Not a deal gone bad, just not a deal: need advice!

Not a deal gone bad, just not a deal: need advice!

Investor · Tewksbury, MA · Member since 2016 · 16 posts · 1 vote
Hi All, I'm in the military, at my first assignment. As a lot of mil folks have probably heard, I got the advice/idea given to me to start purchasing a house at each duty assignment. So I went and purchased a home to live in & rent rooms out while I live there, to eventually rent the place out after I move. The idea was simple enough, so I thought, and I got myself a house with a zero down VA loan. I had no clue about real cash flow on a property, about capital expenditures, etc. etc. had never heard of bigger pockets, my only resource was a local real estate agent I was working with who knew about VA loans. You don't know what you don't know, so as you can guess, I now have a nice relatively expensive house in Massachusetts that will negative cash flow when I leave.... unless I can somehow get someone to overpay (obviously not wanting to do that to someone) It was move in/rentable condition when I bought it, fresh paint and all. So I paid top dollar for it (it's a sellers market here in Mass/Greater Boston area) I think I made about 50 offers on places that were below or at asking price, some even over, and hardly got a 'best and final' request back; they were all getting over asking price. So I ended up paying over asking price for this place just to get a house out here. Currently I'm not necessarily losing money on it since I'm living there. I'm just not sure what to do when I leave in the next year and a half. I will have very little equity in the place by time I leave so I will lose money on the sale. (If I speculate, the price of the house is estimated to go up 2% by next year so I may be able to come close to breaking even on a sale, but again only on speculation so I'm not counting on it) I should be able to rent it out and break even if I manage the place myself. I know I don't want to invest in Massachusetts long term. I want to invest back in my home state of Michigan. As for my general goal in real estate I do want to have multiple buy and holds. Do I take the loss now and get out when I move next year, or hold onto it and let the equity build so I (hopefully) don't lose money on the sale in a few years? Or are there better options I'm not considering, like holding onto it for longer? On a positive note, getting this house really got me into real estate, investing, and changing my mindset on money (thanks to Rich Dad, Poor Dad) Any advice would be truly appreciated! -Branden
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Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 32 posts · 16 votes
10y

Hi Branden,

I was a Rich Dad student too. I'm grateful that I got to quit my job 2 years after I started investing. Now they invite me to their bus tours to share experiences and how to succeed in any market. So congratulations in taking action.

There are some good recommendations here. From re-purpose to evaluate alternatives to even sell. I have few questions for you: What's your real goal: cashflow? Are you planning to keep using your VA loans in the upcoming after you moved? Are you planning to buy and hold?

I'm asking that because you mentioned that you don't want to invest on this market for the long-term but Michigan sounds good to you for buy and hold.

So, let me share an alternative that has not been mentioned yet. 

Apparently, you are looking for cashflow. The rents on this area might be breaking even with your mortgage. Here is what I will do. I will do a Lease with Option to Purchase for 2 years  tenant-buyer. The tenant buyer will pay a higher rent, they will give you a downpayment non-reimbursable and they will pay x price or the Fair Market Value at the time of closure - whichever is greater. A lease option will give you a higher rent that any other alternative (at least you do air bnb -which requires the right market for it). This will cover your mortgage and you will cashflow for 2 years, you will make money in the downpayment, and it might give you a little equity or get advantage of potential appreciation. There are many details that you need to know about Lease Option and Tenant Buyers but explore this.

Also, since you are looking to buy and hold - since you will be renting the property in boston then when you sell you can do a 1031 exchange for cashflowing properties in Michigan.

Let me know if you have questions.

Have a nice day!

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  • Real Estate Investor · Dracut, MA · Member since 2011 · 104 posts · 35 votes
    10y

    Hi Brandon,

    Tewksbury is in a good location, close to Rte 495 & 93.

    What are your expenses mortgage, insurance, etc verse the amount of rent you can receive?

    www.rentometer.com  add in vacancy factor.

    When I sell properties I use a flat fee listing service. $99 to get on the MLS and I give selling broker 2%. So if you were to sell your house for $300,000, you could save a little over $9K at closing.

    Paul Donoghue

  • Boca Raton, FL · Member since 2016 · 145 posts · 67 votes
    10y

    @Paul Donoghue, can I ask who do you use in MA as a Flat Fee listing service?

  • Real Estate Investor · Dracut, MA · Member since 2011 · 104 posts · 35 votes
    10y

    Hi Jorge,

    www.omegalistings.com for MA & NH $199 for 6 months

    http://SimplyListMe.com for MA $99 for 6 months

    I have tried them both and prefer Lisa Berry at simply list me and she saves me even more $$$$$.

    Paul

  • Real Estate Agent · Boston, MA · Member since 2015 · 319 posts · 80 votes
    10y

    @Branden Cunningham you mentioned purchasing a house at each duty assignment. Would you attempt to do that with a VA loan each time? I remember hearing some sort of restriction with VA loans, possibly only having one at a time. If that's the case, maybe it would be best to cut your losses on this one, take what you have learned and purchase a much better deal at your next assignment.

  • Investor · Marshall, VA · Member since 2015 · 87 posts · 24 votes
    10y

    @Branden Cunningham Are there things that you can do to force appreciation or cash flow? Or reduce expenses for that matter?

    Not knowing all of the numbers, here are some basic thoughts that you may or may not have considered:

    -Are you at or near the market rents for your area?  If not, can you raise the rent to make sure that you cash flow?

    -Can you re-purpose one of the units into a vacation rental, air bnb, office space...etc?

    -Can you have the units individually metered? (if they are not already, and you are covering the utilities)

    -Are there additional services that you can provide to raise the rents?  Providing Wifi...etc and raise the rents above what your cost will be.

    -If you are looking to exit, can you bring in another investor that can assume a VA loan? If so, that should clear up the amount that you can have secured on your next property.

    -If you are breaking even now, why would you have a negative cash flow when you leave? (PM fees?)

    -If you are moving to an area where your BAH will change on the positive side, maybe find a roommate (or several) and rent out a place together and use the excess BAH to help cover expenses. (I mean as a way to cover capital expenses that you didn't plan for at the onset, not to cover negative cashflow indefinitely) At least, until you have enough set aside to feel comfortable.  Or, just keep roommates until you set aside enough to put down on your next investment.

    Anyway, just some thoughts.

    Dan

  • Investor · Tewksbury, MA · Member since 2016 · 16 posts · 1 vote
    10y

    @Paul Donoghue 
    With just my mortgage, insurance, and taxes are 2300 a month. I've seen houses similar to mine up for rent around 2700, but the rentometer is something like 2300-2400 high end, and zillow (for whatever its worth) is also saying 2400 a month rent. 

    Even at 2700, I'll be breaking even without accounting for capx. 

  • Investor · Tewksbury, MA · Member since 2016 · 16 posts · 1 vote
    10y

    @Patrick Wheeler
    I wouldn't necessarily do a VA loan each time, I also don't think I'm going to go that route. I'd rather invest in a concentrated area in Michigan. Not worth the hassle (to me) try and manage properties (or property management companies) all across the US.

    But yes, the VA backed loan caps at something just over 100k. They will back as much as 4x that amount, but won't back another loan if your over the 100k threshold I believe. 

    And I'm thinking that's the best route, cutting my losses, trying to sell the house without losing money on closing costs. 

  • Investor · Tewksbury, MA · Member since 2016 · 16 posts · 1 vote
    10y

    @Dan Call
    I'm not sure if there is anyway I can force appreciation, just not sure the market will support it. I'm thinking of redoing the kitchen myself, but not sure if it will really bring a whole lot of appreciation since I bought the place pretty high as it is. 

    Everything I've seen puts my place renting at 2400, I've seen some going for 2700 near by, but really I would need something like 3k a month to cash flow.

    It's a single family (3B2B) house, so no units. 

    Not sure if I could bring another investor... something to look into. Or a non-investor, someone to assume the loan so I don't pay closing costs maybe (not sure of the legalities) but it's a zero down loan at a great rate backed by the VA... maybe something a young family would be really into and if I remember correctly I don't think a person has to be military/gov to assume a VA loan... would have to research that.

    I'm not necessarily breaking even... I'm just using my BAH up on my housing.. but when I move most likely it will be a cut in BAH since Mass/Boston is the second highest BAH for areas I'm eligible to go.

    Thanks for the suggestions, I'll definitely look into someone assuming the loan as another alternative. 

  • Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 6k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    @Branden Cunningham, here's your chance to find out what "your" Realtor is made of. List it with the same Realtor. You said it's a "sellers market", so (ask THEM), why should you be losing on the Sale price (other than unnecessary personalized improvements you may have made)?

    You are likely NOT trying to find another investor, but rather, an owner-occupier (who you were probably competing against in the first place - otherwise, you were SCAMMED by the Realtor)!?

    Any loss on your Sold price vs your Bought price should really be borne by that Realtor!

    Especially in a rising/sellers market!...

  • Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 32 posts · 16 votes
    10y

    Hi Branden,

    I was a Rich Dad student too. I'm grateful that I got to quit my job 2 years after I started investing. Now they invite me to their bus tours to share experiences and how to succeed in any market. So congratulations in taking action.

    There are some good recommendations here. From re-purpose to evaluate alternatives to even sell. I have few questions for you: What's your real goal: cashflow? Are you planning to keep using your VA loans in the upcoming after you moved? Are you planning to buy and hold?

    I'm asking that because you mentioned that you don't want to invest on this market for the long-term but Michigan sounds good to you for buy and hold.

    So, let me share an alternative that has not been mentioned yet. 

    Apparently, you are looking for cashflow. The rents on this area might be breaking even with your mortgage. Here is what I will do. I will do a Lease with Option to Purchase for 2 years  tenant-buyer. The tenant buyer will pay a higher rent, they will give you a downpayment non-reimbursable and they will pay x price or the Fair Market Value at the time of closure - whichever is greater. A lease option will give you a higher rent that any other alternative (at least you do air bnb -which requires the right market for it). This will cover your mortgage and you will cashflow for 2 years, you will make money in the downpayment, and it might give you a little equity or get advantage of potential appreciation. There are many details that you need to know about Lease Option and Tenant Buyers but explore this.

    Also, since you are looking to buy and hold - since you will be renting the property in boston then when you sell you can do a 1031 exchange for cashflowing properties in Michigan.

    Let me know if you have questions.

    Have a nice day!

  • Wholesaler · Detroit, MI · Member since 2016 · 1 post · 0 votes
    10y

    I agree with Jennifer on the Lease with an option to purchase.  I think that's your best bet.  your tenant/buyer will be paying your mortgage, taxes and insurance with some cash flow for your

    pocket. 

    Good Luck and thank you for your service!!!

  • Investor · Marshall, VA · Member since 2015 · 87 posts · 24 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Branden Cunningham:

    @Dan Call
    I'm not sure if there is anyway I can force appreciation, just not sure the market will support it. I'm thinking of redoing the kitchen myself, but not sure if it will really bring a whole lot of appreciation since I bought the place pretty high as it is. 

    Everything I've seen puts my place renting at 2400, I've seen some going for 2700 near by, but really I would need something like 3k a month to cash flow.

    "It's a single family (3B2B) house, so no units. 

    Not sure if I could bring another investor... something to look into. Or a non-investor, someone to assume the loan so I don't pay closing costs maybe (not sure of the legalities) but it's a zero down loan at a great rate backed by the VA... maybe something a young family would be really into and if I remember correctly I don't think a person has to be military/gov to assume a VA loan... would have to research that.

    I'm not necessarily breaking even... I'm just using my BAH up on my housing.. but when I move most likely it will be a cut in BAH since Mass/Boston is the second highest BAH for areas I'm eligible to go.

    Thanks for the suggestions, I'll definitely look into someone assuming the loan as another alternative. 

    @Branden Cunningham, Sorry I missed that. I assumed based on your situation that you used a VA loan to purchase a 3 or 4 Plex, which is why I made those comments. Let me know if I can help.

    Best of Luck

  • Investor · Tewksbury, MA · Member since 2016 · 16 posts · 1 vote
    10y

    @Brent Coombs
    Makes sense, He's a good guy, he was really open with the whole process when we went through it so I'm sure he would have no problem working with me again and taking a reduced commission if needed. Would never hurt to ask anyway, if I decide to go that route.

    Thanks for the info!

  • Investor · Tewksbury, MA · Member since 2016 · 16 posts · 1 vote
    10y

    @Jennifer Maldonado
    Thanks, lots of great info.

    To answer your questions: Yes my end goal is cashflow. I will definitely take advantage of my VA loan when and if I can, but I know I'll have to use other methods of financing deals especially once I eventually get 4 or 5 places. And yes, planning on having buy and holds. Will also explore other venues as I gain more experience, but initially & while holding a relatively well paying full time job I want to strictly invest and not work in real estate.

    I didn't even think of a lease option, I think it's a great alternative that could work for my situation and I think I could definitely make it cashflow if I do it right. I need to read up on rent to own. Not sure what the laws are (if any) with lease options and my VA loan. Have you ever had any experience with the VA loan or know if there are laws on this? I'm trying to find a real estate attorney to work with to help with these types of questions (and to ensure the lease/option comply with Massachusetts laws). 

    I've thought about the 1031 up when I sell, just not sure its feasible with the VA loan. I've been trying to dig and see what the laws are on it, there don't seem to be any I can find right away, so it may be legal to 1031 up with my VA. The other problem would be that I'm at the max end of my VA loan, I think I'm only under about 10k-15k what the max loan amount is so that would add an additional challenge when finding a place to move up to (I'm also limited to a 4-unit max home with the VA loan.)

    I always have a ton of questions haha, trying to learn as much as I can. I'll do my best to google out the easy ones, thanks for the offer I'm sure I'll have more for ya soon if you really don't mind!

  • Investor · Tewksbury, MA · Member since 2016 · 16 posts · 1 vote
    10y

    @Dan Call 
    No worries, I would have if I had known more about real estate investing when I got the place, but unfortunately I did not. Still good comments though. I'll definitely be using my VA loan (when I free it up) on a 3 or 4 Plex next time around!

  • Dave FosterBusiness Member
    Qualified Intermediary for 1031 Exchanges · St. Petersburg, FL · Member since 2013 · 9k+ posts · 9k+ votes
    10y

    @Branden Cunningham, you're in a bit of a pickle trying to use a 1031 on this property immediately.  The issue right up front is that the property is your primary residence and so not eligible for 1031 treatment.  To do a 1031 it must be investment property.  The other properties you end up turning into rentals as you go through your active duty postings would qualify.  But not this one up front until you move out, put a renter in, etc .

    You may find that VA restrictions cause some of the same issues if they will only lend on primary residences. But you may have an opportunity that you can discuss with your accountant. If you live in a property you own for 2 out of the previous 5 years you can sell it and take the first $250K ($500K if married) in profit tax free. But you have to have lived in it for 2 out of the last 5 - unless you meet one of the few exceptions and a job related transfer event that requires you to move is one of those exceptions. If you meet that exception and you've lived in the house for a year you could take half of the 250/500 exemption.

    That may not help you much if there's not much profit there but should allow you to at least break even without a tax sting if you want to sell.

    The 1031 Investor5137 Reviews
  • Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 32 posts · 16 votes
    10y

    Hi Branden,

    1. I don't think there is any clauses in the loan that will trigger due on clause if you rent the property. You might want to verify with your mortgage advisor what's the clauses when y were written in your loan if you are not occupying the property. It might requires a minimum years living in the property but I'm not sure - you have to check your terms in the loan. Yes - check with a real estate lawyer for lease option. States are very different.
    2. For the VA loan - loans are assigned to owner occupy only and residential (that's why you are limited for the 4 units. 5 units is considered commercial property. For you to use your VA loan for the 4 units, you will have to live in one and rent the other ones.
    3. The 1031 exchange doesn't have to deal anything with your financing but if you have a loan in place, you have to replace that min amount plus the extra cash you get to use the 1031 exchange. Clarification: 1031 exchange do not apply only to investment property but business and types of investments. It's a misunderstanding between many investors. https://www.irs.gov/uac/like-kind-exchanges-under-...           
    4. For Dave Foster perspective - here is where you need to consult with a 1031 exchange expert and accountant who are the really experts on these stuff: you bought this property with the primary use of owner occupy. If you lease the property with option to purchase for  2 years, I'm not sure if it will qualify to exchange as investment property (like-by-like). I'm not sure f it will trigger any clauses in the loan. Talk to the mortgage person, the accountant and the lawyer. Also, if it doesn't work for rental and lease option then you might want to consider sell in a regular way to take advantages of the exceptions of 250K. Since you bought the property before getting married, you might want to talk to your accountant because that doesn't mean that you get 500K exception right away.

    Have a nice day!

  • Investor · Tewksbury, MA · Member since 2016 · 16 posts · 1 vote
    10y

    @Dave Foster

    Thanks for the helpfull info

  • Investor · Tewksbury, MA · Member since 2016 · 16 posts · 1 vote
    10y

    @Jennifer Maldonado

    Thanks a ton, again, for all the insightful info. I think I have a pretty decent way forward now to check some of these options out. 

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