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All Forum Posts by: Dave Kennedy

Dave Kennedy has started 40 posts and replied 243 times.

Post: Not Enough Votes? Market Tanks . . .

Dave KennedyPosted
  • Real Estate Investor
  • Georgetown, MA
  • Posts 250
  • Votes 6

Wow....

Markets first reaction was a 200 pt drop in 45 secons. Down 705 pts.

Its bounced back a bit.

Down down 4.2% Nadaq 6.12%!

That is substaintial!

Post: Government's Financial Rescue Plan, Will It Energize The Weak Real Estate Market?

Dave KennedyPosted
  • Real Estate Investor
  • Georgetown, MA
  • Posts 250
  • Votes 6

Interesting....I didnt see that info before.

I was just taking the data for those top 20 markets and the composite and growing them a 6% (which I heard from multiple places its been the national average for some time).

So I took the bench mark of 100 in the year 2000 and grew it. Then compared it to the actual readings they posted on a month by month basis.

That 6% number could have been determined by when the market was at its peak...thus affecting the actual long term appreciation which looks like its no more the 3-3.5% as you pointed out.

If thats the case and you use 3.5% growth the market is still about 25% overvalued using the composite index.

Bad news for those hoping the bottom is here.

Post: Government's Financial Rescue Plan, Will It Energize The Weak Real Estate Market?

Dave KennedyPosted
  • Real Estate Investor
  • Georgetown, MA
  • Posts 250
  • Votes 6

Jon makes sense.

I think that 6% rate I used just comes from what I have read and heard. I want to say that its the avearge appreciation since 60's or something...I can't recall. It certainly isn't pre-depression era.

So that could be why your rate of appreciation is so much lower.

So you are saying that real estate appreciation barely outpaces inflation? Thats depressing.

Post: Government's Financial Rescue Plan, Will It Energize The Weak Real Estate Market?

Dave KennedyPosted
  • Real Estate Investor
  • Georgetown, MA
  • Posts 250
  • Votes 6
Originally posted by Jon Holdman:
If this is done like the RTC bailouts, this new government entity would take over the bad debts, turn them into REOs, and sell them as packages. I posted a description of the RTC process in another post. They did a total of 17 packages ranging from about $1B to $116M. However, unlike banks just selling REOs or bulk REO packages (if that actually happens), the RTC retained an equity interest in the properties. So, when they were sold the RTC received a cut of the profits. About half, if I'm understanding correctly. While that would reduce the possible returns for folks like us, it allows the feds to recover some of their investment.

If I could buy a REO from a bank, have the bank retain an interest, and have the bank provide financing, which the RTC did, I would certainly be interested. Its no different than any other equity partner in a deal.

Frankly, no, I don't think its "fair" to just adjust everyone's loans. The current plans may be flawed, but I think the concept is valid. Help people who have the ability to retain their homes keep them. And, yes, have the government keep some interest in those properties. Individuals shouldn't be able to get bailed out, then turn around a pocket all the profit no more than big corps. (And, the heads of FM and FM should be in PRISON, not collecting fat golden parachutes.)

People who have no ability to pay for their properties, even with assistance, should lose them and move on. If they don't have the ability to keep them, pumping money into those deals is a band-aid-on-a-bullet-wound approach. It just wastes a band-aid that might actually help someone else. And, yes, I do realize I'm talking about real families being put out of their houses.

People who are in a position to make their payments should not receive assistance either. That's just a flat out gift from the government. Which means its coming from you and me. Or, more likely, our children.

The real crux of the government actions is to try to unstick the bound up credit markets. The falling housing prices are an effect of the changes in the credit market, just like the dramatic and unprecedented runup in prices what a direct consequence of an extremely liberal lending environment. There's still a lot of air in that bubble in many places, so still lots of falling to do. The government is NOT going to be able to stop that. They might, just might, keep prices from completely tanking, and falling way below the long term trend. If you look at the long term Case-Shiller data, you'll see that's exactly what happened after WWI. Prices went from one trend line to a lower trend line. It wasn't until post WWII that prices shifted back to a higher trend. Had the lending environment remained loose, we would have settled to some new, higher long term trend line. Appreciation would have gone back to the long term, inflation driven trend, with the 5-7 year cycles the veteran investors describe. But, we now see that environment was false and unsustainable. So, now we need to get back to something more the pre-bubble times.

(I would like to find a more up-to-date version of that graphic. The peak of that graph was 206.52 in July 2006. The most recent value is 167.69 as of June 2008. That's a 19% drop. However, if you say 110 is the baseline we're headed back to, then we still have a long ways to go.)

Trouble is, all the people with money have it tied up in investments that have much lower values than they though. So, there's really much less money floating around in the system than we all thought. People who's houses are worth less than than they were are just the tip of the iceberg. In reality, people, towns, and countries who bought into this bubble thought they had $5B in the "bank", but now find they have only $2B. So, they're very protective of their remaining money, just like you would be, and like many people were after the dot com crash.

If nobody is willing to make any loans, we'll be back to the post-WWI lending environment. We won't settle back to 110 on that graph, we'll be back to 70. That will be a 65% fall from the peak of the bubble, and a 35% fall from pre-bubble prices. There will be very few sales of properties because most people can't get a loan at all. Those who can will need to save up 20%, 30% or more for a down payment, and have excellent credit and very low DTIs. Lenders will demand high rates. Prices will fall dramatically. That house I sold in Bakersfield in 1999 for $240K, and that went up to $600K in the bubble will fall back to $240K. Or, $200K. And factoring in inflation, it will only be worth $160K in 1999 dollars.

So, I really dislike this whole bailout. I really, really dislike that executives of these big companies are going to walk away with big bonuses and the worker bees will end up with their pensions and investments devastated. Just like all the Enron employees. But, I don't see an alternative to some sort of bailout.

Jon if you were to use the composite index from that Case-Shiller link and grow it at 6% a year(supposedly the long term growth rate of RE in the US).

I used 2000 as a baseline where the composite index is 100.

Surprisingly if we grew at 6% a year the composite in June 08 should be 165.49 and its 167.69 only 1.3% above where it should be.

That might be a good indication that prices finally have come down to reasonable levels at least when looking at the 20 markets as a composite.

With this same analysis you can see the biggest gap in reality vs 6% trend was Oct 2005 - June 2006 where we were about 59-60 pts on the scale higher which equates to about 40-42% overvalued in that time frame. We have clearly come down substaintially.

I am actually encouraged looking at this, however maybe 2000 isnt far enough back to use as a baseline? But I am going from where there Composite index started track, so that is all I can use.

Using this same analysis, a few of my caculations:

PHX - Currently 7% UNDER valued after being 55% OVER in May 2006..Huge change!
Los A - Currently 18% OVER valued after being 87% OVER in June 2006
San Diego - Currently 6% OVER valued after being 78% OVER in July 2005
San Fran 3% UNDER value after being 53% OVER in Oct 2005
Denver 20% UNDER value after never really being over during the bubble. They outpace normal growth by 10% in 2001 and then have been slowing trending down since to the point where during the true bubble they really didn't grow. At least thats how it looks in my calculations.
D.C. - 20% OVER after being 74% OVER in Nov 2005
Miami - 15% OVER after being a WHOPPING 90% OVER in Apr 2006
Boston - 2% UNDER after being 32% OVER May 2005
Detriot - Being pumpled at 44% UNDER
Vegas - 4% UNDER after being 62% OVER in Dec 2005
NY - 17% OVER after being 50% over in Jan 2006

Obviously the analysis won't work perfect. Its almost better to compare the 6% growth to the composite because its a more generalized average. Markets like Cali probably normally outstrip that 6% and vice versa for Detriot.

But it still paints the big picture. Interesting stuff.

Post: Government's Financial Rescue Plan, Will It Energize The Weak Real Estate Market?

Dave KennedyPosted
  • Real Estate Investor
  • Georgetown, MA
  • Posts 250
  • Votes 6

I don't think we see a positive effect in housing.

Wall street might bounce back because the multi million $ companies are going to be saved by that Trust fund.

But for a large % of the population this fund and all the bailout money is going to deflate the dollar. As others have mentioned in other threads we will see rampid inflation. As if the costs weren't rising fast enough we will be blasted by a surge in the coming months/year.

That means that most of the population(upper middle class on down the line) will feel it at home. Food, clothes, gas, utlities...etc will all jump big time. Look at some of the numbers Mike mentioned. If thats the case we will be hurting.

A lot of people are stretched to the max as is, with rising costs they will begin defaulting on more mortgages creating more foreclosures. Any new buyers that onces could afford $1500 (just throwing a number out there) a mnth soon might only be able to afford $1200 a mnth because they need to eat and drive. So now that pool of buyers have to look at lowering there price for a potential buy.

If buyers lower their sights, so won't sellers.

It's my opinion that everything the government has done just made the RE market worse, not better.

They did save huge corporations and CEO that get $100 M bonus for losses!

YAY!

Post: Does Everyone Understand What Is Going On Here??

Dave KennedyPosted
  • Real Estate Investor
  • Georgetown, MA
  • Posts 250
  • Votes 6

Well it certainly sounds like RTC is only temporary fix.

It helps the corporations but it screws the common folk....thats just great.

Depending on how long this credit crisis last it may over lap with the doomed Social Security system, that is on overload...soon to break. How about health care....

These 3 things could really take us down for quite some time.

Post: Does Everyone Understand What Is Going On Here??

Dave KennedyPosted
  • Real Estate Investor
  • Georgetown, MA
  • Posts 250
  • Votes 6

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080918/wall_street.html


So whats the repository and how exactly does it work? Obviously the market seems to love it we are up 400 pts on the news.

The banks can just hand there bad debt over to this government entity and make it go poof off their balance sheets?

Hmm...I have a car loan can I just roll that over there too?

Does this mean our government takes the hit and the defciet grows and the tax payers have to take a hike?

I don't understand how this plan works and to me its just pushing one huge problem over to another side of the table. It might buy us some time but its going to catch up somehow.

I dont think this is the silver bullet or the government would have done this a long time ago if it were that simple.

Post: Help me understand this deal and 50%, 2% rule

Dave KennedyPosted
  • Real Estate Investor
  • Georgetown, MA
  • Posts 250
  • Votes 6

Tim I am looking at that listing you showed in Jackson TN for 13k.

Is that a property you would just buy in cash or would you finance. Then some money into paint and carpet and then rent it out?

I looked on cragslist and saw that rents for similar houses were around $450-600.

If you assume 50% exp.

You bring in $300 a month.

Then you'd need to pick up 20+ properties just like it to have a decent monthly income. How would you fund more propreties? You obviously cant keep buying them for cash, but no lender would lend on a 13k house would they?

Post: Metrics for investing

Dave KennedyPosted
  • Real Estate Investor
  • Georgetown, MA
  • Posts 250
  • Votes 6

I see your point about the CDs but what if the 7% CD would come with the risk of late payments or not paying at all. Maybe it could some how damage your other accounts which would cost you more(I know it real life it can't just making the analogy).

Like a poor tenant.

Its a balance of risk and return.

Post: Defconomy

Dave KennedyPosted
  • Real Estate Investor
  • Georgetown, MA
  • Posts 250
  • Votes 6

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/02/28/beck.commentary/index.html

I read this article by Beck on CNN when it came out back in Feburary.

I thought it was interesting to read then, before all this took place. He was actually right on the money with this call.

I'd say we are at level 4 rapidly approaching 5. Although Euro banks are pumping money into us. It's just temporary relief for some of these companies. In fact all it'll do is spread our natios economic problem into other part of the world and just compound the problem.

How can all these countries/financial advisors be this short sighted? We need to just flush these companies out and let the problem work itself out. No reason to bail them out for their failures.