Note buyers

26 Replies

Where do you find serious buyers that purchase NPNs/Commercial property. I don't want to deal with "tire kickers". It seems like everyone just want to circulate your list and it comes back to you with an even BIGGER price tag. 

There is an audience here on BP.  What are the general characters of the deal (property type, UPB, location, etc)  Also, what is your role in the deal?

To post that information, you will need to post in the Marketplace here on BP not in this forum.

Hi Dion, my role Im direct to seller (facilitator). I have mixed properties SFH, Hotels, apts MFR, and CRE. UPB vaires and the deals are nationwide.

Frankly, @Lee Goree , that sounds like some sort of daisy chain.  Common in this business and unlikely to produce any real results.   Does this seller/facilitator work for the lender or servicer that actually owns these notes?

Sorry Jon I can guarantee you that my deals are EXCLUSIVE. If you are interested in gathering more information you can leave your contact information below. Please don't speak about what you dont know.

@Lee Goree  I saw your ad offering billion dollar packages.  You're about the 1000th person to post this kind of stuff.  Good luck.

Thank you Jon and good luck to you as well. 

Sounds like a daisy chain to me. I agree with Jon Holdman.

Look at the website for distressed debt conferences and find the list of sponsors.  Many of these are big hedge funds.

Thank you Joseph and Ken I will do just that. 

@Lee Goree  

 You find serious buyers are only going to deal with  serious sellers .... these types of deals trade off line and in big smoky rooms filled with big boy players... Not brokers at least my experince

@Lee Goree  

  this type of stuff reminds me of a crazy associate of mine that decided he was going to get into commodities.. and he was going to trade jet fuel or remember the Africa gold craze he did both..

He spent days and weeks and months talking to people all over the world about selling Jet fuel..from his basement in Beaverton Oregon.. I would stop by and say really.. you think with the margins so thin in airline revenue that American Airlines is going to over pay by 1 million for jet fuel so you can make a million dollar fee.. Don't you think they have been buying jet fuel since the 50s... its not like this is publicly traded on the Chicago board of exchange like pork bellies and timber futures etc.. of course he wasted a year .. Then he decided on the gold he went to Mali Africa spent 2 months there never made a dime.. then off to Columbia and British Columbia it was a joke... Just like these so called tapes that random people have that are direct to the SEller and exclusive.. Its just hot air in my mind and totally fantasy world... Just my take on it.  must like my associate Mr. Fantasy and all the guys that were dreamers like him.. somehow thinking they could get rich by making phone calls

Thank you Jay

@Lee Goree  

I have managed to review both of your threads. This one and the one placed in the market place. Let me add, trading pools of assets across the board is not a unicorn to me. I have been there and done that. I have traded loan pools and pools of REO. So, out of the gate, I am a bit overly qualified to comment on these ideas. Just to stay the brush off to the moderator that was delivered above who is qualified by the amount of dead end posts he has seen. OP, at least you are pleasant and mannered. (bonus point)

The barrier of entry for brokers such as yourself (which there are thousands of) is a bit of a misunderstanding of how purchasing assets in single or bulk formats really works.  As a for instance, every broker always adds a line/comment to the tune of "no tire kickers" or "principals only" or something to that nature.  These types of statements seem to imply that the broker is attempting to force execution of the party who reviews the data.  Something to the tune of, "well Mr Dion - I showed you loans, you buy loans, so buy my loans I showed you".  Why do I have to do a better job before you do a better job which you are implying by the post you can do? 

As you point out in the OP, it seems to be difficult for you to understand who you are sending data to.  As you mention, it is sent out and circles back to you.  Meaning, who you showed the asset(s) out to is no more skilled in this than you.  Nobody found an actual party to transact with.  This sort of begs the question, if you don't know what a buyer vs a broker looks like and need/hope to delimit by your statement of "no tire-kickers" - how do you know what a Seller looks like?  

I can understand how for an inexperienced person the learning curve is steep and that serves as a natural barrier.  Further, the circles of brokers trying to broker each other do not serve themselves or anyone else well.  Wacky, crazy, improper ideas get created and solidified into the heads of those with no experience who then tend to share the same idea with others.  Blind leading the blind.  

For instance, there is absolutely no such thing as a "Seller (facilitator)".  Period.  End of story.  That is a code word for a broker used by inexperienced brokers.  A "Seller" is the owner of an asset and they are all that matters.  In these asset classes, unless you are directly employed or explicitly have exclusivity (through formal contract) you frankly don't matter.  It is then a risk of my time to deal with you as it could all be a waste of time.  Ergo, the frustrations.

If we build on that idea a little more.  A broker who doesn't know how this really goes, think they know how it goes or hopes that they get lucky - it begs the obvious question, who then bares the workload?  

It can't be the broker who doesn't know.  Thus, it would fall unto the actual Buyer and actual Seller to put the mangled pieces of it all together.  The issue is they are so far apart, provided each are actually present, as often times one is missing from the feedback loop of brokers, that is literally a tiring amount of work to find each other.  It is sad really.  So many brokers, brokering each other, so lost, so much time wasted.  The pyramids could be built many times over with that wasted energy, I am sure.

Then we have the value proposition.  An experienced person specifically like me can walk in, cut through the crap and drill down to the nuts and bolts and figure it all out and if there is a deal to be had put it together.  That then follows trade, settlement, etc.  What is my incentive for moving such a mountain?

In all of these settings it is being asked to pay some percent fee to the broker(s).  I like to call this idea "The World's Most Expensive Email".  Fundamentally, in this story, I would earn your fee for you, so I can buy the assets I had to do all the work on to get to in the first place.  What a bargain for me, right?  

Welcome to the terrible irony.  What is that email worth?  I have never seen or heard of a value proposition in these settings that makes any sense.   Frankly, the broker should really pay the principals.  I just put this all together, you got to see and now you have learned.  The proverbial, teaching you how to fish vs giving you a fish.  So, would you agree to such a thing?  The broker, heck, even the chain of brokers can all chip and pay for my look which comes with no guarantee they will see a transaction and if a transaction does manifest and additional fee would be required from them for the learning experience.  I am of the mindset, that makes more sense than the current proposition.  

An experienced party is NEVER going to fall victim to this circus.  Legitimate new to the space/idea potential parties, usually Buyers, will fall into the trap and get stuck until they get frustrated and walk away condemning the whole thing a unicorn.  It seems to be fairly certain, that it is impossible to do away with the circus.  As mentioned above, illusions of grander seem to be the fuel for that engine.  Grander ideas that are way off base baring in mind who actually moved the mountain.  

From the market place post.  The title implies, I think, a 64.7% strike price on $8.5M in UPB and that seems already inflated.  The assumption is the performing loan concentration of that pool is not significant enough to lift the discount for the non-performing assets in Illinois.  If I was a betting man, the performance is degraded on those assets which are being labeled as performing and the proper pricing is NPL.  So, from 50,000 feet, I am saying there is no deal there it is already over priced and i don't even have to look.

The billion dollar idea often gets passed around in broker circles.  Let me just point out.  You will never, ever tough a legitimate billion dollar portfolio.  A billion dollars trading at a discount is hundreds of millions of dollars in loss.  Let me say that again, "Hundreds of Millions in Loss".  Just who do we think can sustain such events?  

Further, do you know how much work it would be to trade a billion dollars worth of assets?  That is literally thousands of assets.  That is not a mountain, that is a planet.  It takes a team to trade a hundred million.  It would take a group of teams to trade a billion.  As such, big trades will only ever be with big boys who can afford and have the staff and resources.  JP, BOA, Citi, Blackpool, Fortress...list goes not going consider a street broker a viable option for marketing nor transactions.  To attempt to convince yourself otherwise ignoring reality.

As to the "direct-to-seller" relations.  Well, as mentioned above the "Seller (Facilitator)" is not a Seller and not employee of the 'firm' that would own said assets.  To imply that distressed assets is some drive up Burger King window where you can order it your way is also pretty far off base.  

As I look above, this tirade is pretty long.  Every once in a while I tee off on one of these posts.  I guess this one managed to win that spin of the wheel.  While I think OP handled the opposition to the post well not sure any of this will matter.  I realize my reality checks on these matters often fall on deaf ears.  The desire to want to believe trumps logic in these settings.  That is the real unicorn.  These assets do indeed trade.  They are not fire sale cheap and they are not on street when the capital demand is institutional in nature.  That is just contradictory to the reality of what it is, why it is trading and who is trading it.  

Understanding that is really step one in attempting to break into this space.

BTW, I am happy to be paid to look at the deals much like a doctor is paid to diagnose patients.  We can use the money to buy BP staff and moderators lunch.  Maybe even sponsor a BP Convention if the chain is big enough.  Now, that is a win-win-win if you ask me.

Poor Lee, being subjected to that post Dion, that was really long, but on target as to what many are subjected to.

Lee and I have already had brief PMs where she contacted me offering to assist me, I did inquire as to any portfolio WAM and WAC, and she replied that she was "direct" without reference to my inquiry. I believe she is direct Dion and Jon, she seemed to be with me.

Dion, I'd say you could have saved about 300 words there, I can't compete today, I have a bad cold. My point will be short, I just can't type that much today, you got me.

Maybe Lee, you might slice off a small sliver of that billion, say ten million at the UBP, can you give me a ball park of the WAM and WAY that might be possible?

Oh, forgot; @Lee Goree  

@Dion DePaoli  

@Jon Holdman  

Oh wow I can't believe the responses on this thread. I can say so many things, but instead I will simply say thank you for your input.

Seriously have they got @Dion DePaoli  on the podcast yet?  I'd pay money to listen to that.

I have learned more about notes from Dion's posts than... well... yeah.

Whenever I am contacted by someone claiming to be able to introduce me to assets for sale that are not owned by that person, there are two things I need to know.  If the asset is real property, is the intermediary licensed as a real estate broker in the state in which the property is located.  If the assets are not real property, such as notes, businesses, etc. does the intermediary have an executed representation agreement with the actual asset owner (seller).  If the answer is no I need to go no further. 

@Don Konipol  

  I go right back to my Jet fuel brokering analogy.. your right Don  they don't and they won't

whan these tapes and things started coming out in 06 I tried very hard to buy one got funds into escrow 5.5 million ( small dollars it was suppose to be a hand picked IndyMac tape) the address checked out they were in PDX metro  and even the code box's worked.. But no never could close.. money sat there for 45 days and like you said got frustrated and took our marbles and put them back in the sack.. and since then just ignore the I am direct to the mandate and such ... But you got to hand it to those folks at least they are trying.

@Dion DePaoli  

  hopefully folks will understand exactly what your saying as its 1000% the truth.

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I am just wondering if all of you "legit" professionals arrived where you are by just going always by the book, In my 14 year in RE, I have never met anyone that told me the truth from the start. I feel blessed I found the right place.

Thank you all.

Lia Sprigs

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Hi Lisa.........what location?


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