Do You Know ALL the Expenses Associated with a House Flip?

Do You Know ALL the Expenses Associated with a House Flip?

Joshua D.Pro Member
BiggerPockets Founder · HI · Member since 2008 · 16k+ posts · 5k+ votes

One of our Bloggers, Justin Pierce, wrote a fantastic article that took an in depth look at all of the costs associated with a house flip.

This is a MUST read for any newbie rehabber/flipper:

Please leave your thoughts below the article, or here.

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Stone Mountain, GA · Member since 2010 · 267 posts · 72 votes
16y

Hey it is a nice detailed expalaination for newbies and some experienced investors to take note. However, still missing several expenses such as :

1. Property Appraisal -- If I am buying from a Whoelsaler -- I like to have my own appraisal --" as-is" and after repairs value. Which may cost $3000 to $6000.

2. My Profit-- Before I decide to even consider the property --I have to make sure that I make at least $20,000 profit
for houses under $150,000 ARV and $40,000 for houses above $150,000 ARV.

3. Discount -- No one ever sells a house at Full FMV or ARV price --in todays economy. Even before recession --most buyers ask for discount off of listing price. I may discount 10 % to 15 % to sell quickly in todays market.

4. Closing Costs -- If I want to sell quickly after finishing repairs and / or increase my profits by reducing holding costs --I may have to sahre some of the closing costs for new buyer ( end buyer) --upto 3 % --- or some times offer FREE HDTV or even a Car --

5. Realtor's commission --yes -he did mention that when selling --However I may offer 5% commission instead of 3 %
to attract more buyers and more agents
interest --there by creating more competition for offers as well as reducing holding time.

That also assumes that Realtor's commission is paid by Bank ( Lender ) when we buy the house.

6. One more -- Dont forget to add at least 10% contingency --on top of contractor's bid for repairs --

7 Also --if you are buying out of state --make sure the repair estimates are prepared by that city
( state's ) local contractor--certifide and licensed in that state.

8 That reminds me another expense --if repair costs are over certain amount or for certain type structure ( such as a deck or adding new bathroom ) - may require a building permit from city or county--so add permit costs --some times included in contarctor's bid.

In general -- I never take what they show
as profit on listed properties --in BP or other websites. I assume very conservatively --half the profit or less -of the equity shown. Each property has to be evaluated on its own --based on ARV,
holding time, repairs and profit before making offer to buy.

champak shah

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  • Flipper/Rehabber · Glastonbury, CT · Member since 2015 · 17 posts · 7 votes
    10y

    Good article - many people fail to remember those soft costs (realtor fees, conveyance, town taxes, utilities etc).  Its not for a casual hobby unless they have money to lose!

  • Tacoma, WA · Member since 2015 · 141 posts · 29 votes
    10y

    I watched a show once that showed two woman doing a flip on a really old how in bad shape. It took them three months to renovate it. I do not recall the profit but when I calculated how many work hours in three months divided into the profit, it turned out they made 10 dollars a hour on the project. 

    I want to avoid a house like that at all cost. My cousin is going to sell her dads estate and it was made in 1940 and located in Portland Oregon. It is small at 1,350 square feet and I need to call her again to get some information but...as a function of locating the right property age, what should be the oldest property? I am not going after turn of the century Victorian only small rentals. 

  • Engineer · Portland, OR · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    Lorin,  for a post depression wartime house in Portland that's actually bigger than average.  Also asking what year house to buy because  you perceive old houses as bad without knowing build quality worries me.  I would strongly suggest you bone up on your real estate basics before considering making any investments.

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Lorin K.:

    I watched a show once that showed two woman doing a flip on a really old how in bad shape. It took them three months to renovate it. I do not recall the profit but when I calculated how many work hours in three months divided into the profit, it turned out they made 10 dollars a hour on the project. 

     That's why many of us don't do work on our own properties -- we hire out the $10/hour jobs to people who are much better/faster at it than we are, and we earn substantially more just by managing those people.

  • Tacoma, WA · Member since 2015 · 141 posts · 29 votes
    10y

    This one house was really old a total gut job and they made lots of mistakes. BTW, are there  terms in the investor/renovator community for what level of renovation a house needs? I do not know. So make up my own. Light reno = carpet and paint.  Medium Reno =  Carpet, Paint. Heavy Reno = Kitchen/Bathroom tear down, paint , carpet. Heavy Reno = tear down to the studs. You get the point. 

  • Round Lake Beach, IL · Member since 2016 · 50 posts · 11 votes
    10y

    Great article.  As someone interested in starting to do my own renovations, I am always weary starting because I can never get a good indication of how much my "real" costs will be once I start.  Were most of these repairs done by yourself?  Meaning the kitchen counter tops and your material costs?

  • Architect · Joliet, IL · Member since 2015 · 207 posts · 119 votes
    10y

    As someone looking into my first flip, I really appreciate the detailed breakdown. Thanks for the sticky. I'll be coming back to this article for sure.

  • Real Estate Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2015 · 50 posts · 11 votes
    10y

    Great article with real world advice.

    Thank you

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Ahwahnee, CA · Member since 2014 · 95 posts · 26 votes
    10y

    There are so many hidden costs, and then trying to not outsmart yourself.   I tore out the one wall of cabinets in my 3rd flip (to save $$), since there was only ONE wall of 5 cabinets. along with the sink & counter.  And ~ I hurt my shoulder, being careful and all.   Nope.  Now I let my handyman or contractor rip em' out, they get it done in minutes, love doing it, and I work on crunching numbers.  Good deal!

    One unexpected thing that's popped up in my last 3 flips is having to texture some or all of the interior.  Now I just budget for it.  If it's not necessary, it's found money.  

  • New York City, NY · Member since 2016 · 16 posts · 1 vote
    10y

    Great article and totally agree with all points based on my initial research. 

    If the buyer has an agent, total commission on the sales price is 6%, correct? 3% for the listing agent and 3% for the buying agent?

    Are taxes prorated? If you hold a house for 6 months, shouldn't you only be responsible for 6 months of tax payments?

    Lastly, is insurance based in annual policy? Do the COIs from the contractors list you (the rehabber) as additionally insured?

  • Arlington, TX · Member since 2015 · 220 posts · 40 votes
    10y
    Nicely done.
  • Lender · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2016 · 102 posts · 45 votes
    10y

    Thank you for this post and for Justin penning the original article.  I am at the beginning stages of a flip and this was a big help.

  • Real Estate Agent · Venice, FL · Member since 2016 · 7 posts · 3 votes
    10y

    Hello , I have done first hand the construction on my flips and sub some of the work out as needed or by a licensed professional ie electrician plumber etc. I have done this since 1984. My first flip was my own first home. I used simple math at first . Now i have after 30 plus years and now a realtor in Venice Florida. I  help many buyers and sellers and investors reach there goal. My construction company and my flipping llc did many flips. I would laugh at a investor that yelled at me to finish my work sooner as they stepped on the newly laid tile and screamed someone better get this done tonight. I seen that on a show once. I could see the tile move. Also the so called tv show says well the contractor found a problem and the investor tries to make the problem the contractors.That is for ratings IE we just found that the walls have termite damage. Oh what to do. Well apparently the investor didn't spend the $40.00 or so dollars to have a termite inspection. Please know that I am a Realtor now but oh there is so much to know besides just the numbers and each project is as different as there are individual human beings. Yes I know the 1% rules 2% roi and other formulas and they general work well but know that it is always a risk. Do you plan for 10% more in overages for that home to be rehabbed and flipped or more as an example? It all takes experience and that is not in the formulas. Learn from someone that has been around awhile I call it mentoring. That is better than any tv show , book or formula or just taking a guess that it will all work out. Surround yourself with knowledge and knowledgeable people.  Have a Great Day!!!!

  • Investor / Vendor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 949 votes
    9y

    Estimating the math is really complicated. That's why it makes sense to either manually do it by reading J Scott's book on rehab estimations, or use a software application that does the calculations for you - kinda like TurboTax for taxes. 

    I'm curious as to why so few people use software to help simplify their lives.

  • Investor · san antonio, TX · Member since 2016 · 133 posts · 43 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Darrell Shepherd:
    Originally posted by @Champak Shah:
    No --that price is variable based on what state and what price range --In Atlanta it may be from $350 to $800 for normal appraisal --but for ARV appraisal from an experienced person who specializes in that may be $1000 to $1500 --I may have over priced that --Point is just keep in mind to add appraisal cost as another expense .. Thanks
    champak shah

    I did the 'appraisal' on the one I'm going to lock down today on my iphone while drinking beers at Tilted Kilt last night. OK, I did go get my laptop and dork out at the bar checking FMLS solds some when I realized it was a winner from my Redfin, Zillow and Trulia apps, but you get the picture.

    This is for everyone, not trying to bash people, its your business, run it how you want, but personally I trust agents over appraisers, they have a better feel for the market. Appraisers tend to be more technical and miss the emotional stuff that people are willing to pay for (or not buy over). Appraisers also work larger areas so dont really know the local market as well. Plus, agents will do the work for free if they know they'll get the listing when you're done. If you need help on the rehab estimate, pay a contractor $50-$100 to write up a hard estimate. Or better yet, buy J Scott's book on estimating and do it yourself.

    The only one I had appraised before I bought did more damage than helped. It was my first one over $500k so I thought I was covering my bases. Guy I used was way off. Lesson learned.

    Not trying to bash anyone, its your business run it how you want, but paying that kind of money for what is nothing more than a fancy opinion is just silly IMO.

    BTW, I'm with everyone else, I watch those shows knowing a lot of times they lost money on the deal they show a 'Potential Profit' on. I had to quit watching them because the cost on repairs was not even remotely close to reality and it would just piss me off.

    It doesn't take but doing one flip to realize what the hidden costs are. I don't line item mine out before hand (although I do check taxes beforehand in some areas), if my margins are right it all works out, but generally I'm at 15% in costs on any given rehab so if I buy at what BP preaches (70% less repairs) my profit is around 15% of the ARV when the dust settles. I was buying at 65% or better for a while there, but lately its been hard to find them at 70%. so I've been cheating a little. BTW, that 15% cost includes cost of money at 100% of costs with private lending, I pay a little more for that but can do more deals that way.

    great flips, if we make 10% of ARV after all costs including hard money we are ecstatic.

  • San Diego, CA · Member since 2017 · 17 posts · 4 votes
    9y

    My question is when you're choosing a house to flip and renovate are you guys re-designing theses houses yourselves and managing the construction or how do you go about planning for reconstruction and design ideas?

  • Property Manager · Livonia, MI · Member since 2011 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Maxwell Howard:

    My question is when you're choosing a house to flip and renovate are you guys re-designing theses houses yourselves and managing the construction or how do you go about planning for reconstruction and design ideas?

     depends. if you are talking multi million house, most people get a designer/architect to suggest chages.

    if you are talking about a 100k, you just replace what's there and people fall i love with it cause it's "NEW"!

  • San Diego, CA · Member since 2017 · 17 posts · 4 votes
    9y
    George P. So you simply get a contractor and ask them to refinish and replace everything? What about specific design details such as tile and all? If you wouldn't mind sharing personal experiences it would be appreciated
  • Property Manager · Livonia, MI · Member since 2011 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Maxwell Howard:

    George P. So you simply get a contractor and ask them to refinish and replace everything? What about specific design details such as tile and all? If you wouldn't mind sharing personal experiences it would be appreciated

     no, it is not that simple... you have to know your market and update accordingly. you wont do granite or bust walls on a 30k house (midwest). you will not find many contractors that want to work on a 30k house either.

    you are asking for trouble if you are leaving the design ideas to your contractor. you should pick whatever you want the final product to look like. look at magazines, pics, design ideas and pick whatever you like. 

    look on my site and you'll see the tiles are the same, the counters are the same, the floors look the same. same paint, lights, door knobs, appliances. same staging supplies too.

    once you find what works for you, just repeat it over and over.

  • Atlanta, GA · Member since 2016 · 44 posts · 9 votes
    9y

    I love this article, one of my biggest fears is underestimating the cost of a rehab and losing money on my first flip. Thanks Justin for a fully accurate representation of what actually goes into a flip!

  • Realtor · Boonsboro, MD · Member since 2017 · 26 posts · 8 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Ted Harris:

    I'm like Justin that I enjoy watching those 'flip' shows but I usually end up shaking my head at the end when they post some ridiculous supposed profit for the investor when in fact, they are gonna be lucky to not LOSE money. So many costs they don't take into account .... :roll: :oops:

    Great article Justin!

     I wonder if any the network covers any of the hidden costs associated with flips?! Yes great article though, and food for thought as I am keen to dive into a flip! (No pun intended)

  • Wholesaler · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2014 · 137 posts · 40 votes
    9y

    Thanks @JUSTIN PIERCE For writing this wonderful article and describing the things so briefly. 

    And Thanks to you @Joshua D. for sharing this on discussion. 

  • Johnson City, TN · Member since 2017 · 49 posts · 27 votes
    9y

    What after-tax profit margin % of the final sale price are you guys trying to get (assuming you use 39.6% short-term capital gains tax).  On this guys deal he netted about a 17% after-tax profit margin.  How does it deal compare to others?  I feel like people forget about the real estate investing tax-implications for short-term capital gains.  You always hear people say they made 50k but after they pay their taxes it is much much lower.   

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    9y

    You don't pay capital gains on flip -- you pay ordinary income taxes at your marginal rate plus self-employment taxes.

    That said, I don't consider my after-tax profit, just pre-tax.  Depending on the tax shelters I use, my tax bracket can vary significantly from year to year.

    I shoot for 20% pre-tax.

  • Jon S.Pro Member
    Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2015 · 530 posts · 92 votes
    9y
    @Joshua D. Eight years later, still a very good post, thank you for posting this. 

    Originally posted by @Joshua D.
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