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All Forum Posts by: Ryan Moyer

Ryan Moyer has started 11 posts and replied 863 times.

Post: Is am I too late for Rental Arbitrage?

Ryan Moyer
Posted
  • Property Manager
  • Orlando Kissimmee, Davenport
  • Posts 878
  • Votes 1,282
Quote from @Nathan Gesner:
Quote from @Steve Richard:

Located in Florida, but open to wherever makes sense. Very interested in rental arbitrage through Airbnb or others. I just got turned on to this, but understand its been a strategy for a few years now at least and I fear i'm too late.

My biggest concern is economy and potential recession. I don't like some of the indicators for the next 12 months and i'm concerned about new 12 month leases for arbitrage purposes especially if i'm just now starting up and don't have an existing portfolio to help me out if something goes south.

I'm curious what the hive thinks about where the strategy is at and where it's headed. I've been reading and reading and listening and watching. I see a lot of upside but need to continue my research. My goal would be to use these funds to reinvest in actual purchased property; a strategy to raise  capital more or less.


 I agree with john. Not only are you late to the game, I think people are getting a bad taste in their mouth for Airbnb rentals that are poorly run, in violation of zoning laws, or in violation of hoa/condo rules. Someone just posted about a market where Airbnb rentals are outlawed yet there are hundreds of them. It's only a matter of time before government finds a way to crack down on them and they go away.

if you want to make money, get a job and make money through legal, proven means. If you want to build wealth, get your personal finances in order, save up, and invest through legal proven means.


I don't do any arbitrage, but why are you making the assumption that he'd be doing it illegally?  I didn't see anything in his post implying that he was planning to do it in areas where STRs are not allowed.

Post: Short term rentals in Kissimmee

Ryan Moyer
Posted
  • Property Manager
  • Orlando Kissimmee, Davenport
  • Posts 878
  • Votes 1,282
Quote from @Nathan Gesner:
Quote from @Ryan Moyer:

If you theme it, they will come.

Seriously though, I own in the area and my thoughts on the area are simple.  If you just have a "nice place" with nice furniture and whatnot, then yes it's oversaturated.  There are 40,000 of those and most of those owners got them cheaper so you're left to compete on price with people that have much lower expenses than you.

If you bring the Disney experience into the home, there is still (good) money to be made there.  I'm talking arcade machines, theaters, slides, LED lights, murals, etc all themed out to some Disney movie.  

There are lots of those in the area too, but still few enough that you are competing with 1000 other owners instead of 40,000.


 I saw some of those a couple years ago, brand new and very nicely done, for around $600,000. I'm sure they're listed for over $1 million now.


 That is true of everywhere, though.  In fact a nice $600k place in Gatlinburg or Destin a couple years ago is probably closer to $2 million now.

Post: Gatlinburg STRs and the recession of 2022

Ryan Moyer
Posted
  • Property Manager
  • Orlando Kissimmee, Davenport
  • Posts 878
  • Votes 1,282
Quote from @Bonnie Low:
We all wish we had a crystal ball to know where the economy is headed, inflation specifically, mortgage rates, home prices, vacation spending, etc. etc. Absent that, I think we have to just rely on the fundamentals as investors: is our underwriting solid? Are our margins healthy? Do we have an exit strategy or strategies? Do we have cash reserves to weather a downturn for any unforeseen reason (pandemic, anyone??) Regardless of where it's at today, history tells us the market will be somewhere else entirely 5 years from now. My guess is that there are a lot of owners in over their heads in the STR space who didn't have solid fundamentals when they underwrote their deals. This is based on the high volume of conversations I'm seeing in STR groups from people freaking out that their summer calendars aren't yet booked, dropping their nightly rates and minimum stays, lamenting property tax increases (that they didn't factor in when purchasing), increased insurance costs and wanting to nickel and dime guests on every minor infraction. This combination sure sounds like panic to me so I wouldn't be surprised to see newly acquired STRs coming up for sale in 2022 and early 2023. Beyond that, it's just too hard to guess what will happen.
The problem is anyone underwriting based on 2021 numbers may inherently have bad fundamentals because that travel boost may or may not last, and no one is underwriting with 2019 numbers because if they were none of these homes would be selling at the prices they are.

Post: Short term rentals in Kissimmee

Ryan Moyer
Posted
  • Property Manager
  • Orlando Kissimmee, Davenport
  • Posts 878
  • Votes 1,282

If you theme it, they will come.

Seriously though, I own in the area and my thoughts on the area are simple.  If you just have a "nice place" with nice furniture and whatnot, then yes it's oversaturated.  There are 40,000 of those and most of those owners got them cheaper so you're left to compete on price with people that have much lower expenses than you.

If you bring the Disney experience into the home, there is still (good) money to be made there.  I'm talking arcade machines, theaters, slides, LED lights, murals, etc all themed out to some Disney movie.  

There are lots of those in the area too, but still few enough that you are competing with 1000 other owners instead of 40,000.

Post: Gatlinburg STRs and the recession of 2022

Ryan Moyer
Posted
  • Property Manager
  • Orlando Kissimmee, Davenport
  • Posts 878
  • Votes 1,282

I honestly think Gatlinburg is completely disconnected from the broader housing market and the forces that move that.  The Gatlinburg market, and its home prices, are completely driven and 100% dependent on one thing.  Tourist travel to the area.

If the STR market remains strong it doesn't really matter what the broader market does. It's not like a house grossing $150k a year is going to suddenly sell for $400k just because the housing market takes a dump. As long as that place is grossing $150k a year, it will hold its value.

The downside of that is that there is a lot more potential downside in that market than other markets if STR travel does pull back. It's not like Aspen where the travel market could pull back 50% and home prices would probably barely move because there are more people that legitimately want to own a home in Aspen for themselves than there are homes available.

We can see that in the land value as well.  Land in Aspen or Jackson Hole or even Destin is significantly more expensive than Gatlinburg.  There is only so much land close to the ski slopes or a block off the beach, and a lot of the rise in prices has come alongside a rise in land value.  That's not true in Gatlinburg where the land is still dirt (heh) cheap.  You can still find a nice building lot for under $100k and $250k gets you acreage and a view.

So a 4br pool house a block or two off the beach and a 4br pool cabin in Gatlinburg may both cost $1.5m and gross $150k, but more than half of that new higher price in Destin is the land cost while more than half of the increased cost of that pool cabin in Gatlinburg is nothing more than increased margin/profits for the builder.

That's what's so crazy about this market. I've never seen a market like this where a $70k plot of land and a few hundred K worth of materials builds a $2m house, but that's where we're at. I realize building costs have gone up but not by THAT much in the last year. Lumber is historically high right now but it's actually cheaper now than it was last summer, and a LOT cheaper right now than it was spring 2021. Yet home prices are up 100% without land prices increasing at all. It's all just builder profits because investors are willing to pay that much and no one is dumb enough not to charge it when there are 100 people lining up to pay it. I think that's very different than Destin or Jackson Hole where there is a limited amount of land available and everyone knows there's never going to be more. There is a LOT of room for those builders to lower their prices drastically and still make good money if the STR profits dry up and investors are no longer willing to pay a 70% markup because their underwriting tells them it still makes sense financially.

I can't speak for everyone else, but I am traveled out.  We have traveled a ton since being cooped up with covid and now we're burnt out.  I don't think we're alone in that.  I know people like to say "travel has fundamentally changed and it will never be like it was in 2019 again", and I think I agree, but people absolutely said the EXACT same thing about work from home and now 90% of those work from home stocks that were up 400% are all the way back near their 2019 levels.

It is going to be an interesting few years, for sure!

Post: Would you give warning of ghosts in your STR?

Ryan Moyer
Posted
  • Property Manager
  • Orlando Kissimmee, Davenport
  • Posts 878
  • Votes 1,282

Honestly thought this was going to be a joke after reading the thread title.  Unless you're intentionally trying to hit that niche and get that ghost hunting crowd then no, it seems bizarre to me to even consider it.  To each their own, of course.

Post: Air BNB Financing questions

Ryan Moyer
Posted
  • Property Manager
  • Orlando Kissimmee, Davenport
  • Posts 878
  • Votes 1,282

Plenty of options out there. 2nd home/vacation home loans if you plan to use it yourself some as well. DSCR loans typically will use something like AirDNA to project revenue. Lots of more creative stuff out there as well but those two are the most popular.

Post: Gatlinburg: $1000 psf

Ryan Moyer
Posted
  • Property Manager
  • Orlando Kissimmee, Davenport
  • Posts 878
  • Votes 1,282
Quote from @Collin Hays:
Quote from @Ryan Moyer:
Quote from @Collin Hays:
Quote from @Stephen Ray:

I can't believe that $1000 sq ft is now being justified as reasonable. That 1000sq ft cabin above isn't $471 all year round. Just check it in April/May at 180. I'm sure your buddy has done his homework if he's local and is spending a million $$ but that price is spicey. That being said convenience to downtown is awesome and I've been looking for a riverfront place. 

Due to their scarcity, a true riverfront property is going to run 50% higher than a comparable non-water front property and perhaps twice as high. 

I haven't seen a riverfront property on MLS in Gatlinburg in probably 2 years, and I've seen only one Roaring Fork property on MLS since 2005.  

What this guy did was go to the owners and asked “how much?”  They gave him the number, he wrote the check.


 Is there a link to the property?

I swear there was one on a river front (maybe it was creek front and that's what I'm mixing up?) with two small cabins advertising "the only cabins walkable to the main downtown strip" on the MLS within the last 2 years. I remember considering it. It sat there for a while before the big real estate explosion. Not sure if it was the same property or not but the description of this place sounds identical.


I believe these are recent construction.  There are two listings currently that are on RF Road, but they are not waterfront.  They are across the street.  


 Yeah looks like I was thinking of something else.  These are the ones I was thinking of, which are on a creek not on the river.

https://www.zillow.com/homedet...

Post: Gatlinburg: $1000 psf

Ryan Moyer
Posted
  • Property Manager
  • Orlando Kissimmee, Davenport
  • Posts 878
  • Votes 1,282
Quote from @Collin Hays:
Quote from @Stephen Ray:

I can't believe that $1000 sq ft is now being justified as reasonable. That 1000sq ft cabin above isn't $471 all year round. Just check it in April/May at 180. I'm sure your buddy has done his homework if he's local and is spending a million $$ but that price is spicey. That being said convenience to downtown is awesome and I've been looking for a riverfront place. 

Due to their scarcity, a true riverfront property is going to run 50% higher than a comparable non-water front property and perhaps twice as high. 

I haven't seen a riverfront property on MLS in Gatlinburg in probably 2 years, and I've seen only one Roaring Fork property on MLS since 2005.  

What this guy did was go to the owners and asked “how much?”  They gave him the number, he wrote the check.


 Is there a link to the property?

I swear there was one on a river front (maybe it was creek front and that's what I'm mixing up?) with two small cabins advertising "the only cabins walkable to the main downtown strip" on the MLS within the last 2 years. I remember considering it. It sat there for a while before the big real estate explosion. Not sure if it was the same property or not but the description of this place sounds identical.

Post: Gatlinburg: $1000 psf

Ryan Moyer
Posted
  • Property Manager
  • Orlando Kissimmee, Davenport
  • Posts 878
  • Votes 1,282

If these are the ones I'm thinking of I remember seeing them listed a couple years ago for less than half that and sitting on the market for months.  Obviously the market is very different now and I'm sure the numbers work better now than they did then, but still crazy!