Note Investing Rules of Thumb

Note Investing Rules of Thumb

Chicago, IL · Member since 2017 · 32 posts · 9 votes

I was wondering what some rules of thumb are that people use when evaluating note investing opportunities to narrow the focus. Obviously these would only be guidelines but I'm curious what others use to limit the scope of their search. Some ideas that came to my mind were things like:

1) Borrower's credit score over XX

2) Borrower's equity in the property (something like XX% of principal having been paid off)--this would support the "emotional equity" argument that I've seen around

3) Interest rate over XX (gives wiggle room for a lower rate for a loan mod)

4) Senior status needing to be current (if 2nd lien)

5) Needs to earn over XX% of a returns (IRR, ROI, etc)

Do people use any of these?  If so, what is the rule and how did you come up with it?

What other rules of thumb do people consider?

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Wayne SnellPro Member
Londonderry NH & Miami, FL · Member since 2014 · 174 posts · 238 votes
9y

I will second Gail's comment. I keep hearing about how hard NPNs are and yet I was able to quit my full-time VP of Global Software Marketing job over a year ago, and somehow I am still eating. We have 300 notes. Are they work? Yes. Can you get burned? Yes if you don't know what you are doing. Should you avoid them? Yes - so I can buy more.... 

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  • Investor · Broomfield, CO · Member since 2016 · 12 posts · 1 vote
    9y

    @Dan Deppen I'm pretty sure @Brady Durr is going for that on Non-Performing Notes.  If it were performing, you wouldn't need "three exit strategies" right?

  • Investor · Broomfield, CO · Member since 2016 · 12 posts · 1 vote
    9y

    @Scott Carson and @Jay Hinrichs if I can get 12-15% for very little work (Performing) and 20% for full-time work (NPN), wouldn't it be smart to jump into the Performing 1sts initially? And what about being a buyer of recently performing to juice the returns a little bit?

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    9y

    12% is doable in the Hml world. U will get frequent payoffs so pipeline is important 

    Non performance notes are of course more complicated and can create greater than 20%.  Just depends on what u want to work on and how much capital your deploying 

  • Note Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2012 · 602 posts · 357 votes
    9y

    It all depends on your time available, how much private capital you have, and your experience...

  • Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    9y
    Todd Walker - I have recommended to many who have never bought a note before to buy a performing note and build those relationships with servicing companies, collateral review companies and other vendors in the business. The biggest learning curve I had when I bought my first note was not figuring out the numbers on buying the note but the O.S. Moment on what to do after you got it under agreement and the due diligence and getting it boarded. The challenge is there are a lot of people out there touting 30%+ percent returns and newbies see that and think they can do it and go after the sexy non performers versus the singles (performers) and doubles (spotty paying non performers). Not to say you can't get high returns - but people fall into the HGTV world of seeing people make all this money and there is a big difference between what someone says on the TV/internet and reality.
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  • Steve HodgdonPro Member
    Investor · Novato, CA · Member since 2015 · 433 posts · 321 votes
    9y
    @Michael Rosenson Your bio says you're young, a CPA, and looking for long term property ownership. Which is It? notes? Real estate? The best investment is always in yourself. Do you have a mentor or accountability partner? A tribe? Go to local REIA meetings. Pay attention to the guys with Teslas.
  • Chicago, IL · Member since 2017 · 32 posts · 9 votes
    9y

    @Steve Hodgdon Currently notes, followed by real estate once I'm ready to move (with a plan to "house hack").  Looks like I need to update my profile!

    No mentor or accountability partner yet, although I've started networking and making some connections in the industry so hopefully those will continue to flourish! I plan on attending one of the note conferences (either Note Expo or Paper Source depending on if/when I can get the days off work) to develop even more of these relationships. And there's a local REIA meeting in my area this week that I was planning on attending that I've been looking forward to for a while so hopefully I'll enjoy it!

    And with respect the guys with the Teslas, I'm more interested in financial freedom than shiny toys--to each their own!   :)

  • Steve HodgdonPro Member
    Investor · Novato, CA · Member since 2015 · 433 posts · 321 votes
    9y

    @Dan Deppen In our ROI calculator, we target 20% ROI. Might as well plan for success!

  • Investor · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2016 · 41 posts · 48 votes
    9y

    @Michael Rosenson  Have you checked out note camp 4.0 Oct 12-15?  You can attend a note conference without leaving your house and a fraction of the note expo cost.  Check out @Scott Carson at weclosenotes to get your seat and you get the replays for FREE!  Hope to see you at note camp and note expo.

  • Elkton, MD · Member since 2017 · 12 posts · 0 votes
    9y

    Hi @ Wayne Snell!

    loving your input on this thread, would it be possible to send me the link to the video you mentioned?  I'm a newbie trying to get a grasp of the note business and would love any insight on how to sort through a tape in an efficient fashion.

  • Real Estate Investor · Amherst, VA · Member since 2015 · 386 posts · 400 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Tim Rothermel:

    Hi @ Wayne Snell!

    loving your input on this thread, would it be possible to send me the link to the video you mentioned?  I'm a newbie trying to get a grasp of the note business and would love any insight on how to sort through a tape in an efficient fashion.

     I'm not the great Wayne Snell, but this is a frequent question, and here's how I do it.

    1) Make sure every field in the excel spreadsheet is sortable/filter-able.

    2) If there is a price attached to the notes, filter out everything that is out of your price range. No point in looking at a 60k note if you have 25k. If there is no price attached to them, just look at the BPO/AVM value and remove notes that are significantly above your 25k budget.

    3) Go into the state column and filter everything except the 3-4 states you picked when you made your note investing plan. This usually removes a huge chunk of the list and makes it more digestible.

    4) In the property type column (if there's one) remove the things you don't like. Me personally, I don't buy notes on manufactured housing. You can filter out condos, townhouses, duplexes, whatever doesn't fit your strategy.

    5) There is sometimes a column saying whether the house is vacant, occupied, or has a tenant in it. Again, filter things out based on your strategy.

    6) I personally filter out houses that are far away from main cities. Suburbs are okay but if it's like an hour away from a major urban center, everything gets tougher (due diligence, finding qualified people on the ground, houses sell slow etc)

    Just doing the 5 things above can often bring your list down from an overwhelming 100+ notes to maybe 5-20. It's much easier analyzing 5 notes than 100.

  • Real Estate Investor · Suisun City, CA · Member since 2014 · 5 posts · 1 vote
    9y
    Hello my I have the link to your video.
  • Investor · Denton, TX · Member since 2017 · 3 posts · 2 votes
    9y

    My rule of thumb would be to be careful who you consider doing Joint Ventures with. If you'd like to hear about my experience, you can message me. 

  • Hazel Crest, IL · Member since 2017 · 4 posts · 0 votes
    9y

    Hello Christopher, 

    Thinking about getting into Real Estates Notes investing and not sure where to start from.  Do you know of any program or website that I can go to for necessary and useful infomations

  • Hazel Crest, IL · Member since 2017 · 4 posts · 0 votes
    9y

    @ Michael Rosenson, am in the south suburb, Illinois, where are the Notes conferences that you were talking about, maybe I can attend them too.  

  • Linda HastingsPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Stockdale, TX · Member since 2017 · 285 posts · 202 votes
    9y
  • Hazel Crest, IL · Member since 2017 · 4 posts · 0 votes
    9y

    Thank you Linda, will check out the websites.  Appreciate it.

  • Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2013 · 68 posts · 15 votes
    8y

       Wooooowsers !!!  @Linda Hastings   Thanks for the referal to -

    https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/70/topics/432...

    posted by Kishore P.  7 months ago   Posts like yours & His is what makes BP so Great !!!

       Thanks Again , Mark G

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