Wood rot on recently purchased SFH invesment - KCMO

Wood rot on recently purchased SFH invesment - KCMO

Melissa RobbinsPro Member
Investor · Denver CO · Member since 2020 · 63 posts · 37 votes

Investors - I'm torn on making a decision here and am curious how some of you would handle this situation. 

For starters, here is my background.  I am a new investor in KCMO, but live in Denver. I bought three SFHs at 2.785% in KCMO area in March with 25% down, All are rented at double the mortgage payment. I'd like to hold these for 10 or more years. 

I'm learning one home has a larger amount of wood rot on the siding than I originally realized and it needs gutter work as well.  This is a classic raised ranch (bi-level), 3x2, at about 1500 sq feet, built-in 1995. 

The seller noted this in the disclosure but did not provide detailed comments and the inspector noted some wood rot but did not mark it as an urgent item. Sadly, the inspector has since passed away. Clearly, I knew about this but did not know the extent of the problem, and I did not push to get bids before the inspection resolution was complete. My fault. Lesson learned. I've received one bid for $15,000 to fix the gutters, power wash, replace wood rot and paint, and trying to collect more bids. I have the cash to fix it but would rather spend it on my next purchase.

My questions to you all are this. 

  • I've never owned a home with wood siding. When will I know the exterior wood rot is at a point when it HAS to be replaced because it's affecting the value of the home? 
  • What alternative options, if any, would you use to temporarily patch the problem to buy time and fix it later?
  • Does anyone have a trustworthy siding expert in the KCMO area they would recommend? 

I'm probably overthinking this but obviously concerned I've made a $15k mistake. And I want to show the banks these are profitable so I can continue to finance more deals next year. 

Curious how some of the more experienced investors would evaluate this situation. Any advice?  Thank you for your time!

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Theresa HarrisPro Member
Member since 2019 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
4y

I would start by getting another quote.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Rental Property Investor · Lawrence, KS · Member since 2015 · 116 posts · 38 votes
    4y

    Hi @Melissa Robbins.  I need to say up front that construction questions aren't my strongest skill set.  Is most of the rot along the bottom of the siding?  Sometimes you can cut along the bottom and put some trim board up and paint to get by.   Gutters will help prevent more water from splashing up on the siding I am guessing.   I live in Lawrence and have a siding company I use here, but not sure if they go to KC.  Have you joined the Bridge Real Estate Investing Meetup Facebook Group that Nathan Brooks runs?  If you post in there, you'll get some good recommendations to call.  Hope that helps.  There's usually a surprise or two when purchasing a property.  Don't sweat it too much!

  • Theresa HarrisPro Member
    Member since 2019 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    4y

    I would start by getting another quote.

  • Melissa RobbinsPro Member
    OP
    Investor · Denver CO · Member since 2020 · 63 posts · 37 votes
    4y

    @Derek Felch - Thank you. Just by you saying don't sweat it too much, lessens my anxiety.  The wood rot is in sections all over, some small, and some more extensive, because the previous owner didn't use the correct size sheets and never sealed seams or nail holes. I think you are right that gutters should be addressed now regardless.  I do belong to the Bridge investment Group. This is where I got the name of the company with the $15K bid.  I used that company to rebuild a deck for me at my other rental and was happy with the quality for the price. I know they work with other investors. I will go back through that site and read through comments on other companies.  That's a good idea.

    @Theresa Harris -  I received another bid for vinyl thinking it would be cheaper and that came in at $20K.  I've talked to one other company that was supposed to do a bid but I never heard back from them.  But you are right, I need more bids to truly make a best decision. 

  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    4y

    What is the square footage of the affected area? And yes, get more quotes! You can throw some paint on this and let it go for a while, that's up to your comfort level....

  • Melissa RobbinsPro Member
    OP
    Investor · Denver CO · Member since 2020 · 63 posts · 37 votes
    4y

    @Bruce Woodruff - I'm not sure of the exterior SF but this is the house. Inside is 1342 sf is exact. Good to know I could potentially paint over wood rot for now and buy it some time. I might also get quotes for just touching up the paint over the repaired wood rot and then getting the whole thing painted at a later time. 

  • Theresa HarrisPro Member
    Member since 2019 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Melissa Robbins:

    @Derek Felch - Thank you. Just by you saying don't sweat it too much, lessens my anxiety.  The wood rot is in sections all over, some small, and some more extensive, because the previous owner didn't use the correct size sheets and never sealed seams or nail holes. I think you are right that gutters should be addressed now regardless.  I do belong to the Bridge investment Group. This is where I got the name of the company with the $15K bid.  I used that company to rebuild a deck for me at my other rental and was happy with the quality for the price. I know they work with other investors. I will go back through that site and read through comments on other companies.  That's a good idea.

    @Theresa Harris -  I received another bid for vinyl thinking it would be cheaper and that came in at $20K.  I've talked to one other company that was supposed to do a bid but I never heard back from them.  But you are right, I need more bids to truly make a best decision. 

     $20K vs $15K is a big difference.  Make sure they include similar things.  You may find a few shady people who will try to take advantage of you because you are a woman.

  • Theresa HarrisPro Member
    Member since 2019 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    4y

    I wouldn't paint over the wood rot to buy time.  Either leave it (not a good idea if it is extensive) or replace those boards/add new siding.

  • Melissa RobbinsPro Member
    OP
    Investor · Denver CO · Member since 2020 · 63 posts · 37 votes
    4y

    @Theresa Harris thanks! Yes, woman and out of state makes it a little more strategic to get to the right answer.  I apparently need to learn more about wood exteriors so I can talk more intelligently from a distance. Being a newbie makes me more vulnerable. 

  • Realtor · Boulder, CO · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    4y

     I would repair it all and make sure all the rotten wood is removed before it get's worse. Attempting a temporary repair on rotten wood could just lead to a more expensive repair later on as the rot spreads into the rest of the house, potentially compromising the framing causing structural issues. Paint doesn't adhere to rotten wood. You can cut out small areas and use a product like wood filler, plastic wood, durham's water putty etc. or bondo basically to repair small areas, but it sounds like your problem goes beyond that at this point. Once you start seeing large rotten areas that an inspector notes and a seller discloses, there's usually more rot underneath the visible rot that needs to be addressed. Unfortunately it's often a can of worms situation where you can't really know the scope of the problem until you pull off some rotten boards. I usually plan for the scope of work to broaden in these scenarios. I'd hire a competent carpentry crew and stay in close communication with them, have them video call you daily if possible, maybe even travel to KCMO to supervise. Sometimes it's necessary to get eyes on an issue to make these kinds of judgement calls. Good luck!  

  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Melissa Robbins:

    @Bruce Woodruff - I'm not sure of the exterior SF but this is the house. Inside is 1342 sf is exact. Good to know I could potentially paint over wood rot for now and buy it some time. I might also get quotes for just touching up the paint over the repaired wood rot and then getting the whole thing painted at a later time. 

     Nice house! You can buy a little time  but I would attend to it within the year. That kind of siding is not that hard to repair/patch. How much of the exterior (in %) needs repair? From the price tag, it must be a majority of it?

  • Rental Property Investor · Concord, GA · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    4y

    It's unclear from the post but is this actually "wood" siding, as in boards? Or is it more likely a wood composition siding product? If it's the latter, in the mid 90's there were a gazillion homes that used wood product siding that was problematic to the point that there were class action lawsuits concerning it and many homes were resided under conditions of the settlement. However, this siding is still prevalent on many homes. Just today I was painting a house that has this type of siding. Wood rots due to moisture. If it's kept dry, it's fine. Thus, depending on how much it's deteriorated, caulk and paint may buy more time. Otherwise, removing it and installing a Hardie plank type product is a common solution. Also, in my area, these houses are often covered with vinyl siding while leaving the wood product siding in place. Most of the time, this siding goes bad on chimney chases, the bottom row or two around the house and anywhere it's been damaged allowing water egress.

  • Melissa RobbinsPro Member
    OP
    Investor · Denver CO · Member since 2020 · 63 posts · 37 votes
    4y

    @Steve K.Thanks Steve. That's good advice. I didn't think about not being able to paint over it. I got it rented May 1 and the cash flow is about $500 per month so right now I don't have much profit saved up to cover it but if it can wait a year, I should be able to cover the cost as long as nothing else goes wrong. I really don't want to take money out of my personal savings. 

    Since I've received many good tips from everyone, I've done more research and have three other vendors to call on Monday. And flights are affordable from Denver to KC so I can make a day trip or stay with family while I am there. 

    @Bruce Woodruff - There are areas all over where the wrong size trim was used, seams and screw holes were never sealed. I would say 30-40% of the home needs work. Here's a few other pics. 

  • Melissa RobbinsPro Member
    OP
    Investor · Denver CO · Member since 2020 · 63 posts · 37 votes
    4y

    @John Teachout - Yes, its a composition material. I say wood but I am not using the correct label. The house was built in 1995 so I am sure this is one of those gazillion! I hope the product they use now is better. KC is a humid area with a decent amount of rain.  I think I will find someone who can fix the gutters now, save up my profits to fix the rest later. 

  • Real Estate Broker · Redwood City, CA · Member since 2014 · 679 posts · 888 votes
    4y

    T1-11siding, 4’x8’ sheets. Made with mostly paper material, not even plywood. 




  • Melissa RobbinsPro Member
    OP
    Investor · Denver CO · Member since 2020 · 63 posts · 37 votes
    4y

    @David Song YES, you are correct. I remember the person I received the bid from said the old homeowner used the wrong sized sheet and should be 4x9.  If this material is that bad, maybe I do need to look at replacing all of it. Ugh. Thanks for offering that info David. Its helpful to know what the material is called.

  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @David Song:

    T1-11siding, 4’x8’ sheets. Made with mostly paper material, not even plywood. 

    T-111 is actually a wood plywood. This product is one of the composites, probably this: https://www.homedepot.com/p/LP...

    It can be a decent product if installed absolutely correctly. but that work looks horrible. You need to address the water penetration issues immediately.

  • Melissa RobbinsPro Member
    OP
    Investor · Denver CO · Member since 2020 · 63 posts · 37 votes
    4y

    @Bruce Woodruff The work IS horrible. Thanks for chiming in on this. I don't know anything about siding so this has been a helpful discussion and I understand the problem more.  Thank you to all for the help!

  • Member since 2021 · 18 posts · 8 votes
    4y

    @Melissa Robbins I had this same issue on my house. Those horizontal stops of wood are probably holding moisture and it is rotting the wood. I used "z flashing" and painted it the same color as the siding, no horizontal trim. I would hope the contractors would have some idea on how to let that water shed in that situation.

    When you rip off rotten wood, you don't really know what is behind it and how much has rotted away.. That's more than likely why the bids are a little higher.

  • Melissa RobbinsPro Member
    OP
    Investor · Denver CO · Member since 2020 · 63 posts · 37 votes
    4y

    @Stephen Girard - I am scared to find out what is behind it. Hopefully, it's not terrible. Whomever I select, I will for sure be coming to KC since the risk of more work is high.  Maybe I should just sell it. The other homes in the neighborhood are already selling for $30K more since I bought this in March. And the inside is nice with no major repairs needed.

  • Member since 2021 · 18 posts · 8 votes
    4y

    @Melissa Robbins then you may still have to pay the 15-20k off asking price to include that repair. It really doesn't look terrible, the contractors bid things to make money and not gamble. At this point, I hope you keep it and I wish you the best of luck.

  • Melissa RobbinsPro Member
    OP
    Investor · Denver CO · Member since 2020 · 63 posts · 37 votes
    4y

    @Stephen Girard - thanks Stephen. Appreciate you taking the time on this. 

  • Real Estate Broker · Redwood City, CA · Member since 2014 · 679 posts · 888 votes
    4y



    Originally posted by @Melissa Robbins:

    @David Song YES, you are correct. I remember the person I received the bid from said the old homeowner used the wrong sized sheet and should be 4x9.  If this material is that bad, maybe I do need to look at replacing all of it. Ugh. Thanks for offering that info David. Its helpful to know what the material is called.

    This kind of siding is easy to repair. Most of the rot will happen in the lower section of the wall. Just cut those rotted sections out, install new water proofing paper, new z flashing, and new siding. Must paint. Paint protect those siding from water damage. This should not cost $15k, unless you are replacing whole house siding.



  • Melissa RobbinsPro Member
    OP
    Investor · Denver CO · Member since 2020 · 63 posts · 37 votes
    4y

    @David Song Thanks David. I think I can find a lower bid. I'm eager to get this resolved. Crossing my fingers there's no further damage. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Boston, Massachusetts (MA) · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    4y

    @Melissa Robbins keep in mind that quote—high as it is includes painting which is a recurrent (5-7 year if diligent) expense and really not part of the damage.

    Aluminum siding more expensive up front but you don’t have to paint afterwards. Can’t really give u informed feedback on pricing there, though. Good luck.

  • Member since 2021 · 35 posts · 17 votes
    4y

    @Melissa Robbins

    I asked my husband to chime in because he has a particular amount of experience in this area.

    We live in downtown Orlando, in a historic neighborhood, and have personally rehabbed/renovated several historic homes with wood siding ourselves. Of course you will have to keep in mind climate differences, however, the theories behind different alternatives should apply regardless of the climate. Hope the below helps!

    In our area, which is a wet humid climate, runoff from the roof causes damage if you don’t have gutters so I completely understand that point you made. From my experience, I have removed the bottom 3 feet of siding several times, and redone both the sheathing, which Gets updated to plywood, and novelty siding on top of it. Many wood framed Historic homes with wood siding may not have sheathing which actually allows For a couple of alternatives. If it’s not overlapping siding, and it is flat shiplap style novelty siding, use the siding as sheeting and potentially go over it with a couple of layers of building science That apply to your climate

    In our area, the vapor barrier goes on the warm side, which is our exterior, so as I remove the bottom few feet of siding all the way around the building, I replace with plywood, then I cover the entire house with vapor barrier, do flashing around the windows correctly by removing the trim, and then I come back over top of it with hardy board.

    If your siding is overlapping, it will make this difficult, but you wouldn’t necessarily add a vapor barrier to the outside of your house with your climate. Most lumberyards have the type of siding you’re looking for, and I highly encourage you figure out how high up the wood rot goes. Some other alternatives that may exist in your climate would be furring the exterior shell out, Adding a continuous Rockwool insulation shell, and then creating another layer of exterior siding. Having wood siding allows for vapor transfer so theoretically you can do what I’m saying, but it’s not the most cost effective.You would also have to consider what insulation and vapor barrier’s already exist.

    My last thought would be to try to figure out how soft some of the framing got behind the wood rot. Last thing you want us to create a hard shell around soft framing so if you have to replace framing, better to do this all at once. Hopefully you don’t have a problem around the entire house, which I have had before, and my only regret was not peeling it away all at once to manage.

    I’m happy to help talk through this stuff with you if you need to speak with somebody on the phone that can at least help you think through your choices. Follow the building signs whatever you do

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