What am I missing?

What am I missing?

New City, NY · Member since 2016 · 47 posts · 7 votes

Please forgive me if this post is naive. 

I have a friend who has been investing in real estate for years. Specifically, he is involved in non-performing loans in the New York and New Jersey areas.  He always has told me how he buys mortgages from the banks at a significant discount, forecloses on the property, then takes the property to auction. He makes it seem so easy.

I've been given the opportunity, through him, to review a portfolio of mortgages being offered from a bank, and to make offers on anything I find interesting - there are hundreds.

The spreadsheet I looked at had the following info:

Property Address

Foreclosure Start Date

Original Balance

Current Balance

Corp Adj

Escrow Adv

Months Dlq

So for instance, here is an example (and the properties span the tri-state area):

55 Main Street, Newark, NJ

Foreclosure Start Date: 10/17/2013

Original Balance: $350,000

Current Balance: $322,000

Corporate Adj: -$5822

Escrow Adv: -$56,918

Months Dlq: 83

He tells me that the bank will probably accept an offer of 50-60% of the current balance (Again, he has done this dozens of times.) For the owner to become current they would have to come up with $322,000 + $5822 + $56,918.  The property is probably valued around $375k. When foreclosed and brought to auction, the loan value and interest and penalties are more than the estimated property value - so I would most likely wind up with the house.

I suppose I just don't get it...what am I missing from this picture?

Please tell me why this is a terrible idea to get involved with.

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Investor · Bryan, TX · Member since 2015 · 31 posts · 6 votes
10y
Podcast #169 explains purchasing notes in some detail. I highly recommend listening to the experiences shared there. He talks about the pros and cons. Specific to your example above, I think that you need to determine your end game for the property. It is probably better to get the person in the property to start paying again, which would produce cash flow for you on new terms that you set that would be more manageable for the homeowner. At face value, if the house is really worth 375k still and you can purchase it for 175k cash by buying the note, I would say sounds like a deal worth investigating further. Otherwise the foreclosure process I am not too familiar with. Hope this helps.
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  • Smithtown, NY · Member since 2016 · 6 posts · 1 vote
    10y

    Buying directly from the bank while the delinquent homeowners still occupy the property? Hmmm... isn't that asking for an issue later? How does that work?

    (Sorry this wasn't an answer to your question.)

  • New City, NY · Member since 2016 · 47 posts · 7 votes
    10y

    In my friend's words, "You own the mortgage, you become the bank. If they don't pay you, foreclose on the property, and evict if necessary."

  • Real Estate Agent · Hillside, NJ · Member since 2016 · 3 posts · 0 votes
    10y

    There are many ways to make money as an investor.  If this is the niche you want go for it..Who wouldn't want direct contact with the banks..Sometime they accept a little of nothing to get rid of the debt. Good for you!!!!!!!!

  • Real Estate Consultant · Bloomfield, NJ · Member since 2010 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

     I can think of a few risks off the top of my head:

    1) Owners could file Bankruptcy and tie you up for years in a payment plan.

    2) you really have to know good neighborhoods in Newark.some neighborhoods are great for strategy comma While others may be a disaster.

    3) There are many cases in Newark and other in the cities where houses become vacant, occupied by drug using squatters and eventually accidentally burn down. So make sure you understand the laws and protect your investment.

  • Wholesaler · Clinton, NJ · Member since 2015 · 18 posts · 1 vote
    10y

    You have to be willing to evict people and pay lawyers to enforce the foreclosure. Good way to make money, but not a nice way.

  • Investor · Bryan, TX · Member since 2015 · 31 posts · 6 votes
    10y
    Podcast #169 explains purchasing notes in some detail. I highly recommend listening to the experiences shared there. He talks about the pros and cons. Specific to your example above, I think that you need to determine your end game for the property. It is probably better to get the person in the property to start paying again, which would produce cash flow for you on new terms that you set that would be more manageable for the homeowner. At face value, if the house is really worth 375k still and you can purchase it for 175k cash by buying the note, I would say sounds like a deal worth investigating further. Otherwise the foreclosure process I am not too familiar with. Hope this helps.
  • Bergen County, NJ · Member since 2014 · 79 posts · 6 votes
    10y

    Matthew W,

    Which bank department do you contact to get the portfolio of motgages?

    Thanks,

    Chris

  • Real Estate Investment Attorney · Kingsville, MD · Member since 2016 · 643 posts · 408 votes
    10y

    @Ibrahim Hughes

          Ibrahim,

            It is very simple. What your friend isn't telling you is the following: When you buy the note you don't want to end up with the house. Here is a simple example. Loan amount is $200,000. Current balance $220,000. You don't care about the retail value of the house. You MUST know from experience attending foreclosure auctions what  an Investor will pay for the house sight unseen at the Courthouse steps. In my scenario, if the property will bring $115,000 at auction you can only pay around $90,000 (if that) for the note because you must pay the foreclosing Attorney and the foreclosure costs to bring it to sale. Nothing else matters except the spread between what you pay for the note and what it will sell for. That is the winning formula Note Buyers use.

          If you are wrong and end up with the House, your costs and headaches will escalate.

         I hope that helps. I would be glad to assist you with any more questions you may have.

         Rich Baer,

         Attorney

  • New City, NY · Member since 2016 · 47 posts · 7 votes
    10y

    @Cody Begg thanks for the info on the Podcast, I'm going to go check it out.

    @Chris Garzino I don't have the actual contact, it is through a friend who does this.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    10y

    @Matthew W.   personally I think this really depends on how deep your pockets are.

    I just cringe thinking of investors who don't have very deep pockets and experience jumping into owner occ Non performing notes.

    These things can go many ways.. and many ways they can go very wrong.

    The only way to buy them is as Rich states at a price that your virtually certain that when it goes to the courthouse steps someone will bid it .. and you make the delta and they inherit the owner and deal with getting them out.

    Now In our states on the West coast this is really not too much of a big deal POST sale.

    But prior to the sale the BK issues are very real. Lender liability suits etc.

    much better to go for vacant props.. in this scenario in my mind.

    The market is telling you something if you as basically a private investor who can cherry pick a tape that there is risk associated that the lender does not want to incur and they wish to transfer the risk to you.

    I see this as income average play.. some will be great some OK and some could be wipe outs.

    you would hate to use most if not all of your investment cash to buy one of these and you get that ONE that flops badly.

    I see this in the auction bizz in our state.. newbie shows up pays far to much for a property.. or even worse buys a second thinking they just bought a first .. and gets wiped out.

    I bought a house 3 years ago.. were this scnerio played out.. guy bought a second had no clue went in and rehab the whole house the first goes to sale 45 days later I buy it. You want to talk about a totally bummed out newbie investor guy lost 150k with no hope of recovery.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    10y

    @Matthew W.  now caveat is if your buying very low value asset notes.. IE paying next to nothing for them ... then who cares if they don't work just throw it away and concentrate on the easy ones.

    But if you in the 6 figure purchase range then in my mind caution is needed on all aspects.

  • New City, NY · Member since 2016 · 47 posts · 7 votes
    10y

    @Jay Hinrichs Thanks for the advice. I agree that vacant properties are probably a better way to go, and some of these might be empty. I'm pouring through the data. 

    I want to take every precaution possible to ensure that I don't make a costly mistake. At the end of the day, I do want to own properties.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    10y

    @Matthew W.  I get the greed factor in all of this .. we are all trying to get the absolute best deal we can.. but RISK=REWARD is alive and well in the non performing note business at the small investor level.

  • New City, NY · Member since 2016 · 47 posts · 7 votes
    10y

    @Jay Hinrichs I don't doubt the risks. I would also rather not put all my eggs in one basket. Huge wins are great, but a lot of smaller wins are also acceptable.

  • Real Estate Investor · Amherst, VA · Member since 2015 · 386 posts · 400 votes
    10y

    The biggest issue is obvious - north east judicial states with potentially long foreclosure times and very expensive litigation. Most investors don't want a note where the average exit is going to take longer than a year (or two in NY).

    Me personally, the only thing I would look at on that tape are vacant houses that would work with reo-to-rental. Which, given NJ taxes and bad winters, would be very few if any of the notes offered.

    Parking that kind of money into one or two loans in the north east is a terrible idea if you don't know what you're doing. Heck if he's your friend shouldn't he be helping you find the one or two diamonds in the rough on that tape?

  • Specialist · Dallas, TX · Member since 2014 · 900 posts · 392 votes
    10y

    While there is money to be made by buying NY & NJ notes, we avoid them like the plague. You do have to factor in the cost and time of foreclosure if you can't get them to work it out or get a deed in lieu. You are most likely looking to spend between $5,000 to $10,000 to foreclose and 3-8 years is not unusual. Also check your taxes to see how many years behind they are. Some years might be sold at auction already and if the redemption period has passed or not. And if they are stubborn and they try to fight it, well, you have a battle royal on your hands.

    We like to bid notes in that 50-60% of UPB range when there is equity, though that is from equity funds. I would think the bank would not sell it that low. We currently are dealing with a damaged home in a reverse mortgage and they will take 95% of assessed value. I don't see huge discounts while the originating bank owns it unless its a real pig that they can't unload.

    We also have to consider rehab costs if you are not going to sell it As-Is. In the past we didn't factor that as well, and look at the notes now similar to buying the property, you need to get it low enough to cover rehab, and the plethora of costs associated with holding/working out the note/mortgage, AND make a Profit! 

    Good luck & keep us posted!

  • Dion DePaoliPro Member
    Real Estate Broker · Northwest Indiana, IN · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    The OP mentions the property is valued at $375k.  That doesn't seem to be true.  If that were the case the loan to value here would be 85%.  The bid price would be higher with 15% equity built into the deal.  The borrower has a way out - sell the property.  The borrower would even get some cash in their pocket. If that value were true we would expect to see a bid price for this greater than marked by 10% to 20%.  Maybe higher depending on the bank.

    Glancing at the address it looks more like this property is somewhere in the $250k range.  So the property is upside down.  The borrower owes more than the property is actually worth.  

    In NPN evaluation the UPB is not a good barometer of the quality of a deal. 60% of UPB where the balance is $322k and the property is closer to $250k is purchasing the loan at 78% of RE value. As mentioned NJ has some longer foreclosure timelines, pushing up to almost 3 years. Thus costs to disposition the asset are going to be pretty high. 22% (+/- $55k) equity is not going to be enough to make the required advances need to process the loan through foreclosure and recover those advances and some amount of principal to make a profit. That is too thin of a margin for that long of a disposition not including any unforeseen delays or additional expenses along the way.

    The likely reality here is the deal does not seem all that attractive.

  • Investor · Orlando, FL · Member since 2014 · 110 posts · 90 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Chris Garzino:

    Matthew W,

    Which bank department do you contact to get the portfolio of motgages?

    Thanks,

    Chris

     Look towards the Loss Mitigation Department. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Lindon, UT · Member since 2015 · 862 posts · 438 votes
    10y

    I agree with @Jay Hinrichs

    I posted this yesterday, but I think it applies:

    DO NOT purchase a real estate asset if you cannot afford to buy the whole thing! It is probably the largest mistake new investors make when getting into real estate! Don't lend in second position if you cannot pay off the first mortgage! Don't buy a tax lien if you cannot afford to get the property, fix it up, hold it, and sell it! Don't buy a nonperforming note because it's inexpensive as you will never have the money to get your equity out!

    I realize that it takes money to buy the whole real estate asset and most people want to make money in real estate investing with little to no money out of their pocket So it is a sensual that you do it in the right order knowing your cash situation.

    Buy real estate assets in this order depending on your abilities:

    1. Turnkey rental properties with no loan

    2. Turnkey rental properties with a conventional loan

    3. Turnkey rental properties with a private money loan

    4. Turnkey rental properties with a hard money loan

    5. Performing notes with cash

    6. Tax liens with cash

    7. Nonperforming notes with cash

    8. Land banking

    I would be happy to share some of my experiences with anyone who is interested in investing in real estate. 

  • Smithtown, NY · Member since 2016 · 6 posts · 1 vote
    10y

    Listened to podcast#169. (As recommended by Cody Begg. Thx) Lots of good information, (after the first five minutes, where they just joke around) It touches briefly on some pros and cons of purchasing notes. Not enough to truly clarify anything, but enough to make you greedy to find out new information you didn't think to ask before. Its a good way in so skim if you want to. 

  • New City, NY · Member since 2016 · 47 posts · 7 votes
    10y

    @Darren Eady thanks for putting together that list, I am making note of it.

    Can you please explain further why I wouldn't be able to get my equity out from a non-performing loan? Assuming that the loan is the 1st mortgage, it is purchased at a big enough discount to the property value, and I'm willing to wait through the process to acquire the property? Honest question, I'm just trying to understand every angle.

  • Smithtown, NY · Member since 2016 · 6 posts · 1 vote
    10y
    Originally posted by @Patrick Desjardins:

    The biggest issue is obvious - north east judicial states with potentially long foreclosure times and very expensive litigation. Most investors don't want a note where the average exit is going to take longer than a year (or two in NY).

    Me personally, the only thing I would look at on that tape are vacant houses that would work with reo-to-rental. Which, given NJ taxes and bad winters, would be very few if any of the notes offered.

    Parking that kind of money into one or two loans in the north east is a terrible idea if you don't know what you're doing. Heck if he's your friend shouldn't he be helping you find the one or two diamonds in the rough on that tape?

     My question is... is it 'illegal' to approach the homeowner and make and offer/agreement to buy them out , or let them know that you will be purchasing their mortgage note from thier bank and that you would like to come to agreement or settlement with them before anything goes through. 

    Is that wrong to do? 

    Is getting a signed contract stating that the curr homeowners will be leaving the property after a 15-30day period with a small buyout; legal before seeking the note?

    Is it legal, after you have the note?

  • Rental Property Investor · Lindon, UT · Member since 2015 · 862 posts · 438 votes
    10y

    @Matthew W.

    I'll explain.  Let's say you purchase the non-performing note and you are forced to evict the owner/tenant because you cannot work out a deal with the current owner.  You'll need to pay for an eviction, you'll have hold costs throughout the process, which may take a few months to a year while your money is tied up.  Then you may get the eviction and foreclosure through to find out the tenant was so angry, they trashed their own home on the way out and there is $100k damage to repair.  

    Now you have additional hold time and expenses while you come up with the rest of the funds out of pocket, because you can't find the money from a bank on a distressed property.  Then you work with a contractor that doesn't do all they say they will and the rehab costs $150k instead of what you were thinking.  

    Then you find a realtor and sell the property - HOPEFULLY still at a gain.  If you didn't have the additional $200k to make this thing work, you would be stuck with no one to lend to you and not enough cash in your pocket to get the potential equity out of this deal.  This is why I say, DO NOT purchase a real estate asset if you cannot afford to buy the whole thing!

    Performing notes will not give you the same potential 40% return a non-performing note MIGHT give you, but it will produce a solid 12% annual return with few moving parts and none of the risk mentioned above.  Performing notes also do not have the same potential for losses that non-performing notes do.  

    Non-performing notes are NOT my business.  I create and sell PERFORMING mortgage notes.  I don't mean to upset any non-performing note buyers or sellers in writing this. Maybe some of them could paint a much rosier picture of their industry than I could.  

  • Queen Creek, AZ · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    @Darren Eady hit the nail on the head.  

    We just had a FC sale confirmed yesterday on a condo in Chicago and now have a 30 day waiting period.  We boarded this loan in July of 14.  so it will be almost 2 years to just to get the property.  In this case we are lucky the borrower's nephew is living in the property so it is maintained and the family wants to buy the propetrty so we are not on the hook for a 20k renovation and then paying realtor fees to sell......  This will be nicely profitable for us but it has been a long sled and we have been lucky.  Pricing went up right after we bought this and we shifted strategy to things other then Non Performing.

    Bob

  • Dana WhickerPro Member
    Investor · Fernandina Beach, FL · Member since 2014 · 557 posts · 374 votes
    10y

    @Matthew W. You have had some of the best minds in this space that post on BP respond to your OP on the first day. That's why this community is so awesome. You gotta love it.

    I suggest you keep on reading, keep studying. At some point you will jump in, and you find a lot of people on this site promoting the "just do it" type of approach. That works in some areas of REI, sometimes.

    HOWEVER, in the arena of NPN investing I would say no, don't just do it. Read, study, learn from the mistakes of others, then, if you have the bankroll and the stomach for it, then do it.

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