tenant? (the answer should be an unequivocal ZERO!)

If a manager is not on your side, why hire them? We explain to tenants that we do not represent them. If they want a Realtor or legal guy, go get one... we represent the owner, they pay us.

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Federico Gutierrez

Realtor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 857 votes

8y

Tenants should be charged for the walls that were painted without any written approval from you or the property management company. As per directions of the lease

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Ned J.Pro Member

Investor · Manteca, CA · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes

8y

In my experience, in a court of law, the judge is going to laugh and side with the tenant about paying for paint if the paint is 5+ years old.....even if they painted it a color you didn't approve. If its been 5+ years since paint, you were going to have to repaint in anyway....so it makes no difference about what color it is right now. Now granted, the color may be harder to cover and may take more time and cost, but the judge wont let you charge the whole cost to the tenant...a portion at best.

Same with holes in the walls....if we are talking nails, tacks, etc and the tenant has been there a few years, that's considered reasonable....to expect nothing is not reasonable........ if the tenant attempted to FIX the issue without your approval and made it worse, then you can ding them for the extra work.

There is a big difference on what you emotionally THINK/FEEL you should be able to hold the tenant liable for and what will actually hold up if they take you to court.

My eviction lawyer often tells his clients to go ahead and try and charge for that stuff.......many tenants wont put up a big enough fight to take it to court....but if they do, you will lose so be prepared to pay it out

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Amie D.

OP

SFR Investor · South Bend, IN · Member since 2013 · 342 posts · 56 votes

8y

Originally posted by @Ned J.:

In my experience, in a court of law, the judge is going to laugh and side with the tenant about paying for paint if the paint is 5+ years old.....even if they painted it a color you didn't approve. If its been 5+ years since paint, you were going to have to repaint in anyway....so it makes no difference about what color it is right now. Now granted, the color may be harder to cover and may take more time and cost, but the judge wont let you charge the whole cost to the tenant...a portion at best.

Same with holes in the walls....if we are talking nails, tacks, etc and the tenant has been there a few years, that's considered reasonable....to expect nothing is not reasonable........ if the tenant attempted to FIX the issue without your approval and made it worse, then you can ding them for the extra work.

There is a big difference on what you emotionally THINK/FEEL you should be able to hold the tenant liable for and what will actually hold up if they take you to court.

My eviction lawyer often tells his clients to go ahead and try and charge for that stuff.......many tenants wont put up a big enough fight to take it to court....but if they do, you will lose so be prepared to pay it out

Doesn't really matter as I already said I am just having the previous PM clean it up and I'm just moving on. The new PM includes inspections each 6 mos so not an issue any longer.

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Amie D.

OP

SFR Investor · South Bend, IN · Member since 2013 · 342 posts · 56 votes

8y

Originally posted by @Federico Gutierrez:

Tenants should be charged for the walls that were painted without any written approval from you or the property management company. As per directions of the lease

Yes, it is written explicitly in the lease that they cannot paint as well as they had asked to paint the dark colors and were told no. Getting a new PM, he does inspections each six months so not an issue in the future. I'd also reported that the neighbor told me that they were keeping an extra pet without approval nor paying for it and again the PM did nothing. Just done.

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Amie D.

OP

SFR Investor · South Bend, IN · Member since 2013 · 342 posts · 56 votes

8y

Originally posted by @Michael Kalis: