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All Forum Posts by: Chris Clothier

Chris Clothier has started 84 posts and replied 2086 times.

Post: Property Analysis and Suggestions

Chris Clothier
#4 Ask About A Real Estate Company Contributor
Posted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • memphis, TN
  • Posts 2,174
  • Votes 3,349

Hi Eric,

To be direct, this is not a property that a local, experienced investor will buy.  If it sells, especially at that high price, it will be to an out-of-state investor who does not know better, and they will compare it to the pricing they could pay for a similar house in their local area.  So the justification is, the price is really cheap when compared to what I can get close to home.

In reality, this particular property is not inexpensive for the area it is located and the condition it is in.  You mentioned appreciation and how the property has appreciated 60 something percent since 2000.

It has not.

Same goes for rents.  Residents can pay $1600 for rent and be in nicer areas of Memphis with better food, school, job, and transportation options.  The likely market rent in this area is as low as $995 and probably no higher than $1195 and a lot of the rent will depend on condition of the property.

Pull up public records on the home, and you will see it initially sold in 98 for roughly 50k.  It has bounced around and sold multiple times through the years - sometimes as low as 8k, but multiple times below 15k.  This is not an up-and-coming area.  It is a very challenging area with little development, very little redevelopment, and few food, business, or transportation options nearby.  When you see low sales prices in history, these are likely local investors.  When you see mid-50s and I think there was a 65k sales price, those are likely owner occ.  If it sells for 85k, that will be an out-of-state investor who didn't know better.  

Post: FINALLY! A Turnkey property!

Chris Clothier
#4 Ask About A Real Estate Company Contributor
Posted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • memphis, TN
  • Posts 2,174
  • Votes 3,349

@Justin Albrecht Congratulations!  Best of luck as you keep investing and building your portfolio.

Post: Typical time between tenants

Chris Clothier
#4 Ask About A Real Estate Company Contributor
Posted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • memphis, TN
  • Posts 2,174
  • Votes 3,349
Quote from @Cj Powderhorn:

I have 10 SF and MF rentals in several areas, my concerns are with Cape Coral and Memphis. I use property managers in both places. I feel like I’ve seen a few recent issues and curious what other investors have seen.

1. I have duplex in Cape Coral. Rents b/t $1400-$1700 per side. One side was vacant from April to August! When I inquired about it, the manager told me, ‘the tenant had an issue moving out of their last place’. Then, I just saw a placement fee of $1275 charged by the management company. This is something I haven’t experienced before. I’m not calling out the company yet, as I want to make sure I’m not missing something. I’m almost wondering if they held this property, at my expense, for a friend or acquaintance. How is a 4 month vacancy ok?

2. Memphis. Wow. I’ve used several different PM’s here since 2005. I have had one favorite company. However, tenant moved out prior to July 1. I was given a get ready estimate between $3-$4K. Which, to me, should have been a pretty quick turn. I check in this property several times and wasn’t satisfied, as there was no progress. Property finally listed around Sep 6. But the turn cost exceeded $6K. There was no information shared prior to the increase.

These seem like really long vacancy periods and poor communication. I haven’t experienced it before. I know there are lots of Memphis and CC investors here and appreciate any help.

Hey CJ,

For context, we're not having issues with the pace of turnaround, but a lot of moving parts can go wrong at the wrong time and derail any one property at any time.  The same goes for cost overruns.  Issues can and will be uncovered once a renovation gets going.  However, poor communication is just that.  Poor.  I know that is not much of an answer, but I wouldn't say that one slow turnaround, one overrun and one poor communication indicates an ongoing problem.  I would be more concerned with the lack of communication, especially if it is out of the norm for the company you are using.  From all your comments about your Memphis portfolio, I assume you have a good, solid relationship with the company managing your properties.  If so, I would ask for a quick conversation and inquire if everything is ok and if there have been any changes? Then, I would let them know that you continue to have the exact high expectations. 

As an anecdote, we think we are pretty damn good at management, and because of the human side of providing this kind of service, we can miss someone's expectations.  It can boil down to human error and things we can control, but sometimes it is just an issue out of everyone's control.  That doesn't mean it is excusable.  As an investor, you should have high expectations. In the end, if you have a good relationship with the companies, don't wait to ask for a call with the stakeholders.  Always be respectful but firm.  Just let them know that a pattern of long vacancies, overruns on turnaround costs, and poor communication are not something you will to accept as an investor.  I think that same conversation works with your CC management company.

I know from speaking in the past and reading your comments that you are not the issue.  However, don't let the relationship hold you back from being honest and firm.  Don't wait to have tough conversations.  That is my advice. I wish you all the best!

Post: Help me figure out if I am crazy or...

Chris Clothier
#4 Ask About A Real Estate Company Contributor
Posted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • memphis, TN
  • Posts 2,174
  • Votes 3,349

Good morning @Ivana Ivanovic,

You have some good advice from the previous responses, so I won't spend a lot of time repeating it.  The reality of most buying decisions is that we move forward when we like whom we are working with and trust what they tell us.  When you lack trust in what you are hearing or seeing, typically, it is almost impossible to move forward.  It seems like you have good instincts and want to understand what you are seeing and hearing.

I would like to counter some of the statements on here, though, and offer some advice that may help as you get moving forward.  My family first used the word turnkey to describe our business model back in early 2007.  We were featured in a couple of real estate magazines that were widely distributed among real estate meet-ups, and pretty soon, the word began to stick.  I don't claim to be the first to use it, but we have not heard other companies use the word to describe their model before.

To me, a turnkey real estate offering includes a high-quality remodeled property with a resident in place or high probability before closing and an in-place management company under the same roof.  As an investor, this gives you one point of contact and one responsible party to speak with going forward.  One point of contact to purchase the property from, to talk with about renovations and quality of work, and to speak with for ongoing property management.  One responsible party.

I began posting on BP in January 2009, and almost immediately, active investors and other posters with differing views made the same arguments in your posting. The general argument was the same: All turnkey is bad, and all investors can do the exact same thing on their own. I have spent 15+ years making the following statements.

1.  Turnkey is just a marketing word.  It is way over-used today on BP by everyone looking to get some eyeballs on their posts or their products.  Every company that uses the word turnkey has its own definition for what it means.  Today you see realtors use it to describe their services.  You see individuals who buy and sell properties but do none of the work and do not manage the properties; use the word turnkey.  You see, companies that don't actually do anything. They don't buy properties, renovate, or manage properties; they don't even risk their own money.  They act as marketing companies, and they use the word turnkey because they know it works to attract buyers.

2.  It's important to note that not all turnkey companies are bad.  There are a few reputable companies around the country, some of which are here on BP, with solid long-term reputations.  However, it's crucial to invest time in doing what you've already done-  asking questions and getting to know the companies.  The two most important questions you can ask are 'How' and 'Why '.  Why do they run their numbers the way they do?    How do they operate to give you high confidence in their ability? 

Many investors never bother to understand precisely how a passive investment will work.  When you buy halfway across the country and expect a turnkey process where someone or some company is doing all of the detailed work, such as property selection, renovation work, and property management, you are entirely reliant on their ability.  As I said, several companies are very good at selecting, renovating, and managing investment properties.  In my opinion, there are also more that are not so good and several promotional companies that do the industry no favors. 

As far as the answers you received, I likely would not find any comfort in them the way you typed them in here. I would ask a few more questions, but again, I doubt my trust in them would grow based on what you typed.

I agree 100% on the account reserves.  As an investor, I firmly believe in keeping $5,000 to $8,000 in reserves for each property up to five or six properties.  I also believe every dollar from my residents' paid rent goes toward principal reduction.  If I am not reducing the principal, then I will add it to my reserve account.  I don't invest to make and use the cash flow for anything outside of the property.  Once I have $40,000 to $50,000 in a reserve account, I am no longer worried about having enough reserves.  I am comfortable that I built enough of a reserve account to handle my portfolio.

I do not account for vacancy, maintenance or capex in my personal calculations.  Those are soft costs that are not monthly nor annual - however, they will occur.  My cash flow is calculated by income - fixed expenses, which I can calculate monthly, quarterly, or yearly.  Over the long term, my properties make money in multiple ways, but cash flow is probably the least significant.  For me, the rent covers everything and allows the property to perform.  From there, every dollar goes toward reserves or principal reduction.  If a property goes vacant, reserves pay the note.  If a property needs maintenance, it is either reduced from that month's rent or comes from reserves.  It is the same with capex costs.  Some are treated as expenses, and some are an increase in basis.  

I am explaining all of this because I am a passive investor like you.  I am buying for the long haul. I am not buying for short, quick hits.  I rely on others to be really good at what they do.  I do not expect to buy properties at 1% rent-to-price ratios.  I buy median-priced homes and above with exceptionally good property management and high expectations that the house's value will go up, the rent it commands will go up, and the likelihood of it staying rented with low maintenance is very high.  I know it will likely make very little annual cash flow for that.  I generally own my properties at the top of the market and sometimes above market value, but I am an experienced investor and fully understand that I must let time do its job.  If I have the right company, they will help me beat market averages for vacancy and maintenance.

You are not asking for too much with your post and expectations of a turnkey provider.  I think you are getting some poor responses from the company.  Do not settle for less than what you expect.  I don't like the word realistic, so I will say that you want to understand what you get for what you pay.  The better the deal looks, knowing that you are passive, the higher the likely risk.  There is a point where a property makes sense to meet your expectations.  But your expectations have to align with who you are doing business with and what you are buying.  There are good turnkey companies out there that understand how important high-quality homes and services are to investors. 

Please don't worry about being in a rush. I promise that you will not miss out by being patient.  Best of luck as you go forward!

Post: Final Steps before commiting to my first out of state rental.

Chris Clothier
#4 Ask About A Real Estate Company Contributor
Posted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • memphis, TN
  • Posts 2,174
  • Votes 3,349
Quote from @Miguelli Fernandez:
Quote from @Nicholas L.:

@LaTonya Clark

i totally agree with you - i have out of state rentals myself.  one i self-manage.  i just look for risk in posts - since I don't know the people in person i have to go by what they post, and so here i saw the same thing @Travis Timmons did - 'stacking' risk factors:

-from California

-probably chose Cleveland solely because of the price point and not because of any market knowledge

-asked about borrowing 100% and asked about forming an LLC

-did not indicate anything about strategy

to be very clear - these are fine questions that OP is asking, and out of state investing is a fine strategy.  it's just higher or lower risk depending on who you are and what you're trying to accomplish. and with nothing else to go on, this one seemed on the higher risk side.


 Your responses have all been very appreciated as you seem to be looking to mitigate catastrophe for strangers starting out.

So far, it's been 1 step forward and 2 steps backwards.  I did some research on BP via reviews on realtors that were in the Cleveland market and met on teams/zoom and chose the one I felt was most trustworthy solely based on volume of good reviews, some social media presence, and other factors that provided value to me.

I got into investing after reading about section 8. My strategy is to find a good agent, analyze the off market deals presented to me on either SF or MF within my budget, account for some repairs so I don't want to buy turnkey but also don't want to BRRRR from out of state (at least not yet), and rent to section 8. Aiming to get a C property, in a B neighborhood, to attract the best of the worst in terms of clients to capture stability of section 8.


The biggest thing I'm stuck on is knowing who to trust.  Everyone's got an opinion and something to sell.  For someone brand new, its quite frustrating.  Right now, after reading these posts, I'm second guessing my realtor even though I felt like I had already found a good one. I haven't been able to find PM yet that I fully trust that can get a good tenant in there and get rehab/repairs done without getting lied to and ripped off since so many reviews on PM probably only include bad experiences.  Do I just use the realtor's complete list of contacts on their rolodex if they've proven to be a successful and have a good reputation on BP?


I want to deploy the knowledge on the opportunities in real estate that I know are there but being OOS makes it difficult to move forward and just discouraged at the moment.


 MIguelli,

This is a good thing right now.  You realize that there is a lot you don't know yet and aren't sure how or who to trust.  These are good instincts.  The opposite would be just buying properties because someone told you it was a good deal and penciled out a spreadsheet that convinced you.  It is a good sign that you are skeptical, so don't be frustrated.

My advice at this point is to make a post on BP asking if there are investors or investor groups in the city you live in California that you can meet with in person who have invested in the cities you are interested in buying.  You will get some of the same responses, but look for someone or multi investors you can meet with and buy them a cup of coffee or a beer and ask them to share their successes and failures.  So many investors here are happy to share how they went about investing across the country.  Some will be more active, and some will be passive, but at this point, I would push forward with directly connecting with investors who have nothing to sell and are not collecting referral fees.  

Don't be frustrated, and don't be in a hurry.  Good, smart investments are always available.  It usually takes a bit of time to feel confident in your decision-making.  You will always get conflicting advice on different topics. But it does get easier to decipher the good from the bad and the helpful from the unhelpful.  

Good luck as you go forward. I personally think you're in a great spot because you are asking questions and not just throwing your money around. I hope you make a few connections so you can meet across the table and get the advice you need.

Post: Final Steps before commiting to my first out of state rental.

Chris Clothier
#4 Ask About A Real Estate Company Contributor
Posted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • memphis, TN
  • Posts 2,174
  • Votes 3,349
Quote from @Miguelli Fernandez:
Quote from @Chris Clothier:
Quote from @Miguelli Fernandez:

Been doing a lot of research and prep work and feeling ready to start putting offers. Few questions still.

1. If I use a HELOC or HELOAN from my primary residence to buy a rental, will the mortgage interest be able to offset the rental's income? (I have read it can't be which is why I'm at this point considering just going with a 30 year conventional loan and putting the 15% or 25% for SFH or MFH.

2. I'm based in California but plan to buy rentals in Cleveland Ohio. Where should I form my LLC? California or Ohio? Getting conflicting info.



On question 2, why are you forming an LLC? More importantly, what is the goal or expected outcome of forming an LLC?

Asset protection. Primary residence has about 550k in equity in Southern California.

I figured as much and I understand the thought process, but my advice is to not worry about an LLC right now. #1, the likelihood of being in a lawsuit scenario is very small. Don't let fear and fear mongers convince you otherwise. If you want to properly protect yourself, use layered insurance when you start. Have proper policies for each property and a proper personal umbrella policy layered over the top covering your investment properties. These two should easily provide the level of coverage you need to protect the assets you have including your personal property equity. It is also relatively inexpensive compared to LLC formation, upkeep, and yearly registration/possible tax.

The #2 point that makes this a mute discussion is you are not going to be able to move a property underwritten by a GSE (as most mortgages today are) into an LLC legally. God forbid you are sued and you try to present the LLC shield, even if you managed to not slip up and lose the corporate veil through a technicality, if it is shown that you were forbidden from moving the property into an LLC by your signed loan docs, the LLC will be stricken and will go right back to you personally. If you want the highest level of security, properly insure yourself and your investments.

I don't think LLC shields are things you should put as a priority until you grow a sizable portfolio (10-15 plus with $1 million or more in equity).

Post: Final Steps before commiting to my first out of state rental.

Chris Clothier
#4 Ask About A Real Estate Company Contributor
Posted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • memphis, TN
  • Posts 2,174
  • Votes 3,349
Quote from @Miguelli Fernandez:

Been doing a lot of research and prep work and feeling ready to start putting offers. Few questions still.

1. If I use a HELOC or HELOAN from my primary residence to buy a rental, will the mortgage interest be able to offset the rental's income? (I have read it can't be which is why I'm at this point considering just going with a 30 year conventional loan and putting the 15% or 25% for SFH or MFH.

2. I'm based in California but plan to buy rentals in Cleveland Ohio. Where should I form my LLC? California or Ohio? Getting conflicting info.



On question 2, why are you forming an LLC? More importantly, what is the goal or expected outcome of forming an LLC?

Post: Buying turnkey with repaired foundation in Texas

Chris Clothier
#4 Ask About A Real Estate Company Contributor
Posted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • memphis, TN
  • Posts 2,174
  • Votes 3,349

Hi Varun,

I've been investing and owning in the DFW markets since 2012, and foundation work is a common maintenance item.  It is not a problem.

There are different remedies, including soaker hoses and other remediation items, to limit soil impaction, but piers and leveling are common.  The best route is using licensed foundation companies and engineers to conduct work surveys to determine what needs to be done and then having that work done by licensed companies with warranties.  The same issues exist in Oklahoma City and other parts of Texas.  As an experienced investor, it does not give us even the slightest pause on a property. 

Post: Recent REI nation experience?

Chris Clothier
#4 Ask About A Real Estate Company Contributor
Posted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • memphis, TN
  • Posts 2,174
  • Votes 3,349
Quote from @Kevin Lee:

Hey all! I've been reading along and trying to absorb as much knowledge as I can in the last 4 years. I'm curious if anyone has had any dealings with REI nation lately? My main question is if these properties ended up cash flowing or gaining appreciation in the past few years? Would you use them again? Any information would be appreciated. Thank you!


 Welcome to the active side of BP!  I love that you have taken your time and are now ready to check out my family's company as a possible way to get started.  I am confident that as a client, we will meet your expectations, and I respect that you are asking for other investors feedback and advice.

Investors are sometimes a little quieter in the forums than they are when you direct message them with questions about companies.  I will include a couple of forum links from investors.  I would suggest possibly messaging them and asking them for unfiltered advice and about their experiences.  It is not all cupcakes and rainbows.  But you will hear how we respond when vacancies and unexpected maintenance issues arise.

If you have trouble getting the feedback you seek, please contact me. I will be happy to connect you with investors, and I can assure you they will not all sing the praises of REI and passive investing. But they will tell you how we work together to hit your expectations as best as we can!

This investor started roughly 5 years ago and owns multiple properties.

https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/311/topics/834163-rei-n...

This investor has 4 properties, and he shares them here on BP. He may be able to answer more of your questions on Turnkey with REI Nation. Plus, I believe he owns in Memphis, Dallas, Little Rock, and maybe Oklahoma City. So he has a breadth of experience. He is also responsive to questions.

https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/88/topics/1184155-rei-n...

 A couple of additional forums to read through.  Shows how some vendors think about working with us and other industry leaders.  Also, one shows that we are not perfect, but we are always here and always working to the best for our investors.

https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/12/topics/1076169-rei-n...

https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/52/topics/997655-rei-na...

Again, best of luck to you as you get started, and should you choose to work with our company, then please reach out and connect with me.  Best - Chris

Post: REI Nation YOY Re-Rent and REnewal of current lease data

Chris Clothier
#4 Ask About A Real Estate Company Contributor
Posted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • memphis, TN
  • Posts 2,174
  • Votes 3,349
Quote from @Rhett Tullis:

@Chris Clothier yes we are seeing residents be less mobile recently as well (we manage 1000 doors in OKC Metro) as long as the owners keep the increase under 10% they tend to stay and renew.... 

By the way I enjoyed hearing you at the NARPM Broker/Owner Conference.  It has inspired me to look at some improvements we want to make in the months ahead!

1,000 doors under management is fantastic!  1,000 doors in one market is a helluva accomplishment. 
I appreciate the comments on the keynote at NARPM.  I love speaking at conferences like that and sharing some of our story and data.  The invite from the conference stands.  If you ever have a chance and want to visit us in Memphis or Dallas and talk strategy and systems, we love to share what works for us and learn what's working for other companies as well.
Best -