Rehabbing & House Flipping
Market News & Data
General Info
Real Estate Strategies
Landlording & Rental Properties
Real Estate Professionals
Financial, Tax, & Legal
Real Estate Classifieds
Reviews & Feedback
Ceramic Floor Problem
According to my observation, for whatever reasons, the mortar between tiles was not used the right mixture installed …. in between the tiles, there is some mortar and sand above the connection between the tiles.
It catches dirty easy. I consulted with some contractors. They suggested replacement of the floor which I am ready for this costly solution or knife off the dried mixture of mortar above the tiles... time consuming.
I used Oreck Orbiter Multi Purpose Floor Machine to scrub the floor a few times. The outcome was not so promising. .
There is big area to work on (12*13 sq fts). Some time it really bothers me. I am seeking better solution.
http://www.amazon.com/Oreck-Orbiter-Multi-Purpose-Machine/product-revi ews/B004ZP4B60
Any suggestion ?
Thank you for your advice.
The mortar inbetween the tiles is called Grout.
When grout is installed if it is not wiped clean off the surface of the tile it becomes a major pain.
What you need to do is go to Home Depot and buy a little jar of "Sulfmatic Acid" It comes in a little jar. It is produced by TileLab, who also make the cleaners and sealers. It is a white powder.
Mix a fair amount into a half gallon of warm water. (Wear gloves) Apply liberally to the floor and scrub with a hard bristle brush. Repeat 3-4 times for really bad applications.
---I ran the flooring department at Home Depot/Hechingers for 8 years before graduating---
Or you could just get a grout removal tool and grind it down manually. Depending on the size of the area which needs to be fixed this might be an easier solution. Below is an example of the tool.
http://www.zorotools.com/g/imagewindow/141062/
Is the problem what Patrick G. described (too much grout), or is it the thinset that was used to set the tile?
I have had guys that spread the thinset too heavy or used the wrong notched trowel and it squeezed up between the tiles like you described. I took a glazing tool (link below) when it was dry but before they grouted and scraped between the tiles and it would pop out fairly easily. If it has already been grouted over then you will most likely need to remove the grout and regrout like Glen Sonnenberg said unless the sulfmatic acid can dissolve the thinset as well.
[b]
Originally posted by Matt Devincenzo:
Is the problem what Patrick G. described (too much grout), or is it the thinset that was used to set the tile?I have had guys that spread the thinset too heavy or used the wrong notched trowel and it squeezed up between the tiles like you described. I took a glazing tool (link below) when it was dry but before they grouted and scraped between the tiles and it would pop out fairly easily. If it has already been grouted over then you will most likely need to remove the grout and regrout like Glen Sonnenberg said unless the sulfmatic acid can dissolve the thinset as well.
Thinset can actually make nice grout. If you like the color (grey or white). The main difference in thinset is that it is more expensive because it has more/different polymers to cuase a stronger bonding. So as you stated thinset will me harder to remove from the surface of the tile. But it can still be done with the sulfmatic acid.
The sulfmatic acid is definitely worth a try. I recently had to do this in a small bathroom in my home. The previous owner was a sub-par handyman. I think he attempted to regrout the bathroom with a darker color grout, but he certainly did not do a good job removing the existing grout. The entire bathroom was hazed with grout on the tile. The sulfmatic acid was $6, and I spent an evening on the floor scrubbing. It works really well to remove the haze. On the areas that have thicker caked on grout, it will definitely take more applications and perhaps a much higher concentration.
I'm not sure I understand the problem. I think, Frances L that you're saying that grout or mortar is sticking up above the level of the tile. You're trying to knock it down with a machine like this: Oreck Orbiter Multi Purpose Machine. That's not going to work. Whether its grout or mortar, it will be too hard for this machine. It you did get some sort of sanding pad that could knock down the grout or mortar, it would damage the tile.
When properly installed, there is mortar between the tiles and the underlayment. Ideally, that underlayment is cement backer board. Between the tiles, there should be no mortar. Its not uncommon, though, for some to squeeze up between the tiles during installation. A good installer should clean that out while its still wet. After the mortar cures and the tiles are tightly bonded, then grout is squeezed into the joints between the tiles. Done properly, that should result in the grout being slightly lower than the top of the tile. Here's a picture:
There is a process to grouting. The grout has to be poured over the tile, squeezed into place, allows to set a bit, then the haze removed before it can stick to the tile. Now, since I'm not sure what you're seeing, perhaps it is this hazing that is bothering you. In case, something like that Oreck machine with the right pads might help.
But assuming the issue is the grout or mortar sticking up too high (i.e., a sloppy installation.), that needs to be removed. Others have linked to a couple of manual tool. If you're going to DIY it, buy something like this:
Multi function power tool
Blade that will cut mortar (and your tile!)
This will cut that mortar or grout out. It will also easily slice through the tile and it will take a delicate hand to do it well. Alternatively, hire someone to clean up this mess and then regrout.
If you have already paid someone to install their tile, I'd be all over them to fix their sloppy work.
If you can post a pic of the floor and closeup of the grout lines that would go a long way for getting good advice. I wouldnt make a decision base on what a couple contractors said unless you know and trust them. Noone enjoys removing grout and there is more money in replacing floor. To make a decision, consider the following:
1. If it had a nice grout job, would a buyer say, "I love the tile"? Does it work with cabinets, countertops, etc?
2. Are the tile set level? Look at the corners and see if some tile are lower or higher than others.
3. If it was set by a hack, he may have not used an appropriate underlayment. Pull a transition or forced air floor register and see what the tile was set on. If its set on particle board or luan or directly on wood subfloor I would demo it and do it right.
4. Is it ceramic or porcelain? If its porcelain Id be more apt to try to save it if all else is good. If its ceramic, there is a much greater chance of chipping and scratching during the removal of grout so Id lean toward replacement.
If all else is good and the only problem with the floor is the grout job, you might run an ad on Craigslist for someone experienced in removing grout. There may be a tile setter out there hungry enough to spend a couple days on their knees removing and regrouting.
See pics. Thanks.
Yeah, that is grout haze / sloppy installation work. I've seen it a million times.
When John H. talked about squeezing in the grout, it is a bit misleading. You literally dump the grout on top of the floor and spread the grout into the spaces between the tiles with a float. Which is like a trowel, but it has a thick piece of soft rubber and then a thin piece of stiffer rubber. This will scrape the grout to a flat level with the tile. THEN you have to take a nice clean sponge and make a single pass over the floor. That will produce the nice concave shape of the grout shown in John H's picture. You can tell at the corner of your tiles, the installer just did a poor job of this. The key is to make a swiping motion at a 45 degree angle with the tile.
When the installer doesn't do it correctly the grout remain flat at the same top level of the tile.
The grout has can be cuased by using a dirty sponge, not changing the water frequently, or taking too long to wipe the tile off with the sponge.
Once again I really recommend the sulfmatic acid. It's cheap, it's works.
Good luck.
I have been living in the house for more than 15 years. I cleaned it over time and used the knife to scrub some mortar out some times. It did not work. Thanks.
I read the review in homedepot. It has been there for long time. I am wondering it will work. Thanks.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Custom-Building-Products-16-oz-Sulfamic-Acid-Cleaner-TLSAC1/100171510#BVRRWidgetID
I think acid will be a waste of time and money. It appears that the grout, or thinset use as grout, is so uneven that the only fix is to remove it or replace tile. It looks like thinset pushed out in spots upon install, and jounts werent cleaned out before grouting. Its near impossible to end up with grout higher than tile if anything close to proper procedures are followed.
Removing grout is a labor intensive process and when the grout extends onto the tile as it does here, its tough to get it cleaned of without chipping and scratching ceramic tile. Im inclined to agree with the contractors advice to replace it. It could cost a third the pruce of a new tile job just to get the existing tile cleaned up and regrouted, and then the end product will likely not be all that appealing. The joints dont look uniform and although I cant tell from pics, I highly doubt the tile are all level.
If you do decide to have it torn out and replaced, be sure to get pics of recent work and references from the contractors bidding on work.
Originally posted by Frances L.:
I read the review in homedepot. It has been there for long time. I am wondering it will work. Thanks.http://www.homedepot.com/p/Custom-Building-Products-16-oz-Sulfamic-Acid-Cleaner-TLSAC1/100171510#BVRRWidgetID
That's the Stuff!
It's definitely worth $6. Otherwise everyone else here is telling you to take a sledge hammer to your floor.
(I've also removed ceramic floors and let me tell you that is not fun)
Maybe I'm not understanding the stated problem or what I'm seeing in the pics, but I dont see a grout haze problem. I see a lousy setting and grouting problem, neither of which can be corrected with sulfamic acid.
No, a tile floor demo isnt fun, but neither is living on a bad tile job that you cant keep clean! Francis, please dont be intimidated... A good contractor will contain the mess and have that floor gone on day 1.
Hi Frances,
I see you're in Abington. Small world - I'm in Glenside! :-) I'm a licensed home improvement contractor, and I've done lots of tile work. I'm with the crowd in saying that you should try some sulfamic acid. Use a stiff bristle brush along with an acid/water solution to see if you can loosen up some of the "overflow" grout. Then wipe the surface clean with a sponge. You can also try some acetic acid, aka vinegar. It usually works pretty nicely too.
Now if the installer used an epoxy grout or put a sealer over the grout, well that would make the job a bit more difficult. But definitely try the acids first. They could be the most simple, inexpensive solution.
Chris
i'm actually the owner of a carpet/ tile and grout cleaning company. there is a product called tilemaster from TMF that will break up all dirt and grime with a 20 min dwell time and a little scrubbing. Once you finish it will look close to brand new, at this point you can purchase a grout coloring kit to make it darker so that it doesnt show dirt as much. Final step is to seal. If you want to do it yourself all products should cost around $100. Most local carpet cleaners offer the service so you may want to calla round and see if you can get a great deal
Just quick update for the tile. I purchased the stuff from homedepot. My tenant did not like the smell. We used water for a few mins to wet the floor and used towel to scrub all out. It looks great now. Thanks.