401k vs Rental Property...should he cash in the 401k???

401k vs Rental Property...should he cash in the 401k???

Investor · Central Virginia Area, VA · Member since 2012 · 80 posts · 28 votes

A friend at my "day job" asked me a question this week regarding cashing in his 401k to fund purchasing more rental properties, when he learned that I was in the rental property business. He's a mid-forties corporate type with a couple of duplexes and four SFH's. He was considering cashing in his 401k, taking the Fed tax hit of 10% and the immediate income tax hit on the early distribution. He indicated he had over a half a million dollars in his 401k. He recognized he would net only approximately $300k after taxes and penalty. His plan was to buy rentals and figured he could more than make up the penalty and out perform the lost compounded interest of the 401k. His reasoning was to achieve early retirement. The 401k would not allow him access to income until 59 1/2 yrs old (not withstanding a 72t option). He was looking to leave the corporate world in his early 50's using the residual income from his rentals. His further rationale was fear of a potential downturn in the stock market given the weak economy, and his poor average returns in the stock market over the past decade. His rental experience led him to believe he could make 10% to 15% on rental investments verses his conservative estimates of 5-6% returns in the stock market for the same period. He seems to be completely averse to the stock market based on his recent losses. This guy has owned rentals for over ten years, so he has a pretty good sense for the local rental business. He has reserve funds of six months for his rentals, so he has a pretty solid foundation financially.

I am curious what the opinions are for this type of move. Is he committing financial suicide or making a smart financial decision? I found his logic persuasive myself, but it would concern me to have so many eggs in one basket when conventional wisdom tells us to have financial diversification. I'm hesitant to provide financial advice on this one, so I suggested posting the discussion on BP in hopes of getting a variety of opinions to help him in his decision. I know this is limited information to do a full analysis on his specific situation, but hoping to generate some useful discussion points to share with him...

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Accountant, Enrolled Agent · Grayslake, IL · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
14y

Thom H.,

I have a better recommendation for him. He should roll it over to a SELF-DIRECTED ROTH IRA; The IRA can purchased the properties. He can then wait 5 years; keep the earnings in the IRA and whenever he wants after that 5 year mark he can pull out the principal. This way he can invest; however, still keep the income deferred. He can do even better by keeping it in the roth IRA so he won't pay taxes on the earnings nor will he when he later withdraws it.

He will pay tax at the ordinary rate with no penalty. He can then invest it using the ROTH SDIRA to avoid the 10% penalty. He will then be able to invest and keep the properties in the IRA or distribute the properties. He can also opt to take the earnings until he hits his principal in the IRA and wait to receive the rest at retirement. There are plenty of options at that point. It will also give him the option to retain the deferred/no income tax state.

He can also opt to just remove it before the 5 year holding period and pay the 10% at some point. Some people prefer to do this so that they can break up the amount being paid out.

-Steven the Tax Guy

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  • Accountant, Enrolled Agent · Grayslake, IL · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    14y

    Thom H.,

    I have a better recommendation for him. He should roll it over to a SELF-DIRECTED ROTH IRA; The IRA can purchased the properties. He can then wait 5 years; keep the earnings in the IRA and whenever he wants after that 5 year mark he can pull out the principal. This way he can invest; however, still keep the income deferred. He can do even better by keeping it in the roth IRA so he won't pay taxes on the earnings nor will he when he later withdraws it.

    He will pay tax at the ordinary rate with no penalty. He can then invest it using the ROTH SDIRA to avoid the 10% penalty. He will then be able to invest and keep the properties in the IRA or distribute the properties. He can also opt to take the earnings until he hits his principal in the IRA and wait to receive the rest at retirement. There are plenty of options at that point. It will also give him the option to retain the deferred/no income tax state.

    He can also opt to just remove it before the 5 year holding period and pay the 10% at some point. Some people prefer to do this so that they can break up the amount being paid out.

    -Steven the Tax Guy

  • Apopka, FL · Member since 2012 · 207 posts · 120 votes
    14y

    Really bad idea.

    He's going to get hit with the 10% penalty + his tax rate. So if he's in the 25% tax bracket he'll lose 35% of his investment before he starts. Not a good start.

    A better path if he wants to buy a house is to stop putting money in his 401K and save for a down payment. If he has decent credit it shouldn't take too long. This would also allow him to try being a landlord for a few years to see if its for him. Lots of people just aren't cut out for landlording life. And it's better to learn that before running through your retirement savings.

  • Accountant, Enrolled Agent · Grayslake, IL · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    14y

    Michael B.,

    I almost missed it too but he said: "regarding cashing in his 401k to fund purchasing more rental properties, " and "He's a mid-forties corporate type with a couple of duplexes and four SFH's."

    The best bet is to start rolling the 401k over into roth accounts to really let it grow.

    -Steven the Tax Guy

  • Investor · Central Virginia Area, VA · Member since 2012 · 80 posts · 28 votes
    14y

    Steven, Thanks. We discussed this option, but he also plans to continue his current employment situation for another five years or so, and I don't think the company 401k has an option to roll into a self directed Roth (I think the only way he can do this is to leave the company earlier than planned.)

  • Accountant, Enrolled Agent · Grayslake, IL · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    14y

    Thom H.,

    He doesn't need their permission if they allow him to make any withdrawals. He can make withdrawal after withdrawal and simply deposit the check into the ROTH account. This will essentially do the same thing.

    -Steven the Tax Guy

  • Investor · Central Virginia Area, VA · Member since 2012 · 80 posts · 28 votes
    14y

    Thanks Steven. I will let him know to discuss further with the 401k administrator. Sounds like a very viable option. Great information. Much appreciated.

  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    14y

    You always have to take what someone tells you with a grain of salt.

    Your friend being told they can't do this or that is sometimes because what they have their money in is making someone else a bunch of fees and not necessarily the best use of their money.

    We did a course on IRA investing in real estate.The actual concept has been around for decades and decades.These plan providers do not push it because there is little to any money in fees for them compared to the other stuff they are selling.This is why many do not offer such an option.

    That is at least what they were explaining to us in the course years ago.

  • Investor · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 450 votes
    14y

    He has 6 properties right now. Are they profitable? Why not leverage up to 10 properties and leave the 401K alone for now as a healthy reserve and then decide whether or not to go whole hog?

  • Real Estate Investor · chicago, IL · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 231 votes
    14y

    @ Brian Hoyt - what an awesome idea!

    also, you can take a 401k loan out up to $50k. he can borrow & pay it back.

  • Real Estate Investor · chicago, IL · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 231 votes
    14y

    1 thing to note w/ a self-directed IRA is you cannot "self deal" meaning you cannot do any sweat equity in your property. you have to hire out all the work.

  • Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2009 · 718 posts · 913 votes
    14y

    There are number of blog posts by Jeff Brown on this topic and his bottom line is, as I recall, to take the hit and get the money out. (I don't think he addressed Steven Hamilton II's suggestion of rolling it over, which seems pretty smart.) Either way, having read Jeff Brown's stuff on this and run my own numbers, I cannot imagine a scenario where it makes sense to simply leave your money in a 401k for the next 20 years.

  • Rental Property Investor · Charlotte NC Fort Mill SC Lake Wylie SC, SC · Member since 2009 · 174 posts · 103 votes
    14y

    We are in a similar boat, although my husband is 58, and I'm 42. There is no way his current 401K balance is going to sustain us when he retires. He started it way too late in life, for valid reasons that i won't bore you with.

    Several years ago, when the stock market was doing well, I might add, the folks who manage his 401K had a "check-up" meeting with hubby. They showed him all the fabulous things he could do with his 401K and how much he could make. When they were done, he handed them spreadsheets outlining the returns we're making from the real estate investment business (mostly rentals, some flips) that I run. After a few minutes, they looked at my husband and told him to give all the money to me because I was making at least twice what they could ever offer him with their products.

    At the time, we did not need to pull the 401K. Now that cash is harder and harder to come by, we've decided to pull all of it out when he turns 59-1/2, thereby avoiding such a loss as was mentioned in previous posts.

    I've looked at Roth IRAs, and I just don't think they're a good fit for me. I've never been a big fan of indefinite deferment--just letting my descendents pay the taxes when I die is not a good idea to me. First of all, I cannot afford to be tied down to so many rules and regulations that surround such investment accounts, including not being able to do any work yourself (I do very little myself, but still...). Then you can only pull out the principal? What's the point? I do this to make money. When I'm done with an investment, I want the the option to do whatever I want with the money I've made. Usually, we just turn around and reinvest it (the initial investment AND the profit) into the next properties. But sometimes I want to skim a little off the top for some project on my own house or something else. I want to enjoy SOME of the fruits of my labor now--just a little bit. These other investment options don't give me the freedom I need.

    For the same reason, I am not at all interested in 1039 exchanges.

    I'm sure I'm missing some important information, as I am far from an expert in things like Roth IRAs and such. I promise, if someone makes the case that they are in fact a viable and healthy option in my situation, I'll jump on the wagon ASAP.

    In the meantime, I can't wait to get my hands on that 401K money next year. I can do some serious investing with that. In fact, we've already calculated that, with the # of rentals I can buy with that money, together with the properties we already have, the rents from all of those properties will replace my husband's income 125%. Everything else is cream. He'll be able to retire before he is 60.

    That's the plan.

  • Bismarck, ND · Member since 2011 · 142 posts · 16 votes
    14y

    I really find this topic interesting and I think about it every time I read an article telling us that we will never be able to retire.

    Yes, I am maxing out my company sponsored & matched roth 401k and seperate individual Roth IRA, but Im also scraping together as much as I can to get into as many good rental properties as I can now.

    The way I see it, I would rather shell out 5, $30k down payments for single family houses and collect $8,500.00/mo in rent rather than build up my 401k to $1MM and get maybe half of that if you are only taking out interest.

    The difference in out of pocket outlay for the different routes is absolutely staggering and I can't understand why more people aren't going this route.

    Of course diversification is important and its hard to argue with a company match so I will continue down that path, but for a 26 year old, Im much more eager to purchase even 5-10 single family homes and pay them off over the next twenty years to enjoy an early retirement. One that I couldn't dream if it was only to be funded by my 401k.

    The snowball effect that can be created from rental real estate, if you do it correctly, dwarfs everything else by a wide margin.

    Im glad more people are considering it because I was beginning to think I was missing something. Its too obvious to me.

    I would greatly hesistate to take the tax and penalty hit. I would just leave that amount and withdraw it when he can and in the mean time take the funds he would have been contributing to account in excess of gaining the company match and put it towards real estate. Sounds like he already has a great head start, it shouldn't take a whole lot more for him to finish it off. It wouldn't take a hail mary like cashing in his 401k.

  • Accountant, Enrolled Agent · Grayslake, IL · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    14y

    Terri Pour-Rastegar,

    There is a strategy that will work in your situation that I would like to explain briefly here.

    Similar to what I said up higher is:

    Your husband can roll some of the money from his 401k into a Roth account to pay regular tax on some now. He can then withdraw it at age 59 1/2 penalty free from the Roth account. The rules on Roth withdrawals state that the rollover proceeds must be held for 5 years OR until the owner reaches 59.5.

    This allows him to pay some tax now and some later. He will in essence split the tax burden between multiple years. He also can do this over an even longer period of time. You don't want to push yourself up into too high of a bracket.

    -Steven the Tax Guy

    Your guide to IRS laws, rules and regulations.

  • Rental Property Investor · Charlotte NC Fort Mill SC Lake Wylie SC, SC · Member since 2009 · 174 posts · 103 votes
    14y

    Steven Hamilton II,

    Ahah! Someone with a recommendation that makes sense! I will absolutely look into this. I'll send this info to my hubby right now so that we can start getting this thing set up. Thanks!!!!

  • Investor · Central Virginia Area, VA · Member since 2012 · 80 posts · 28 votes
    14y

    Wow! Go to the day-job for one day, and look what happens! Great posts folks! Thanks for all the input. I love this web-site! So many knowledgeable people willing to help! It's awesome.

    John C.- thanks for the note on Jeff Brown's articles. Jeff's articles are actually what got my friend and me talking about this option. Small world! I plan to read more of Jeff's articles before I make a decision on my 401k future. However, my friend likes Steve's suggestion for his particular situation.

    Steve, I'm happy to say, my friend spoke with the plan administrator 20 minutes after I told him about our discussion and found he can pull it out with a few stipulations. But bottom line it is possible. Now he's got me looking into it too! Great suggestion. Thank you. He loved your suggestion.

    Joel O.- You were so right! My friend said it took some pulling to get the information about withdrawals from the plan administrator. He said it was obvious the admin did not like the idea and seemed more concerned about losing the fees than the best interest of my friends retirement well being.

    Scott W. - Thanks for the "self deal" note. Good point to be aware of on the self directed IRA option.

    Michael, Brian, Zachery - all great comments. Thank you.

    Terri- best of luck to you and your hubby! Thanks for commenting. Always great to hear others are making it happen. Good for you guys! Best of luck.

  • Real Estate Investor · The Woodlands, TX · Member since 2012 · 20 posts · 5 votes
    14y

    I have been considering this as well. One argument that I always hear is pulling it out early wil cost you your tax rate plus 10% or 35% so don't do it. The way I see it is that you' have to pay taxes on it at some point because you haven't paid any yet. The reality is that the only penalty you really pay is the 10%. One might say you could be in a lower tax bracket at retirement and your taxes will be less but the hell with that - I don't want to be making less money or be poorer later on. What kind of incentive is that???

  • Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2009 · 718 posts · 913 votes
    14y

    Chuck C. That is a great point and how I've kind of always perceived it. The real "hit" is only the 10% penalty because if we're being totally honest, who knows what marginal tax bracket we'll be in when we retire.

  • SFR Investor · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2009 · 484 posts · 181 votes
    14y
    Originally posted by John Chapman:
    Chuck C. That is a great point and how I've kind of always perceived it. The real "hit" is only the 10% penalty because if we're being totally honest, who knows what marginal tax bracket we'll be in when we retire.

    And who really believes the government will keep their mitts off your Ira/401k in the future?

    There's billions of dollars there, and that's got to be tempting for the politicians.

  • Investor · Central Virginia Area, VA · Member since 2012 · 80 posts · 28 votes
    14y

    All good points, and I agree on the tax rate point, but it's actually the 10% penalty AND the lost compounding of the taxes paid early.

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    14y
    Originally posted by Thom H.:
    ... I'm happy to say, my friend spoke with the plan administrator 20 minutes after I told him about our discussion and found he can pull it out with a few stipulations. But bottom line it is possible. ...

    There will probably be vesting issues with any employer matching contributions. And might even be restrictions on touching the employer matching portion.

  • Real Estate Investor · Whittier, CA · Member since 2012 · 92 posts · 19 votes
    14y

    Something no one has mentioned, if purchased correctly you would try to purchase these rental properties at 70% of market value. These properties do exist, but for arguments sake lets say 80% of market value. Here are some numbers. Lets take a rental property that has a value of $700,000 and you can buy it at 80% of its value.
    That would be $560,000. To purchase this property you would need 30% down payment, that would be $168,000. If you take 168,000 out of your IRA and you have to pay 35% that would be $58,000.

    So to recap, you purchased the property $140,000 below mkt value and you paid $58,800 in penalties for the privilige. You are still up $81,200 in equity plus all the income and appreciation you will ever make on the deal.

    Pull the money out!!! But only when you have found the ideal property. Remember these properties are out there.

  • Investor · Central Virginia Area, VA · Member since 2012 · 80 posts · 28 votes
    14y

    Steve, Excellent point for others. In his case, he has been with the company 12 yrs, so he's fully vested on both his contributions and company match. No restrictions, but thanks for the reminder. It's a great point that others should be aware of before jumping.

  • Accountant, Enrolled Agent · Grayslake, IL · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    14y

    Luis Castillo,

    You calculated that incorrectly.

    I"ll take your 560,000 purchase price. 30% is 168,000. If you are in the 28% bracket, you will be looking at some or all of the income pushed into the 33% Plus the 10% penalty which is 72,240 just to pay the taxes. This means you would actually need approximately 294,737 in order to be able to pay this amount. This is why you should try to move it over slowly before taking a massive plunge such as this.

    Do not forget that some will be taxed at higher rates PLUS the 10% penalty.

    So theoretically you are actually about break even at FMV.

    -Steven the Tax Guy

    The numbers guy

  • Real Estate Investor · Whittier, CA · Member since 2012 · 92 posts · 19 votes
    14y

    Thanks for clarifying that Steve, obviously that' why you're the tax guy. But if I am right about finding a property at 80% of it's present value and you are right about breaking even, then it's not costing this person anything to cash out, right?

    But I do understand that if you take it in pieces, it is cheaper for you.

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