Looking for information on underlayment for flooring that will go over concrete and wood subfloor. Even asking the folks at the store I get differing answers. Just trying to get a more narrow down "what is acceptable and what can I get".
On the instructions they suggest a 6mil vapor barrier on concrete, I would do that.
It says it doesn't need it on subfloor, but I always use it because it reduces the floating feeling of these click together floors. I also suggest you sand the seams so the subfloor is as flat and smooth as possible
Tranquility XD is the brand from Lumber Liquidators 4mm Edgewater Oak Luxury Vinyl Plank (LVP) Flooring - 50 Year Warranty
They talk about installing over Hydronic Radiant heating systems but nothing of concrete or wood subfloor.
The web site does not have any information on the floor for underlayment specific. I had to ask at the store, which is where I get differing opinions from the sales people. Trying to find someone who really knows about the product and not just sell me something has been challenging.
On the instructions they suggest a 6mil vapor barrier on concrete, I would do that.
It says it doesn't need it on subfloor, but I always use it because it reduces the floating feeling of these click together floors. I also suggest you sand the seams so the subfloor is as flat and smooth as possible
On the instructions they suggest a 6mil vapor barrier on concrete, I would do that.
It says it doesn't need it on subfloor, but I always use it because it reduces the floating feeling of these click together floors. I also suggest you sand the seams so the subfloor is as flat and smooth as possible
Hadn't thought of the seams, thanks for that tip.
The 6mil vapor barrier must be consistent throughout all manufactures. Home Depot said the same thing for one of their products. The sales associate actually said if that is not done then it would possibly void the warranty and the company would likely not honor it.
I managed to find their installation instructions and it actually says underlayment is not required but obviously can be done. Caveat that by saying the 6mil still needs to be done for concrete.
Since LL was one of the biggest sinners when it came to Ortho Pthalate contamination in their LVT I'd make sure that the box states it's ortho pthalate free otherwise return it. OP is a plasticizer used in LVT in the past or for cheaper production and was banned in 2009 in all vinyl children's toys due to its link to autism. A 2015 consumer study posted 68 different flooring products that were tested and LL's products at that time were 100%.
Regarding the installation, the pad that you can use under click lock LVT should be no thicker than 1.5mm and 1.0 would be better depending on the locking system(some are stronger than others). Consumers see the pad and "feel" a comfort level but there really isn't any difference. The pad's main advantage is sound proofing when installed over another liviing space like a main floor and it's going on the second floor. Also even the best one on the market only has a .5 R factor so it's really not a great insulator for the cold either.
True LVT or Rigidcore products by the way they are manufactured are less noisy compared to Click Lock floors that are WPC backed (most of them are white backers and if you look at the edge they look like a peel n stick tile was glued to the backer) because of the air pockets in the backers, just like the older laminates. Doesn't make them a bad floor as it will hide some imperfections in an unlevel subfloor, just need to a pad to quiet them down compared to Rigidcore or LVT.
BTW I've been in the flooring industry 30 years so just want to pass on what I've learned.
@Daria B., this is what I used recently to install LVT over concrete. Its a vapor barrier, but also insulates and reflects heat as well. I thought the price was reasonable and the product was good to work with.
I also installed LVT over an old tongue and groove floor in the same house. What I did there was run a floor sander over it to smooth out any imperfections, as well as clean up any globs of paint or joint compound. Then I used the shop vac and a damp mop to get it clean and ready to install the new floor over it.
Some of the investors in my group swear against LL for many other reasons.
I have tried several other flooring stores through all of their products with no luck in product and/or pricing and it came down to getting it from LL because my contractor could get a better price. I would have liked to get the flooring from Floor n Decor but the Gaithersburg MD store was sorely lacking what I wanted to get and was discounting products so quickly that I couldn't get anything in the quantity I needed.
After much more research and speaking with LL tech support about their recommended underlayment, I was reminded about the 6mil (also in the installation instructions) that needs to go down over the concrete.
I am putting down plank and not tile. I looked back and didn't see if I mistakenly said it was tile. This flooring is a LVP that is going over concrete and wood subfloor.
I have no idea about the health concerns discussed.
That said, I just got done installing LVP for the first time and so far I love it. I too hemmed and hawed over product, might have been the hardest of all decisions I made. I ended up going to the different stores and putting my hands on the product to really get a feel for what it was. I had a slightly uneven floor to go over, so I was looking for a floating system that had some flexibility. Ease of installation was important too. I chose LifeProof (?I think?) from Home Depot, which was the most expensive option they had ($3 a foot). It is thick, flexible, waterproof (to a degree) and appears durable (click-lock). I absolutely love it and expect it to last pretty much forever. Zero issues with a slightly uneven floor. The best part is if it doesn't last forever, it's a floating system and is easily demoed. I wanted to do my whole house in it after I installed it - lol. It's soft to walk on and is faux wood. Love it, love it, love it.
The only strange thing, and now that I hear these health issues am a bit freaked, is the saw dust is nuts. It also eats jigsaw blades and most of the cuts I made with the jigsaw were with all teeth gone, the blade was essentially a knife (still worked). No issue with the miter saw blade. The dust was stinky, really fine and hard to clean up - slippery as heck too.
I too did the same thing, every store look-touch-feel-experience.
In my case, it's a rental and I have a budget that is already looming over. Mostly because I underestimated what I thought flooring would cost. I got 3 contractor estimates and who I choose so far I am pleased with - they are right on top of everything. So for Home Depot even with a contractors reduction, it was too much. All in all I didn't do too bad and likely am overboard on what I feel is good-bad-indifferent on some cost because I am a frugal person. LOL I do shop around and also want the better-best quality for a good price-point that I can live with.
Regarding the environment, I should have been thinking of that as well but it was not something that was at the top of my list. I think I did ok and do not see anything in the specs on this particular flooring so hopefully I am good to go.
Some of the investors in my group swear against LL for many other reasons.
I have tried several other flooring stores through all of their products with no luck in product and/or pricing and it came down to getting it from LL because my contractor could get a better price. I would have liked to get the flooring from Floor n Decor but the Gaithersburg MD store was sorely lacking what I wanted to get and was discounting products so quickly that I couldn't get anything in the quantity I needed.
After much more research and speaking with LL tech support about their recommended underlayment, I was reminded about the 6mil (also in the installation instructions) that needs to go down over the concrete.
LVT is the industry term that covers plank and tile looks. LVP is just something a marketer came up with. There are plank shapes that look like stone now. FnD does do a brisk business. 6 mil of plastic? Do you have a moisture issue? Is this a below grade or on grade install? The 6mil plastic (also know as visqueen from any box store or Hardware store for cheaper) is only necessary if there is a moisture issue with the concrete. A moisture meter can check that. BTW if you are using a pad with a moisture barrier layer on it you don't need the visqueen. The underlays come both ways.
According to the installation instructions and the tech at LL I called, both say put down the 6mil plastic over concrete and then the underlayment. This is just for the concrete.
Several manufacturers reference the 6mil over concrete at install, otherwise, something about the warranty being voided or the fact they give the buyer a hard time if there are issues.
It’s a townhouse 3-lvl, 1st lvl walk in so the entire lower level is concrete heated space. Upper 2-lvls are OSB/plywood that was covered in carpet from onset of new construction. Flooring has never been finished where the carpet was installed.
To-date, there have never been moisture issues that I was aware of.
Protect your warranty if you're going to buy from this vendor. I don't know what your choices in your area. Personally any LVT that requires both pad and visqueen I wouldn't buy. True LVT is 100% waterproof. IT'S VINYL like a raincoat. I have recommended visqueen in basements only as a moisture barrier but moisture doesn't affect pvc. It was just to block the floor from sweating and the possiblity of developing mold on the back of the product. Hydrostatic pressure ( or moisture in concrete) affects glue which you are not using. If you haven't seen any wet spots then it's probably not an issue. First and foremost follow the installation guide to protect your warranty.
Protect your warranty if you're going to buy from this vendor. I don't know what your choices in your area. Personally any LVT that requires both pad and visqueen I wouldn't buy. True LVT is 100% waterproof. IT'S VINYL like a raincoat. I have recommended visqueen in basements only as a moisture barrier but moisture doesn't affect pvc. It was just to block the floor from sweating and the possiblity of developing mold on the back of the product. Hydrostatic pressure ( or moisture in concrete) affects glue which you are not using. If you haven't seen any wet spots then it's probably not an issue. First and foremost follow the installation guide to protect your warranty.
I wish I had time but the contractors need to keep moving and I don’t want them to stop all because I can’t get the flooring. I have been dealing with a lot of sales personnel that do not know their product. It’s been research and read research and read.
When I spoke with the LL tech it was “recommended” speak on certain things like this product does not require underlayment caveat that by having specific concrete and wood subfloor sections in the installation instructions that should be abide by. So while it does not require underlayment, it is recommended if wanting to dense the sound more when walking over top or added protection for moisture.
I also looked to the contractor for knowledge and in their experience it’s what ever products they have installed and what worked - that’s if anyone has come back and said “hey I have a problem with the floor”.
I used the Lifeproof from HD- it has a underlayment attached to it already and specifically states to NOT use additional underlayment under it. I was doing a second floor and had considered using additional underlayment to maximize the sound deadening effect until I read that info. No vapor barrier on concrete either.....
It was about $3.50/sq feet but by the time I added cost of underlayment and vapor barrier to some of the cheap stuff, the price wasnt that different....plus the time and hassle of working with the vapor barrier and underlayment etc disappeared.
I used the Lifeproof from HD- it has a underlayment attached to it already and specifically states to NOT use additional underlayment under it. I was doing a second floor and had considered using additional underlayment to maximize the sound deadening effect until I read that info. No vapor barrier on concrete either.....
It was about $3.50/sq feet but by the time I added cost of underlayment and vapor barrier to some of the cheap stuff, the price wasnt that different....plus the time and hassle of working with the vapor barrier and underlayment etc disappeared.
At this point I think flooring is the worse ever to pick out. I thought I would have this issue with kitchen cabinets but that was the simplest of all decisions.
@Daria B. I put LVP on top of concrete, plywood subflooring, and hardwood flooring, without any vapor barrier or underlayment. I've never had a problem
last time I shopped at LL, they salespeople were not the sharpest tool in the shed.....if you want true knowledge got to a good local flooring store..... one that sells both ends of the price range....and installs....you pay for their knowledge but you usually get the right info. The people at the low cost places are often poorly trained and have a real high turnover of staff
Like I said I used the Lifeproof....found one I liked and you can often find a decent amount in stock and ready to buy on the spot....easy to buy more or return extra
@Daria B. I put LVP on top of concrete, plywood subflooring, and hardwood flooring, without any vapor barrier or underlayment. I've never had a problem
I would love to not have to pay for underlayment.
Investors are 50/50 install/don’t install. Stores of course want to sell but I have had store sales people also say it’s not necessary - but it could be done if I were wanting to 1st, not mess up the warranty given the 6mil plastic mentioned in the install instructions, and 2, use it if the floor isn’t necessarily level or want to have added buffer for sound.
This property is also in MD where it gets cold. The slab is a finished walk in level of that makes a difference. I don’t know of that’s considered at-grade level.
last time I shopped at LL, they salespeople were not the sharpest tool in the shed.....if you want true knowledge got to a good local flooring store..... one that sells both ends of the price range....and installs....you pay for their knowledge but you usually get the right info. The people at the low cost places are often poorly trained and have a real high turnover of staff
Like I said I used the Lifeproof....found one I liked and you can often find a decent amount in stock and ready to buy on the spot....easy to buy more or return extra
Yes you are correct. The store LL folks were not any help at all, which is why I called the company tech support and at least they knew the products.
I am currently installing this as I used the underpayment you mentioned in your other post. I prefer it since it has reduced noise and has made the floor seem more solid imo.
I used the exact same LVP and underlayment OP had in other post. So far it looks and feels pretty good. Labor is expensive, doing what the manufacturer suggests for optimal results isn't something I want to do twice. I am happy and have a vapor barrier as well since I posted in OP's other thread.
I am currently installing this as I used the underpayment you mentioned in your other post. I prefer it since it has reduced noise and has made the floor seem more solid imo.
I did opt to do 6mil vapor barrier over concrete then underlayment over that as I didn’t want to go against the manufacture install instructions that would affect the warranty. I also did a lessor cost - same brand - of underlayment used throughout.