Hey Everybody, after finding a potential fix and flip, I noticed mold and asbestos. That got me thinking about lead based paint. This is a house build in 1930 in Garden City, MI. What are the chances this house is covered in lead based paint? Should I be getting any property built before 1978 tested for lead? I feel like this is something not talked about that much, but something that terrifies me as either a fix and flipper or landlord! Any body have an input on this subject? Thanks for your time!

Because lead based paint was such a big deal for several decades, most of it has been removed.  However if you have an old house with multiple layers of paint peeling, then you should check it before sanding it and possibly getting lead all over.  If its not peeling, its not a problem.

@Noah Barba You can always get an inspection, but the less you know can sometimes be better. I would disagree with @Lynnette E. a majority of homes that had lead paint in 1978 still have lead paint. There are probably less in the midwest than the east coast

I just operate under the assumption everything built prior to 1978 has lead paint.  Some parts of the country thats not a big deal at all, and other parts of the country it is a big deal.

@Noah Barba Built in 1930, I *promise* you, it had lead paint at some point. 

Lead paint is nothing to mess with.  You should have it inspected as part of your due diligence, and remediate it if you're renting to a family with kids 6 or under.  It's state law here in MA and it's also the right thing to do.

If you don't and a child ends up with actual brain damage because they were munching on a lead-painted windowsill when they were teething, you'll not only have to pay an unspeakable amount in damages, you'll have to live with the knowledge that you had a hand in screwing up their entire life.

Originally posted by @Charlie MacPherson :

@Noah Barba Built in 1930, I *promise* you, it had lead paint at some point. 

Lead paint is nothing to mess with.  You should have it inspected as part of your due diligence, and remediate it if you're renting to a family with kids 6 or under.  It's state law here in MA and it's also the right thing to do.

If you don't and a child ends up with actual brain damage because they were munching on a lead-painted windowsill when they were teething, you'll not only have to pay an unspeakable amount in damages, you'll have to live with the knowledge that you had a hand in screwing up their entire life.

 Thanks. All responses were helpful but this was probably what I was looking for. I’m totally fine with pricing in remediation into the offer. Any chance you or another has a recommendation on encapsulation versus actual removal? I’m currently looking at a total rehab, and since I know walls will be sanded, drilled through and maybe even moved, should i just go for total abatement?

Yes, anything built before 1978 should be tested for lead. 

Chill out . all my buildings probably had lead at one time or another . Around here it’s not a big deal it is just assumed and you simply have tenants sign a disclosure about it that it hasn’t been tested but may contain lead . If you have a lot of chipped paint around the unit scrape it off and repaint it is all . No sense in tearing the place apart or paying big money to fix it .

Originally posted by @Noah Barba :

Hey Everybody, after finding a potential fix and flip, I noticed mold and asbestos. That got me thinking about lead based paint. This is a house build in 1930 in Garden City, MI. What are the chances this house is covered in lead based paint? Should I be getting any property built before 1978 tested for lead? I feel like this is something not talked about that much, but something that terrifies me as either a fix and flipper or landlord! Any body have an input on this subject? Thanks for your time!

Everything I have bought has had lead paint in it. My painter deals with it. Do you have a painter that you use? Discuss it with him and move forward.  I personally love to see mold, asbestos, and lead paint. It scares the pants off the competition.  

 

@Dennis M. @Preston Quinn This is a bad idea. If for some reason someone complains or the EPA hears of this the fine is $20,000 for disturbing lead paint with out lead certification. I am EPA lead certified renovator with a lead certified firm. You can’t technically test for lead paint with out a certification but if you wanted to know if it was lead paint you would want to find an already chipping area and use a 3M lead test(available at most box stores homedepot/Lowe’s). Just make sure the packaging says EPA approved test kit. Obviously you can do what you choose but if you do get fined I hope you can take the 20k hit and also know how much harm you can do to yourself, your children and or tenants/children if it’s not done properly and take proper precautions. 

@Noah Barba There is a lot of misunderstanding regarding lead-based paint. I was EPA certified, but I did not renew my certification so some things may have changed in the past couple years. I will include a link to the EPA website, but even they are not always clear.

Any home built 1978 or prior should be checked. You do not have to remove the lead-based paint if it's found. The issue is disturbing it. If there are any flaking areas like trim or doors, that's a problem. If you are doing any renovating that will disturb it like new windows, remove walls, replacing siding, etc. there is a minimum square footage that would affect what you're doing. If you're just painting, you can use primer over the wood and not sand. The same with the walls. Also, if it's a 1 bedroom you don't have to even check. 

You mentioned that the walls would be moved, so that could be a problem. This isn't like mold where the whole house has to be remediated, it just needs to be contained. I'm not sure how you could plug in a cost to do this unless you already knew how much area you were dealing with. The person holding the certification will need to be present the entire time the crews are working on it and they will most likely have there own crews. If you're removing a wall and installing a couple of windows, for example, they would do that.

There are pamphlets issued by the EPA you will need to give a tenant and if work is performed, you would need to have documentation posted on-site to show it was tested. I have done work in hundreds of house and even renovated homes for the government and never been checked or I don't know of anyone who has been checked. They would always send newsletters showing how they were fining contractors for 30-40K for violations, so they are serious. We don't have a lot of old houses where I'm located so that could explain it.

So...personally if it were me if I were looking at a house built in the 30's I would include in the contract a provision that would allow you to back out if it was found during inspections. At least if I was doing an extensive rehab. You can have someone test for it or you can get test kits and do it if you suspect a problem.   

https://www.epa.gov/lead/lead-renovation-repair-and-painting-program-rules

My county has a program that will cover 100% of the cost of remediation for a home owner and 75% of the cost for a landlord (with a 50% grant and 50% 5 year forgivable loan) if a child under 6 is living in the unit, but they have to move while remediation work is being completed.

Originally posted by @Matt Vesper :

@Dennis M. @Preston Quinn This is a bad idea. If for some reason someone complains or the EPA hears of this the fine is $20,000 for disturbing lead paint with out lead certification. I am EPA lead certified renovator with a lead certified firm. You can’t technically test for lead paint with out a certification but if you wanted to know if it was lead paint you would want to find an already chipping area and use a 3M lead test(available at most box stores homedepot/Lowe’s). Just make sure the packaging says EPA approved test kit. Obviously you can do what you choose but if you do get fined I hope you can take the 20k hit and also know how much harm you can do to yourself, your children and or tenants/children if it’s not done properly and take proper precautions. 

You don’t think that maybe you are just slightly a tiny bit biased because you benefit monetarily from lead ?  If I had my choice there would be no EPA ....but that is a topic for another day . 

 

In Michigan it's no big deal. As a landlord I have them sign a disclosure. Unless you remove everything that has paint on it it will have lead paint. If you are selling it your realtor will have you sign a disclosure. No one can sue you over it if you didn't put it there. It's grandfathered in. Other than anyone can sue you for anything. I'm flipping one right now and I am NOT removing things with paint on them just because it has paint on it.

@Noah Barba if you follow this thinking, you’ll never buy an older affordable home. Find a real handyman and they’ll take care of you no problem. Wear a mask all the time if you repair walls.

@Noah Barba The type of abatement the abatement contractor does (removal,encapsulation,covering) will all have an affect on the price. As long as it's compliant I would go with whatever less expensive option gets you there. If you're already ripping out walls, however, doing lead abatement may be easy for your carpenter/contractor to do if they are certified.

Originally posted by @Dennis M. :

Originally posted by @Matt Vesper:

@Dennis M. @Preston Quinn This is a bad idea. If for some reason someone complains or the EPA hears of this the fine is $20,000 for disturbing lead paint with out lead certification. I am EPA lead certified renovator with a lead certified firm. You can’t technically test for lead paint with out a certification but if you wanted to know if it was lead paint you would want to find an already chipping area and use a 3M lead test(available at most box stores homedepot/Lowe’s). Just make sure the packaging says EPA approved test kit. Obviously you can do what you choose but if you do get fined I hope you can take the 20k hit and also know how much harm you can do to yourself, your children and or tenants/children if it’s not done properly and take proper precautions. 

You don’t think that maybe you are just slightly a tiny bit biased because you benefit monetarily from lead ?  If I had my choice there would be no EPA ....but that is a topic for another day . 

 Like I said, you can do what you want. But I strongly recommend if your sanding or tearing apart walls with lead paint you change your cloths before going home and your child hugs you and has problems for the rest of his/her life. 

 

Hey Guys, I don't know about you, as I am in the Baltimore area and we take lead paint seriously here. The laws have changed drastically over the past several years, and in Baltimore City especially, it is big deal. A major investor and landlord was sued and his LLC was penetrated so he became personally liable. You can look up, Member of LLC May Be Personally Liable For Lead-Paint Injuries (Md., March 22, 2010). The Court of Appeals of Maryland held that a member of a limited liability company could be personally liable for lead paint related injuries allegedly suffered by children. Here is another one from 2014, Jury awards $2.1 million in lead paint suit in Baltimore. So a company is no longer a shield.

As a landlord, I started doing lead safe (encapsulating lead) certifications rather than lead free (removal of lead) due to the costs and now wish I would have spent the extra money. I will only do lead free rentals from now on. Around here, mostly all properties before the 1950s have lead, and after the 1950s they either have some lead, or after 1955 there often is no lead.  Of course this is not absolute. There are lead notices that must be provided to tenants, and they must sign, though that does not remove the liability. If you do the test and have any knowledge of lead based paint, it must be provided to any buyer.

Also, you don't want to do the testing yourself, hire a qualified licensed lead inspector.  Your time and money is best spent as an investor, and hire the right people for the skilled work.  If the property was built in the 1930's there is a high likelihood of lead, and if you are doing a total rehab, you will likely be removing the lead though it may definitely make sense to do a lead inspection and remove all the lead as long as you are prepare to do so. On a full gut,should not cost be much extra cost.  Here is Baltimore, contractors are supposed to be licensed and lead certified to take precautions for demolition to control and remediate the lead dust. I am very cautious when it comes to this stuff and highly advise you to do the same, especially for rentals!

I'm in Baltimore, and I will schedule an XRF lead test as soon as the house is under contract. Once I have the results I can add any lead remediation/encapsulation into the budget. 

@Dennis M.

I test for mold with a taste test. If it burns its bad. The lead guys arent so bad. The mold guys are something else though. Average 500 per sheet of drywall. Why my insurances went up 20% this year.

@Noah Barba hey Noah, it most likely has lead paint. Don’t let that scare you, and I wouldn’t waste money on an abatement as it will probably price you right out of the house. Encapsulation works just fine, in fact I’d bet it’s already been encapsulated. If not you can’t just paint it yourself as the owner you’re usually given a pass as long as your not lining the neighborhood children up for free lead paint chip snacks.

I don't test for lead. It's pretty safe to assume an older house has lead based paint as most paint contained lead back in the day. So if the house has any painted surfaces those probably contain lead. Painting over previously painted surfaces covers the lead so it shouldn't be an issue. Apparently regional differences in the level of concern over this issue may impact repair costs. If someone doesn't want to deal with the lead paint issues, buy newer properties.

Loving these responses. However, I’m going to be doing almost all cosmetic work as I work in renovations and have decided that to be my current competitive edge. That being said, what if I need to drill through walls or remove portions of drywall. Should I just throw on a certified respirator and seal off the room? How careful do I need to be when sanding, patching and working with lead paint? 

Believe me, I'm all for hands-on and handling the cosmetic work (since you doing those renovations is your competitive edge) but as someone who has lost family (grandfather) to cancer caused by asbestos, I'm going to advise that you proceed with some serious caution; do the appropriate testing. Again, as mentioned above, disturbing the lead-based paint is where a lot of the technical issues come into play. I'd recommend spending the money on going lead-free (removal of lead) and play it safe. Best of luck! 

Can anyone recommend a lead encapsulation service in Baltimore. I have a multifamily under contract right now and I need to get this property capped. @Michael Krupp @Tim Youse