Help a newbie! Cap rates: stabilized vs value add

Help a newbie! Cap rates: stabilized vs value add

Member since 2020 · 3 posts · 2 votes

Hey all,

First time poster here! Just started to get my feet wet in the real estate space and I'm reading as much as I can to learn as quickly as I can. I'm interested in being a passive investor (I'm a young doctor who loves his job and has no interest in owning or managing properties at this time). Syndications/funds seem interesting, though I've never invested in real estate before and am brand new to the space.

With that being said, I'm reading through Brian Burke's book - The Hand's Off Investor. In the section discussing Cap Rates, I'm having trouble wrapping my head around why this statement is true: "Cap rates on stabilized properties tend to be higher than cap rates on properties that require value-add"

My internet search and search through BP forums leads me to believe that stabilized properties should have lower cap rates....

Price = NOI / cap rate

If I were buying a Class A stabilized property, I would imagine I (along with the entire real estate market) would be willing to pay a premium price to purchase this property so the cap rate would decrease. On the other hand, if there were a poorly managed property, given the same NOI, I would be willing to pay a much lower price so the market sentiment aka cap rate would go up.

Furthermore, there is this idea of cap rate compression where as you do renovations on properties, the price would go up and you would compress the cap rate. Does this mean if you were to buy a value-add property with an already low cap rate, the cap rate would go even further down? This seems weird to me. 

And why do people always say things like "I turned a 5 cap into an 8 cap property." What the heck does this even mean?

What am I missing here and what concepts am I misunderstanding?

Thanks for all your help!

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Brian BurkePro Member
Investor · Santa Rosa, CA · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 7k+ votes
4y
Originally posted by @Dennis Kwon:

I'm reading through Brian Burke's book - The Hand's Off Investor. In the section discussing Cap Rates, I'm having trouble wrapping my head around why this statement is true: "Cap rates on stabilized properties tend to be higher than cap rates on properties that require value-add"

My internet search and search through BP forums leads me to believe that stabilized properties should have lower cap rates....

The disconnect here is you are attempting to compare apples to oranges: cap rates for a "value add" versus "class A."  This is kind of like saying "which is faster, an airplane or an aircraft."  An airplane is an aircraft, but an aircraft doesn't have to be an airplane, it could be a helicopter, glider, or balloon, too.  Same goes here.  A "class A" could be a value add.  Or not.  And a value add could be a class A.  Or not.

Instead, let's compare like for like:  

Deal #1: A class A that is fully stabilized and rents are roughly equivalent to the comps (meaning there's no value-add potential here), versus

Deal #2: a class A that isn't as well amenitized as it's peers, the management is disorganized and hasn't kept up with rent increases, the interiors, while nice and certainly up to class A standards, lack some basics like stainless steel appliances (it has white) and a nice tile backsplash in the kitchen.

Clearly they are both class A, and clearly deal #1 is NOT a value add.  Deal #2 is a value add--by changing out the appliances, adding a tile backsplash, improving the gym, adding a dog park, upgrading the signage, and putting professional management in place that has its eye on the ball, the new ownership can achieve significantly higher rents than the property is currently getting.  No higher than deal #1, but equal to it.

Now let's examine the purchase. Deal #1 has NOI of $1,000,000 and is selling at a 4% cap rate, so a price of $25 million. Deal #2 has NOI of $750,000 and is selling at a 3.5% cap rate, so we'll call that $21.5 million. YES...see here that the value add deal is a LOWER cap rate?! Now, let's work beyond the purchase to see why.

Deal #1's year 2 NOI is still $1,000,000 because rents were at top of market and there was really nowhere else to go. Deal #2's year 2 NOI is $1,000,000 because the new owner made the improvements and changes listed above (we're talking theory here, it probably takes 2-3 years to do this but doesn't change the logic behind the concept). Let's say it cost them $1 million to do all of that.

Now let's examine where both owners are.  Deal #1 has $1M of income for $25M, giving a yield on cost of 4% (for simplicity I'm not adding in closing and financing costs because they'll be roughly the same for both and overcomplicates an already complicated discussion).  Deal #2 has $1M of income for $22.5M ($21.5M purchase plus $1M improvements) for a yield on cost of 4.44%.  So who came out on top?  Yes, deal #2, despite paying a lower cap rate for a value-add property.  Same income, lower basis, and higher yield on cost, despite lower cap rate.

The answer to why value add trades at a lower cap rate than stabilized deals is because buyers are willing to pay a premium for an income stream that they can grow.

You aren't compressing the cap rate as you renovate.  Instead, you are growing the income.  Another mistake here is that people incorrectly think they control the cap rate.  They do not...cap rate is a measure of market sentiment only.  I always assume that when I buy a value-add deal the cap rate would go UP.  Take the examples above.  If you were to sell both deal #1 and deal #2 above, deal #1 sells at a 4% cap rate (we're assuming the overall market sentiment hasn't changed since you bought the property), and gets a $25M price.  Deal #2 also sells at a 4% cap rate (because that's what the market cap rate happens to be for stabilized assets and now that you fixed up deal #2 it's now a stabilized property).  You bought deal #2 at a 3.5% cap rate, so the cap rate went UP by 0.5%.  BUT, on deal #1 you lost money after selling for the same price you paid (then paid commissions, etc), but on deal #2 you made money because you are in it for $22.5M and are selling for $25M.  So forget about "moving" cap rates, and just focus on moving the income.

People say this when they don't know what they're talking about.  Read this article, it'll clear this up plus the other incorrect information you commonly read (even in these forums) about cap rate.  https://www.biggerpockets.com/...  If you're really a glutton for punishment and want to dive even further into cap rate, check this one out too.  https://www.biggerpockets.com/...

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Investor · Columbus, GA · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    4y

    CAP rate, or capitalization rate, is the return on your investment if you paid cash for it. The higher number of a cap rate, the lower the price you can afford to pay for it. An 8 Cap property is less expensive/valuable than a 5 Cap. A Class A property will have a lower cap rate, which means you will have to pay more for the property. However, the class A property will most likely appreciate in value and be more desirable to a buyer in the future than an 8 Cap.

    To your other point, real estate investing is not a passive endeavor. If you want a truly passive investment, the U.S. stock market is passive. You cannot buy real estate and expect the best property manager in the world to care about your deal more than you should care. You must be involved. The two fastest ways to lose money in real estate is bad contractors and bad property managers.

  • Member since 2020 · 3 posts · 2 votes
    4y

    My understanding was similar to yours in that if all else is equal, the 8 cap property is less valuable and expensive than a 5 cap property. Then how does one reconcile the statement made by @Brian Burke in his book that stabilized properties tend to have a higher cap rate than value add. Wouldn't a stabilized property be more valuable than a value-add? Also, how does cap rate compression come fit into these concepts? 

    Thank you for your thoughts. My goal at this time is to learn and invest as a LP. I understand investing even in so called passively requires a tremendous amount of research and due diligence (which I am doing now). At this early stage in my RE investing career, I'm looking to learn as much and as quickly as possible.

  • Investor · Columbus, GA · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    4y

    His statement is either written incorrectly,  or misunderstood. Cap rates compress when interest rates go lower, or in a market where supply is restricted by government regulations or lack available land. Manhattan is an island and there is nowhere to build except vertically. So cap rates will always be lower there than in Texas, for example. As interest rates increase,  and they will, cap rates will follow. Borrowing money at 6% doesn't make sense for a 5 % cap property, unless you are counting solely on appreciation, which is very risky. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2016 · 553 posts · 314 votes
    4y

    The cap rate really only works for people comparing the cash flows that the asset can provide. If you look at something as a land deal, or a redevelopment opportunity, or with some other things like rent control, it doesn't help as much.

    For instance, if you are doing a covered land play you might see land that sells at a 4.5% cap based on existing units on the property. That doesn't mean that the existing units are super desirable, just that the cap rate doesn't accurately reflect how the property was valued.

  • Real Estate Broker · Coppell, TX · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    4y

    @Dennis Kwon   One way to learn as much as you can in a short amount of time is go to a conference---2 or 3 days of non-stop information....Brad Sumrok's Race to Retirement, Best Ever Conference, Michael Blanks Bootcamp, Rod Khleif bootcamp and I am sure there are many other good ones.  Don't do it online....go live.   Info is one thing, but networking is another 1/2 of it.  Be careful investing with the amateurs there, but you'll probably soak in fire hydrant's water flow there in 2-3 days.

    Be aware in my experience even being an LP takes a ton of time researching.  Anything but passive until perhaps you invest....then the money is dead for 2-3-5-7-10 years....and you perhaps are reading a 5 min report each month and then checking to make sure at some point deposits are hitting your account.   If you don't spend the time, well you may get lucky, but you may as well get taken as well.  Plenty of posts here on BP, where especially busy docs throw money at LP opportunities only to get burned.  Seems like the sharks smell blood in the water when they hear doc/dentist wants to invest passively.

    One thought is to invest with a very experienced operator....returns will be lower likely, but you'll have more peace of mind vs throwing money at a newer and less experienced operator.  Make that your 10th or 20th investment, not the first.

  • Brian BurkePro Member
    Investor · Santa Rosa, CA · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Dennis Kwon:

    I'm reading through Brian Burke's book - The Hand's Off Investor. In the section discussing Cap Rates, I'm having trouble wrapping my head around why this statement is true: "Cap rates on stabilized properties tend to be higher than cap rates on properties that require value-add"

    My internet search and search through BP forums leads me to believe that stabilized properties should have lower cap rates....

    The disconnect here is you are attempting to compare apples to oranges: cap rates for a "value add" versus "class A."  This is kind of like saying "which is faster, an airplane or an aircraft."  An airplane is an aircraft, but an aircraft doesn't have to be an airplane, it could be a helicopter, glider, or balloon, too.  Same goes here.  A "class A" could be a value add.  Or not.  And a value add could be a class A.  Or not.

    Instead, let's compare like for like:  

    Deal #1: A class A that is fully stabilized and rents are roughly equivalent to the comps (meaning there's no value-add potential here), versus

    Deal #2: a class A that isn't as well amenitized as it's peers, the management is disorganized and hasn't kept up with rent increases, the interiors, while nice and certainly up to class A standards, lack some basics like stainless steel appliances (it has white) and a nice tile backsplash in the kitchen.

    Clearly they are both class A, and clearly deal #1 is NOT a value add.  Deal #2 is a value add--by changing out the appliances, adding a tile backsplash, improving the gym, adding a dog park, upgrading the signage, and putting professional management in place that has its eye on the ball, the new ownership can achieve significantly higher rents than the property is currently getting.  No higher than deal #1, but equal to it.

    Now let's examine the purchase. Deal #1 has NOI of $1,000,000 and is selling at a 4% cap rate, so a price of $25 million. Deal #2 has NOI of $750,000 and is selling at a 3.5% cap rate, so we'll call that $21.5 million. YES...see here that the value add deal is a LOWER cap rate?! Now, let's work beyond the purchase to see why.

    Deal #1's year 2 NOI is still $1,000,000 because rents were at top of market and there was really nowhere else to go. Deal #2's year 2 NOI is $1,000,000 because the new owner made the improvements and changes listed above (we're talking theory here, it probably takes 2-3 years to do this but doesn't change the logic behind the concept). Let's say it cost them $1 million to do all of that.

    Now let's examine where both owners are.  Deal #1 has $1M of income for $25M, giving a yield on cost of 4% (for simplicity I'm not adding in closing and financing costs because they'll be roughly the same for both and overcomplicates an already complicated discussion).  Deal #2 has $1M of income for $22.5M ($21.5M purchase plus $1M improvements) for a yield on cost of 4.44%.  So who came out on top?  Yes, deal #2, despite paying a lower cap rate for a value-add property.  Same income, lower basis, and higher yield on cost, despite lower cap rate.

    The answer to why value add trades at a lower cap rate than stabilized deals is because buyers are willing to pay a premium for an income stream that they can grow.

    You aren't compressing the cap rate as you renovate.  Instead, you are growing the income.  Another mistake here is that people incorrectly think they control the cap rate.  They do not...cap rate is a measure of market sentiment only.  I always assume that when I buy a value-add deal the cap rate would go UP.  Take the examples above.  If you were to sell both deal #1 and deal #2 above, deal #1 sells at a 4% cap rate (we're assuming the overall market sentiment hasn't changed since you bought the property), and gets a $25M price.  Deal #2 also sells at a 4% cap rate (because that's what the market cap rate happens to be for stabilized assets and now that you fixed up deal #2 it's now a stabilized property).  You bought deal #2 at a 3.5% cap rate, so the cap rate went UP by 0.5%.  BUT, on deal #1 you lost money after selling for the same price you paid (then paid commissions, etc), but on deal #2 you made money because you are in it for $22.5M and are selling for $25M.  So forget about "moving" cap rates, and just focus on moving the income.

    People say this when they don't know what they're talking about.  Read this article, it'll clear this up plus the other incorrect information you commonly read (even in these forums) about cap rate.  https://www.biggerpockets.com/...  If you're really a glutton for punishment and want to dive even further into cap rate, check this one out too.  https://www.biggerpockets.com/...

  • Real Estate Investor · Herndon, VA · Member since 2014 · 5 posts · 1 vote
    4y

    If I can take a stab at this, as I've also had similar confusions on this in-spite of having a finance (though non-RE) background: 

    Say Property A is throwing off NOI of $100 & is valued at $1,000 thus has a cap rate of 10%. Property B, with similar comparables, but badly managed thus is valued at $900 & can only manage $80 of NOI, so it's cap rate is 8.89%. So the stabilized property has a higher cap rate than the one requiring work.

    If you were to add-value to Property B by making improvements & better management & all such good things you could improve NOI & the value to Property A's value thus turning a 8.89 cap to a 10 cap. The magic is in the math - with some hopefully minor value-add expenses you increase rents (as a proxy for NOI) by 25% but cap rates only increases by approx 12.48% [1-(8.89/10)].

    All these are very generous assumptions, but I think it clarifies the point that increasing cap rates can be accretive to a property's value if NOI is increased by a higher percentage.

  • Member since 2020 · 3 posts · 2 votes
    4y

    Thank you all! The posts have been tremendously helpful. 

    @Brian Burke Thank you!! (Love your book by the way! Big fan) I'm coming to understand that maybe I should be focusing much less on cap rates and more on yield on cost / developmental lift, particularly in value-add situations. The cap rate is the cap rate and what you can control is NOI.

    @Jignesh S. Thank you! Yes, the math was confusing until I started inputting numbers and playing around to see what the outcome would be. 

  • Rental Property Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2016 · 48 posts · 16 votes
    4y

    @Dennis Kwon Typically value add opportunities will sell at lower cap rates. The objective of course is to increase the NOI through execution of the business plan over a period of time. That is what drive the property value up.

    I think your strategy to invest passively is a smart one. You still get all the advantages of being an active investor: appreciation, cash flow, and tax advantages all without the headaches.

    There is due diligence to do on the front end. You're on the right path understanding the principles. I would also suggest you start looking at deal flow from different syndicators so you can see how deals are structured, what preferred returns are and learn about the syndicator's track record.

    Hope this helps. I have experience as a passive investor and syndicator. Be happy to connect and answer more questions.

  • Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    4y

    @Dennis Kwon

    Not much be added to @Brian Burke's get post. 

    The only other thing that may help you understand this is that for value add properties most professional investors don't use Cap Rates for to figure out what they will pay, but other means such as Discounted Cash Flow or replacement cost analysis. 

    When you compare the cap rates on the surface they look funky, but often times there are things going on behind the scenes to justify, at least on paper, the lower Cap Rate.

    Those behind the scenes assumptions may or may not come to fruition, but someone somewhere thinks they will. 

  • Paul MoorePro Member
    Commercial Real Estate Fund Manager · Lynchburg, VA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    4y

    @Brian Burke, you’re a busy guy.  Thanks for taking the time to give such a wonderful and detailed explanation here. You knocked it out of the park. 

    @Dennis Kwon, let's look at an extreme example of a lower cap rate for a value add. Let's assume Brian‘s second property was extremely mismanaged and had revenue, but zero net operating income. The cap rate would effectively be zero if you were going by the math only. Cap rate = NOI / Purchase Price. If you could acquire that property for $20 million, you might be ridiculed by someone who only looked at the math. Then you become a hero when you managed it correctly and got the value up to $25 million. Happy Investing!

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