Help with title search

[Luka Jozic]

I have been trying to learn how to do my own title search and for the most part I feel like it is fairly straight forward. But there are a few cases where I kind of am getting stuck and was hoping someone could help me clarify.

Case 1: The bank on the foreclosure doesn't match the bank on the mortgage
Searching at the fiscal officer here for property with parcel ID 64104010 and then I go to "Get Documents List" and I see the mortgage was through JP Morgan Chase.

Then I search for the foreclosure case at the clerk of courts and I it says the person is being foreclosed by NEWREZ LLC FKA NEW PENN FINANCIAL, LLC. Why is that and what does that mean? I see this is the case for many foreclosures so my assumption is that JP Morgan Chase sold the loan (or something of that nature)?

Case 2: Multiple mortgages

Parcel ID 78124031, for this one there are a bunch of open-end mortgages then in 2008 a new 30 year mortgage with Washington Mult BK for 92K, Im guessing this is a refinance with a new bank? Then in 2011 another 30 year mortgage with JP Morgan Chase, guessing this is the same thing. And lastly in 2018 a freddie mac flex modification agreement with Nationstar Mortgage LLC. At the Clerk of Courts on the case it says MCLP ASSET COMPANY, INC is foreclosing. So Im just very confused here if this is foreclosure is a first position and exactly what is going on here?

Case 3: Liens and multiple foreclosures on the parcel

For parcel ID 64111134, I cant seem to find the initial mortgage from the sale in 1999, but there is a subordinate mortgage for $7K from 2016 i.e. second position mortgage. Then there are a few loan modifications and lastly a partial claim mortgage. My issue with this one is that when I search the parcel ID on Clerk of Courts there are a bunch of cases coming up. Only the most recent one is the one listed on the auction site but does that mean that the older ones are not active? There also seems to be a child support lien but its a rather small amount and Im not sure if its wiped out or not.

I understand that some will advice me to contact a title company to find this out, but paying for every property can get spendy and I would like to learn how to do this as best I can. However, if someone knows a title company that can do an unofficial/uninsured title search that doesn't cost like $150+ then please do share. Any help with this would be much appreciated. Thanks.

[Randy Rodenhouse]

In my opinion, you should never do your own title search because you will miss something.  There are professional title abstractors that can see thing you will miss. I don’t think it is worth your time and better to use your time finding properties to buy. 

[Chris Seveney]

@Luka Jozic

It’s great to understand but base on the investment you are considering you want to pay $150 for a title report.

Some reasons above are the loan was sold and their are assignments, the property may have multiple loans, property was scheduled to be foreclosed and was not.. there is a lot there but you also need to understand full chain to make sure no title issues and if it’s an auction what are you buying

[Ned Carey]

@Luka Jozic

Mortgages are often assigned to new note holders. Notes are freely transferable. However there is no reuirement that the transfer goes into the land records. Sometimes these tranfers show up in MERS. This is a record of mortage transfers but there is also no requirement to use this44. I don't know how to access MERS or how tile companies track down the new holder of a note. 

In situation 3 there may be multiople mortages The first case to finish will go to auction first. If that happens to be the ortge in first place the others are wipped out. If that is for the mortgae recorded in third place the first two still remain on title. 

Another possibiltiy in is situation 3 is the first forclosure in court records could have stopped and decided to sell the note instead. The the next holder of the same note could start foreclosure and decide it is two much work. So that person culd then sell the very same note to a third person who completes the foreclosure. 

Also it is very important to understand that you simply cannot do a full title searh in the land records. TItle companies check for deaths, divorces, bankruptcies, judegments etc. before insuring title. Many land records have very convoluted ways of indexing items. You might miss something due to not understanding that one type of search does not pull up a document. 

You wrote
       "but paying for every property can get spendy"

A big question is WHY do you want to do your own title search? Ther are very few situations where you need to do a full title search prior to taking action as an investor. 

[Luka Jozic]

Quote from @Ned Carey:

@Luka Jozic

Mortgages are often assigned to new note holders. Notes are freely transferable. However there is no reuirement that the transfer goes into the land records. Sometimes these tranfers show up in MERS. This is a record of mortage transfers but there is also no requirement to use this44. I don't know how to access MERS or how tile companies track down the new holder of a note. 

In situation 3 there may be multiople mortages The first case to finish will go to auction first. If that happens to be the ortge in first place the others are wipped out. If that is for the mortgae recorded in third place the first two still remain on title. 

Another possibiltiy in is situation 3 is the first forclosure in court records could have stopped and decided to sell the note instead. The the next holder of the same note could start foreclosure and decide it is two much work. So that person culd then sell the very same note to a third person who completes the foreclosure. 

Also it is very important to understand that you simply cannot do a full title searh in the land records. TItle companies check for deaths, divorces, bankruptcies, judegments etc. before insuring title. Many land records have very convoluted ways of indexing items. You might miss something due to not understanding that one type of search does not pull up a document. 

You wrote
       "but paying for every property can get spendy"

A big question is WHY do you want to do your own title search? Ther are very few situations where you need to do a full title search prior to taking action as an investor. 

 Thanks this is very helpful. So for case 3 (and other cases as well) it seems like the main thing here is to understand whether or not the mortgage being foreclosed on is the first position, if it is then the others don't matter as they will be wiped right?

The reason as to why is because I want to bid at auction. There are many properties and paying $150+ per property can get very expensive, especially since I will have to pay someone to drive by every property. Thats why if I can do title searches for most of them that would be great, then if there are maybe a few (such as the ones I posted) that are a little tricky I could pay for those only, but I'd still like to learn as much as possible.

[Tom Gimer]

Lien priority is based upon local law and can also be modified by contract and in equity. Doing your own title search without the experience of a title abstractor/ examiner and reviewing the foreclosure case file… man I wouldn’t try that.

[Kevin Sobilo]

Quote from @Luka Jozic:

I have been trying to learn how to do my own title search and for the most part I feel like it is fairly straight forward. But there are a few cases where I kind of am getting stuck and was hoping someone could help me clarify.

Case 1: The bank on the foreclosure doesn't match the bank on the mortgage
Searching at the fiscal officer here for property with parcel ID 64104010 and then I go to "Get Documents List" and I see the mortgage was through JP Morgan Chase.

Then I search for the foreclosure case at the clerk of courts and I it says the person is being foreclosed by NEWREZ LLC FKA NEW PENN FINANCIAL, LLC. Why is that and what does that mean? I see this is the case for many foreclosures so my assumption is that JP Morgan Chase sold the loan (or something of that nature)?

Case 2: Multiple mortgages

Parcel ID 78124031, for this one there are a bunch of open-end mortgages then in 2008 a new 30 year mortgage with Washington Mult BK for 92K, Im guessing this is a refinance with a new bank? Then in 2011 another 30 year mortgage with JP Morgan Chase, guessing this is the same thing. And lastly in 2018 a freddie mac flex modification agreement with Nationstar Mortgage LLC. At the Clerk of Courts on the case it says MCLP ASSET COMPANY, INC is foreclosing. So Im just very confused here if this is foreclosure is a first position and exactly what is going on here?

Case 3: Liens and multiple foreclosures on the parcel

For parcel ID 64111134, I cant seem to find the initial mortgage from the sale in 1999, but there is a subordinate mortgage for $7K from 2016 i.e. second position mortgage. Then there are a few loan modifications and lastly a partial claim mortgage. My issue with this one is that when I search the parcel ID on Clerk of Courts there are a bunch of cases coming up. Only the most recent one is the one listed on the auction site but does that mean that the older ones are not active? There also seems to be a child support lien but its a rather small amount and Im not sure if its wiped out or not.

I understand that some will advice me to contact a title company to find this out, but paying for every property can get spendy and I would like to learn how to do this as best I can. However, if someone knows a title company that can do an unofficial/uninsured title search that doesn't cost like $150+ then please do share. Any help with this would be much appreciated. Thanks.

Case 1: Mortgages get sold. So, the new owner might be on the foreclosure or the mortgage servicer. So, I don't think that is unusual because the loan originator usually doesn't keep the loan even though they may remain as the servicer.

Case 2: There should be mortgage satisfaction pieces recorded to tie up open mortgages. Perhaps they are recorded along with the new mortgage on a refi. I guess that could depend on the state. However, I have also seen where they forget to record them altogether creating a cloud on the title.

I imagine the sheriff or whomever is conducting the foreclosure sale/auction would be able to tell you about the existing liens and who stands to be paid and in what order from the sale since they will be dispersing the monies.

Also, you could contact the attorney for the lender who moved to foreclose for information.

Case 3: I don't have an opinion on.


Something you may wish to realize is that there is more to a title search than these kinds of liens. For example, issues created within the deed. Example: 30 years ago a brother and 2 sisters sell a house, but only the brother signs the deed with the sale. Did the sister's agree to the sale and intend to sell the property?!?

Depending on the state inheritance taxes could be an issue. A property owner dies and the heirs owe tax to the state for the value of the home. This may not be recorded anywhere but still be a "lien" attached to the property.

Errors in the legal description of the property. There can be errors in the deed describing exactly what the property is! Surveyors may have made an error when subdividing the property or a typo may have been introduced somewhere.

There are MANY MANY issues that affect the title to property. Too many to list which is why title insurance is a thing and why you want to make sure you realize your own title research may not find everything applicable.

[Ned Carey]

@Luka Jozic
      The reason as to why is because I want to bid at auction.

Well that is one of the Possible reasons to do a title search. First you need to know yiour state foreclosure laws and what gets wiped out at a foreclosure. If things are getting wiped out by the forecosure then no need to look for them. Read the terms of the auction and the contract you are signing. If they are offering free and clear insureable title then you generally don't need to do any more research. 

Now if the above is true, that everyone gets wiped out, you only need to research the order of liens to make sure the first is foreclosing. You need to consider risk, when bidding at any aution. One risk is there are things that come up you are not expecting. 

[Luka Jozic]

Quote from @Ned Carey:

@Luka Jozic
      The reason as to why is because I want to bid at auction.

Well that is one of the Possible reasons to do a title search. First you need to know yiour state foreclosure laws and what gets wiped out at a foreclosure. If things are getting wiped out by the forecosure then no need to look for them. Read the terms of the auction and the contract you are signing. If they are offering free and clear insureable title then you generally don't need to do any more research. 

Now if the above is true, that everyone gets wiped out, you only need to research the order of liens to make sure the first is foreclosing. You need to consider risk, when bidding at any aution. One risk is there are things that come up you are not expecting. 

Just spoke to some lady at the county who basically said that all properties for this county are clean title. If you look at the case at clerk of courts it says foreclosure marsh. of liens, which basically means that they notify all the lien holders and the foreclosure is for all those liens. She said that their attorneys perform title search before it going to auction and that the minimum bid usually is the total amount owed however if the property sells for less then the lien holders take that loss. She also said that the winning bidder  will not have to pay any other outstanding liens as they are all included in this foreclosure process. When asking about how I can verify if its first position lien she said the county is first position and the mortgage company second, not sure what to make of that but she did assure me that I will not have to pay any other liens or have any issues selling later down the line as these are all clean title. 

To me, that sounds like I don't need to do title search at all. But, as a precautionary measure she did show me where to find all the liens at the clerk of courts, which might be a good thing to do.

[Peter Walther]

You don't write what state the property you're looking at is in, but whenever I read a post about someone wanting to learn how to do their own title search (and invariably they fail to mention being able to actually examine the documents they find) I provide a link to a Florida Supreme Court decision styled Mayfield v. First City.  I think if you take the time to read it, you may understand why even if you do a first class, cracker jack, no mistake search and exam, you can still get burnt.

Also, I recall a title claim I worked on where a first lender filed a foreclosure action naming the 2nd & 3rd lenders as defendants.  Both of those lenders filed 3rd party complaints against the borrower inside the original action.  The 2nd lender obtained a final judgment before the 1st lender and scheduled a foreclosure sale which went through.  The 3rd party bidder obtained a Certificate of Title and sold to a purchaser who obtained a title policy from a company I worked for.  The title examiner missed the fact the CT was for a foreclosure of the 2nd mtg and the insured submitted a claim after the high bidder for the 1st lender's sale stopped by and let the insured know he no longer owned the property. And so it goes.

Mayfield v. First City Bank of Fla., 95 So. 3d 398 | Casetext Search + Citator

[Wayne Brooks]

@Peter Walther Yes, I saw the same thing a couple of times here. After the first mtg filed foreclosure, the second mtg holder “joined”, I forget the exact legal term, and somewhere through the process it converted to the Second mtg who was actually foreclosing, even though the case heading still had the 1st mtg holder name when it went to auction….as easy one to miss/mess up on.

[Peter Walther]

Quote from @Wayne Brooks:

@Peter Walther Yes, I saw the same thing a couple of times here. After the first mtg filed foreclosure, the second mtg holder “joined”, I forget the exact legal term, and somewhere through the process it converted to the Second mtg who was actually foreclosing, even though the case heading still had the 1st mtg holder name when it went to auction….as easy one to miss/mess up on.

I found the problem to be insurers decided it was more cost effective to pay the occasional claim that came up then to give examiners the time to properly examine the foreclosure file.  You're right, if you just look at the case styling on the FJ you'll assume it's the first lender's lien being foreclosed.

[Trent Dues]

As a title rep, my stance is of course to advise not to gamble your money and take on the risks yourself, BUT depending on your goals for the property, you may be safe in your decision. Is your plan to renovate and hold the properties as rentals long term? Are you looking to flip them soon after you purchase? If you're intending to purchase cash and refinance in the near future, you're guaranteed to have a title search run during the refinance, in which case I can understand not wanting to pay for a search twice in a short period, but understand that you as an individual don't have the same protections as the local government or bank handling a foreclosure or Sherriff sale. My 2 cents would be to not burn yourself and get stuck with an upside down purchase in an effort to save a couple hundred bucks.

[Ned Carey]

@Luka Jozic

If I understand your reply it sounds like you are bidding at a tax auction not a foreclosure auction. That is a totally different animal.

You should talk to some local title companies to find out if they can insure title on tax auction properties. It is possible some will and some won’t. Some may say you need to wait a year or even three years to insure the title.

[Luka Jozic]

Quote from @Ned Carey:

@Luka Jozic

If I understand your reply it sounds like you are bidding at a tax auction not a foreclosure auction. That is a totally different animal.

You should talk to some local title companies to find out if they can insure title on tax auction properties. It is possible some will and some won’t. Some may say you need to wait a year or even three years to insure the title.

No its not tax auction its foreclosures. 

[Ned Carey]

How would an county emplyee know what private attorneys do in a mortgage foreclosure? While theoretically they should be served and wiped out, She would not know if it was done correctly. I suspect you need to read the specific terms of auction or auction contract to see what kind of title is being delivered. 

[Tom Gimer]

OP needs to research the doctrine of "lien marshalling" in OH.

Junior lien holder foreclosing in the context of an over-secured senior creditor. 

Good luck with that!

[Gina Stern]

I would urge you to spend the money on a professional title search done by a title abstractor. For the little extra money that it costs, it could ultimately save you a lot of money in the long term. Good luck! 

[Kevin Sobilo]

Quote from @Luka Jozic:

Quote from @Ned Carey:

@Luka Jozic
      The reason as to why is because I want to bid at auction.

Well that is one of the Possible reasons to do a title search. First you need to know yiour state foreclosure laws and what gets wiped out at a foreclosure. If things are getting wiped out by the forecosure then no need to look for them. Read the terms of the auction and the contract you are signing. If they are offering free and clear insureable title then you generally don't need to do any more research. 

Now if the above is true, that everyone gets wiped out, you only need to research the order of liens to make sure the first is foreclosing. You need to consider risk, when bidding at any aution. One risk is there are things that come up you are not expecting. 

Just spoke to some lady at the county who basically said that all properties for this county are clean title. If you look at the case at clerk of courts it says foreclosure marsh. of liens, which basically means that they notify all the lien holders and the foreclosure is for all those liens. She said that their attorneys perform title search before it going to auction and that the minimum bid usually is the total amount owed however if the property sells for less then the lien holders take that loss. She also said that the winning bidder  will not have to pay any other outstanding liens as they are all included in this foreclosure process. When asking about how I can verify if its first position lien she said the county is first position and the mortgage company second, not sure what to make of that but she did assure me that I will not have to pay any other liens or have any issues selling later down the line as these are all clean title. 

To me, that sounds like I don't need to do title search at all. But, as a precautionary measure she did show me where to find all the liens at the clerk of courts, which might be a good thing to do.

@Luka Jozic, if you are going to take legal advice from "some lady at the county" you are asking for trouble. Talk to a real estate lawyer in your state if you don't have a handle on your state's laws with regard to foreclosure sales.

These kinds of foreclosure sales and tax sales are MESSY! Yes, technically MANY of the voluntary liens are wiped out as a result but that does NOT guarantee clean marketable title as SO many things can affect title.

The lady you spoke to is 100% WRONG because as an example IRS tax liens can't be wiped away by a state law (foreclosure law) sale because an IRS tax lien is federal.

[Gina Stern]

Hi Luke. It really is essential to do professional due diligence and get a title report done properly from a legitimate company. Cheap can become expensive and the clerks at the county can be inexperienced so do not, at any cost, rely on their advice! Good luck!