Would you take this gut rehab deal or walk?

Would you take this gut rehab deal or walk?

Investor · Lucas, TX · Member since 2010 · 620 posts · 352 votes

A place just came on the market 2 days ago. It is owned by FannieMae and has been vacant for a year. The previous owner started a rehab job. It looks like they got as far as completely gutting it. There are interior wall studs. The outside siding is slightly cracked, splitting and rotten in some place. The brick work is good. No foundation issues. Roof may be suspect. So on to the numbers.

This house is in a highly desirable neighborhood north of Dallas. The bank is asking $110K. My realtor comps ARV at $305K. I have plenty of capital but will probably use my hard money lender who I have worked with in the past. I am sure he will back me on this project. But I don't have time. I need to get an offer in and then talk to my experts.

So here's the problem; I have only done a half dozen rehabs over the past decade. Probably a dozen if you count cosmetic only rehabs. I have even done two mold rehabs. I plan to use a GC to do the whole job on this one instead of piecemeal. But the gutted house is scaring me. Should I take that as a good sign? Do I need to step out of my comfort zone? I am figuring about $100K to rehab the place and bring it up to the executive home standard of the neighborhood (granite, hardwoods, non-builder grade stuff).

So given my experience and the numbers on this deal would you take it or walk away?

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Real Estate Investor · Salem, OR · Member since 2011 · 422 posts · 149 votes
15y

I would take on a gutted rehab any day. Think of all the problems you can see in advanced!!!

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  • Residential Real Estate Agent · Chandler, AZ · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 928 votes
    15y

    Is your HML lending on your rehab budget as well? If so, I would take it down. If they are not lending on your rehab budget, then the profit is good but the ROI could be better. 100K rehab on a 300K house is a lot of capital tied up.

  • Wholesaler · Dallas, TX · Member since 2011 · 294 posts · 152 votes
    15y

    What are the DOM in that area for houses in the $300K range?

  • Investor · Lucas, TX · Member since 2010 · 620 posts · 352 votes
    15y
    Originally posted by Justin S.:
    Is your HML lending on your rehab budget as well? If so, I would take it down. If they are not lending on your rehab budget, then the profit is good but the ROI could be better. 100K rehab on a 300K house is a lot of capital tied up.

    Yes. The HML will provide the rehab budget. I just have to put down 15% of the entire project cost at closing. Total investment is around $34K or so from memory.

    "Take it down" means take it off the market by getting it under contract? Learning new lingo everyday.

  • Real Estate Investor · Charlotte, NC · Member since 2011 · 252 posts · 56 votes
    15y

    the numbers look pretty good...if your under 210k on the whole project you are at about 68% arv which is a deal. It's a huge risk to take on with that amount of money but the numbers make sense.

  • Real Estate Investor · Salem, OR · Member since 2011 · 422 posts · 149 votes
    15y

    I would take on a gutted rehab any day. Think of all the problems you can see in advanced!!!

  • Residential Real Estate Broker · Katy, TX · Member since 2011 · 10 posts · 2 votes
    15y

    the figures sound attractive looking at it for the outside, but there are still more questions to be asked. Also, have you done a search for outstanding liens.

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    15y

    If your numbers are accurate ($110K to purchase and $100K to rehab), and assuming fixed costs of about $40K (to cover closing costs, commissions, concessions, holding costs, etc), you're looking at about 25% ROI (assuming cash purchase and rehab), and if you can get this bought, fixed and sold in 6 months, that's an annualized ROI of 50%.

    That's a reasonable return for a larger project. And if you can keep you total hold time to 4 months (which would be my goal), that's 75% annualized ROI, which is great for a project of that size.

  • Investor · Lucas, TX · Member since 2010 · 620 posts · 352 votes
    15y

    Thanks for the input guys.

    Oswin I will be getting a title policy so any liens will show up when they do the title search.

    So the numbers look good (I assume you guys think $100K is not u nreleastic to finish out a 2000+ sq.ft. house) but what I am still concerned about is outside the realm of numbers. What that is I am not exactly sure. It just seems like a lot to bite off. I guess I am looking for someone experienced at doing this like J Scott to tell me to not be a scaredy cat and take the bull by the horns ;)

  • Rehabber / Flipper · Simi Valley, CA · Member since 2010 · 597 posts · 259 votes
    15y

    Hi, Robert. It looks like a good deal. I'm by no means as experienced as Jason, but here is how I look at deals like this: If the numbers seem good and there is buffer there for comfort, then even if you end up only breaking even or losing a little, you will likely learn a lot, and that education is valuable.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Orlando, FL · Member since 2008 · 263 posts · 147 votes
    15y

    I like the deal - the only thing with anything that has been locked up for a year is mold, termites, etc. Why not make them an offer "you" can not refuse - if you're nervous at $110k, then offer them $78k as that would give you more wiggle room. Give yourself a ten day contingency and get the GC to give you a firm bid; and have an inspection done to assuage your concerns.

    TTFN,
    Greg

  • Will BarnardPro Member
    Moderator
    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    15y

    Don't be scared of a full gut rehab, the numbers you posted look great, not good. Also, with the home already down to the studs, you have less demo and waste to deal with and slapping in the drywall all new is much easier at times than trying to tie in some existing to new. Then you go through and tape, mud and shoot the texture. From there, all you have is the painting.

    Not sure how large the home is, however, if the exit value is $300k in TX, I must assume it is around 4k sq. ft. If it is smaller than that, your rehab could very well be less.

    Is the electrical and plumbing in tact and good (other than minor repairs)? If so, you have all the hard work out of the way, all you need is the finish out. Get your offer in and run with it.

    If this is an REO, the bank will not come down to such a low offer so that would be a waste of time. Besides, the numbers are great as they are, if you can get it for less, even better, but don't lose such a good deal by overanalyzing!
  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    15y
    Originally posted by Robert Steele:
    ... I plan to use a GC to do the whole job on this one instead of piecemeal. ...

    Start talking to GC candidates now, to find out how much of a rehab budget you will be needing to do the scope of work and types of finishes that you described. IMO, that should help you get more comfortable with the numbers on the rehab. And if they start talking numbers much higher than you were expecting, then you know to walk.

  • Real Estate Agent · Winter haven, FL · Member since 2011 · 572 posts · 336 votes
    15y

    Great deal! You should go for it. But the only advise I have is to be careful with finishing's you use even though it is in an up scale area, do not over do it with the luxury features. Focus on the budget.

  • Real Estate Investor · Huntington Beach, CA · Member since 2008 · 221 posts · 9 votes
    15y

    If it is gutted, I would think it would make it easier to check out all the wiring, plumbing, gas lines, any wood rot, termites, etc. I might like to rehab a place like that.

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    15y
    Originally posted by Robert Steele:
    I guess I am looking for someone experienced at doing this like J Scott to tell me to not be a scaredy cat and take the bull by the horns ;)

    I'll make you a deal...

    If you can tell me that you're very confident that both the $100K rehab number and the $305K resale value are within 15% of accurate (and that you're reasonably confident that they're within 10% of accurate), then I'll tell you to stop being a scaredy cat and just take the bull by the horns!

    The numbers are great assuming they're accurate...

  • Real Estate Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2009 · 66 posts · 12 votes
    15y

    Robert,

    Very interested to hear what decision you arrive at, and if you go forward with it, the progress of the rehab. Please post back as you are able as this sounds like a very interesting job tat many can benefit from. Best of luck to you.

    Jeff

  • Investor · Lucas, TX · Member since 2010 · 620 posts · 352 votes
    15y

    I don't want to parade a bunch of GC's through the property just yet because:
    a) I don't want to waste their time until I have it under contract.
    b) I don't want them to steal it from me.

    Assuming I get it under contract then I will bring in the GC's and get firmer numbers. Then I will be able to be more confident on wether to move forward or not.

    I'll keep you guys posted. Thanks for all the advice.

  • Will BarnardPro Member
    Moderator
    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    15y

    I agree with that, until you have it locked, anybody could get it so keeping it under a tight lip is smart.

    Do let us know what becomes of this and my offer still stands, assuming the numbers are accurate and I am sure the rehab is (assuming I am correct on the size of the home).

    Will

  • Investor · Lucas, TX · Member since 2010 · 620 posts · 352 votes
    15y

    Update:

    I could not get it under contract as it went to an owner occupier during the 10 day "first look" period.

    I don't know what kind of retail owner occupier would want a gutted house. More likely it is an investor lieing in order to secure a great deal. It wouldn't be the first time I have seen something fishy like this.

    Even if it is a bona-fide OO part of the contract provisions are that they must move into the propery in 60 days. That is going to be one aggressive rehab.

    I am going to follow this property and see if I can catch the buyer in a lie. I am not sure what that will do, other than make me feel better, as I have done the same before and the government REO don't seem to care a whole lot when their rules are broken. I guess you just have to lie and cheat to get ahead in this game. Oh well.

  • Investor · Castle Rock, CO · Member since 2011 · 107 posts · 65 votes
    15y

    ARV - Rehab - Carry Costs - Every other cost = Offer Price. If ARV you mentioned is real, go for it!! If in question, physically go out and investigate ALL the comps and be OK with the valuation of ARV. All else will fall in place. Exit strategy should be a great property for a great price in the neighborhood in order to sell more quickly than typical DOM. Just my Colorado strategy.

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    15y
    Originally posted by Bryan Scott:
    ARV - Rehab - Carry Costs - Every other cost = Offer Price.

    I think you're forgetting the most important variable in that equation -- PROFIT!!! :D

  • Will BarnardPro Member
    Moderator
    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    15y

    I second that Jason! Nice catch.

    If this is a gitted rehab deal, I don;t see how the bank would even think of having to wait the 10 days for owner occupied offers as it is not habitable. That seems funny to me right off the bat. Second, you don't have to lie and cheat to get ahead, however, you do need to know how some games are played if you are going to be on thefield. That said, I would look into this deal closely, if nothing more than to learn from it.

    If the bank will place some ddeed restriction on re-selling the house, then that would be a problem for a flipper, unless it was only 60 or 90 days. It would take that long to do a full gut rehab anyways. if not, then it is possible that the investor lied, as they too had to be all cash as a gutted home is not financable.

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