Agent is “wholesaling” property on MLS
Wow, this one is a doozy. In all of my 10 years I have never seen anything like it.
Friday a client of mine discovered a property for sale that he has had his eye on for almost 4 years. Back then, it was listed for $300k as a short sale, and to be honest it may have worked for him at that price, although it wasn't worth it for him to go through the short sale process, only to be denied because he wanted to come in with a lowball number. Nevertheless, here we are 4 years later and it has finally run the foreclosure course and hit the market. I tried to get the lockbox code through our centralized showing system, but oddly I was directed to contact the agent. This is uncommon, but happens from time to time, so I called the agent, no answer, and then texted her. A minute later she responded with the LB code. I thanked her for the quick response, and told her my client will likely be interested so I asked her to give me a call when she had a chance. It's now listed at $225k. We spent, almost 2 hours touring the building, taking notes, discussing repairs, discussing the renovation plan etc etc. When we finished I immediately called the agent as they wanted to put an offer in. No answer. I sent another text letting her know my intentions in hopes she'd get back to me. When I got back to the office I pulled the property up on the MLS for the first time and everything appeared to be normal. At this point the only oddity we had noticed was that when it was listed on Zillow about 45 days ago at $150k, there was a price increase to $225k about 20 days later. Uncommon again, but Iv seen it before. As I start digging into the MLS and public records I find another MLS listing for the same property. In fact there were 3 total, the one from 4 years ago, the one listed for sale now, and a mysterious 3rd that was saying PENDING. My heart sunk into my stomach as I hate to find Pending listings on good opportunities, so I open it up and look around. First thing I notice is it's a carbon copy of the Active listing. The second thing I noticed was, my MLS shows the information for listing agents, and when properties go Pending or sold, they lost the buyers side agent information. I noticed the "Buyers" agent was the same agent as the "listing" agent on the New Active listing. Res flags and warning bells are going off now. I start lining up the dates. 4 days after the first listing goes Pending, the new listing is created. The seller is Hubzu, if anyone has any experience working with them, 100% chance that they do not close a deal in 4 days from execution of agreement. From this point I contact the original listing agent and inform her of what I found. Luckily she responds late on a Friday, but simply says that agent shouldn't be listing the property like that, and that she'd look into it Monday. At this point I'm pretty sure Iv solved the case. My guess is they are "wholesaling" this property, but what blew my mind was that they actually had the audacity to list it on the MLS. I sent a few more texts to the "new sellers" agent but was not able to get any answers. Later that night at 10pm I finally get a response. She replies, "it is for sale.... my partner is flipping the house....that is what you see a pending sale". Hmm. I reply "so they do actually own it then?" She replies Yes. I say that's weird, they should update the MLS, blah blah blah, and then she stops responding. Realizing what's happening I send a message to her saying my client is getting a little concerned with the shady ness of the deal, and that he's only willing to pay $150k, let me know if they'll accept that, otherwise we are just moving on." No answer. The next day I decide to research her brokerage, and broker of record. The office listed on the MLS doesn't exist. The broker of records cell phone number begins with (555). I was able to track down an 800 number that connected me to someone at charge in the office and I explained I had an interested buyer, couldn't get ahold of the agent to get answer and a seller disclosure which is required in my state, etc. He asked my to Text the address and agent info to him. He is a lot more responsive, although he isn't giving me any actual information. I continue to downplay my buyers interest, because at this point I'm going way far out of my way to track down this info, and I don't want to tip them off how interested my buyer is in this property, Incase they do not actually own it, and realize it's value and follow through with the sale. Finally, the broker or office manager responds to my text messages telling me " my buyer should probably move on to any property". I keep it cordial and inform him we kind of just want to get the story at this point, and he repsonds with "again, move on". So at this point I'm sure he got the story, and realized I'm on the them. What I'm not 100% sure of at this point is whether they actually settled or not. I'm praying that they have not, and that I can cut in and stop their attempt to flip the paper on this thing for $75k. I contact a title company because in this county they e-file title so the new owner would be recorded immediately. The title company informs me that the bank still owns the property. That's pretty much where we are now. What do I do? I NEED to stop their sale if it's still under contract. They are obviously intending on flipping it without making any repairs. My buyer intends on actually renovating and renting it out, and making the neighborhood a better place, faster, and not trying to make a quick buck. I'll admit we both dropped the ball not seeing the original listing 45 days ago. We have had our attention in 3 other deals and simply didn't have the time or resources to take on anymore. I know it's illegal to market properties on my MLS if your not the owner, my fear is that I can't stop their sale. Is the fact that attempted to flip it without owning it enough for the bank to cancel the contract with them? I am extremely scared of them actually closing on this deal, first of all it'll cost my buyer more money with zero benefit, but also now that I have basically pestered them the past 2 days, I'm afraid they either won't sell to us, or will just stand firm on a ridiculous price. Iv kept all of my communication professional, and like I said I have not indicated he'd be willing to pay much more than they paid, but if they had half a brain they'd be able to realize how high his interest is from how much we've been trying to get some answers. Anyone deal with this before? Any advice? Hoping to connect with the banks agent first thing tomorrow and lay out the facts, get them to cancel and slide in. I have a feeling it won't be that easy. All you "wholesalers" who see nothing wrong here need not reply, I don't need a debate about how many laws were broken here. To be clear, they were selling the house, not the contract. Looking forward to hearing what you veterans think.
Originally posted by @Steve K.:@William C. If you manage to get the contract cancelled, be prepared for this wholesaler to record a memo and cloud title just to mess with you/whoever ends up going under contract next. Then they may extort you for a payoff in order to remove the memo and clear title. Chess is all about anticipating the opponents next three moves. Unfortunately even if the actual seller cancels this contract the wholesaler may not give the deal up without putting up a fight.
No prob, if it's frivolous and your attorney is as good as mine, it won't be a problem. I've smacked such liens aside more than once.
Originally posted by @Tchaka Owen:
Originally posted by @Greg H.:-If you buyer is still ready to pay $30k more and wants the property, why not make the offer to the agent and just “play the game”? I get the principle of it but at the end of the day standing on principle may not get the property
And perpetuate the scam? How does that help us clean up the industry of the shady?
That might be what we are forced to do if they are not able to cancel the contract. She lied about ownership, so how am I supposed to trust anything she says from this point on, especially about "having other offers". I understand agents walk a fine line when negotiating a deal for their sellers and trying to get top dollar. But Iv never lied about having an offer I did not actually have in hand. We are always "expecting other offers" though. The reason I'm fairly certain they don't have any other offers because It only took me 5 minutes on the MLS to sniff out the scam. The only reason I bit and indicated we were interested in an submitting an offer was because we noticed the listing while out and about. I contacted the centralized showing system, they had no record of instructions ( because she knew this would set off red flags, and had notes in the MLS to contact her directly). We walked the property and I contacted her on the way home about a possible offer. She ignored me for a good 6 hours after giving me the LB combo in a matter of minutes. When she finally responded I continued down the offer path to see what information she would give up. Quite frankly I was prepared to work with her and try to secure it for my buyer, even though they were clearly wholesalng it. I gave her an opportunity to come clean about not being the owner when I asked about the other listing Pending, she doubled down and claimed ownership, and that they were flipping the property. That's when it became clear I needed to go a different route and try to get to the seller directly. As the truth unfolded, and as she continued to lie and deceive, it became clear I wanted nothing to do with working with her in a real estate transaction. So, again, if any other buyers were interested, I have to hope they too would have realized something was amiss. I could be wrong, maybe they were naive and just went ahead with an offer anyway. I'm praying the real agent is able to cancel, and we simply cut out the scammers and work with the seller directly. Unfortunately no updates from the real agent as of today.
Originally posted by @William C.:
Originally posted by @Tchaka Owen:Originally posted by @Greg H.:
-If you buyer is still ready to pay $30k more and wants the property, why not make the offer to the agent and just “play the game”? I get the principle of it but at the end of the day standing on principle may not get the property
And perpetuate the scam? How does that help us clean up the industry of the shady?
That might be what we are forced to do if they are not able to cancel the contract. She lied about ownership, so how am I supposed to trust anything she says from this point on, especially about "having other offers". I understand agents walk a fine line when negotiating a deal for their sellers and trying to get top dollar. But Iv never lied about having an offer I did not actually have in hand. We are always "expecting other offers" though. The reason I'm fairly certain they don't have any other offers because It only took me 5 minutes on the MLS to sniff out the scam. The only reason I bit and indicated we were interested in an submitting an offer was because we noticed the listing while out and about. I contacted the centralized showing system, they had no record of instructions ( because she knew this would set off red flags, and had notes in the MLS to contact her directly). We walked the property and I contacted her on the way home about a possible offer. She ignored me for a good 6 hours after giving me the LB combo in a matter of minutes. When she finally responded I continued down the offer path to see what information she would give up. Quite frankly I was prepared to work with her and try to secure it for my buyer, even though they were clearly wholesalng it. I gave her an opportunity to come clean about not being the owner when I asked about the other listing Pending, she doubled down and claimed ownership, and that they were flipping the property. That's when it became clear I needed to go a different route and try to get to the seller directly. As the truth unfolded, and as she continued to lie and deceive, it became clear I wanted nothing to do with working with her in a real estate transaction. So, again, if any other buyers were interested, I have to hope they too would have realized something was amiss. I could be wrong, maybe they were naive and just went ahead with an offer anyway. I'm praying the real agent is able to cancel, and we simply cut out the scammers and work with the seller directly. Unfortunately no updates from the real agent as of today.
Man, you need to get a vision board setup next to your desk. You and your clients are going to leave sooo many opportunities on the table with this righteousness attitude.
To all of these claims about how the other party is wrong, fraudulent, unethical, etc etc - who the hell cares? Your goal should be to get your client the property at a price acceptable to them, even if that means slogging through the muck and mud of the real estate world. The utopia you want where everyone is honest and ethical doesn't exist, and won't, no matter how hard you fight. Spend your time working within the system vs. trying to fight it.
Now, if you want to file a complaint after the transaction closes, go right ahead, that might be the right thing to do. But again, the goal here should be to make the sale for your client, not prove how right you are and how wrong the other party is. I've reported plenty of wholesalers to the state board and plenty of non-compliant folks to the MLS, but never before my client has a chance to close on a deal.
You aren't going to get the contract between 2 other parties cancelled by being a tattle-tale and assuming whats going on isn't acceptable to both of the contract's parties. Maybe the bank doesn't care how the deal gets assigned as long as it gets closed. Even if their contract states otherwise, that's between them, and is none of your business. And even if you do get it cancelled, who's to say another party won't come in offer more and still beat you out? Will you still say "no fair!" and find a way to derail that person's deal?
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Broker Illinois (#471.019601)
- Olszak Realty Inc.
- 847-447-6824
- http://www.olszakrealty.com
- [email protected]
@William C. - a number of comments (I've read the entire thread) are accurate. I have 2 comments:
1. While you're passionate about helping your Buyer, I hope that you are looking at the bigger picture and trying to root out bad agents. The more we step up, the less they will do what they do. As an FYI, I am fine with wholesalers and believe that they are more of an asset to the investing community than a detriment. And if they can make money, more power to them. I also believe in following the rules set out for us and it's clear there's shadiness going on.
2. Find your way into Hubzu and complain that you sense something unethical and that you have a buyer ready to offer significantly more than they're getting. Here's how I see it: if it's a legit $150k and the wholesaler is able to make more off someone else, good for them. On the other hand, if the $150k is based on a valuation provided by the same agent, then it's cooked. Hubzu will know who they hired. I wouldn't rely on the agent to get the transaction halted unless you know with certainty she's not involved. Good luck!
Originally posted by @Matthew Olszak:
Originally posted by @William C.:Originally posted by @Tchaka Owen:
Originally posted by @Greg H.:-If you buyer is still ready to pay $30k more and wants the property, why not make the offer to the agent and just “play the game”? I get the principle of it but at the end of the day standing on principle may not get the property
And perpetuate the scam? How does that help us clean up the industry of the shady?
That might be what we are forced to do if they are not able to cancel the contract. She lied about ownership, so how am I supposed to trust anything she says from this point on, especially about "having other offers". I understand agents walk a fine line when negotiating a deal for their sellers and trying to get top dollar. But Iv never lied about having an offer I did not actually have in hand. We are always "expecting other offers" though. The reason I'm fairly certain they don't have any other offers because It only took me 5 minutes on the MLS to sniff out the scam. The only reason I bit and indicated we were interested in an submitting an offer was because we noticed the listing while out and about. I contacted the centralized showing system, they had no record of instructions ( because she knew this would set off red flags, and had notes in the MLS to contact her directly). We walked the property and I contacted her on the way home about a possible offer. She ignored me for a good 6 hours after giving me the LB combo in a matter of minutes. When she finally responded I continued down the offer path to see what information she would give up. Quite frankly I was prepared to work with her and try to secure it for my buyer, even though they were clearly wholesalng it. I gave her an opportunity to come clean about not being the owner when I asked about the other listing Pending, she doubled down and claimed ownership, and that they were flipping the property. That's when it became clear I needed to go a different route and try to get to the seller directly. As the truth unfolded, and as she continued to lie and deceive, it became clear I wanted nothing to do with working with her in a real estate transaction. So, again, if any other buyers were interested, I have to hope they too would have realized something was amiss. I could be wrong, maybe they were naive and just went ahead with an offer anyway. I'm praying the real agent is able to cancel, and we simply cut out the scammers and work with the seller directly. Unfortunately no updates from the real agent as of today.
Man, you need to get a vision board setup next to your desk. You and your clients are going to leave sooo many opportunities on the table with this righteousness attitude.
To all of these claims about how the other party is wrong, fraudulent, unethical, etc etc - who the hell cares? Your goal should be to get your client the property at a price acceptable to them, even if that means slogging through the muck and mud of the real estate world. The utopia you want where everyone is honest and ethical doesn't exist, and won't, no matter how hard you fight. Spend your time working within the system vs. trying to fight it.
Now, if you want to file a complaint after the transaction closes, go right ahead, that might be the right thing to do. But again, the goal here should be to make the sale for your client, not prove how right you are and how wrong the other party is. I've reported plenty of wholesalers to the state board and plenty of non-compliant folks to the MLS, but never before my client has a chance to close on a deal.
You aren't going to get the contract between 2 other parties cancelled by being a tattle-tale and assuming whats going on isn't acceptable to both of the contract's parties. Maybe the bank doesn't care how the deal gets assigned as long as it gets closed. Even if their contract states otherwise, that's between them, and is none of your business. And even if you do get it cancelled, who's to say another party won't come in offer more and still beat you out? Will you still say "no fair!" and find a way to derail that person's deal?
OP is more worried about the case he’s building that will probably lead nowhere than getting deals done and making $$$$
Originally posted by @Matthew Olszak:Originally posted by @William C.:
Originally posted by @Tchaka Owen:Originally posted by @Greg H.:
-If you buyer is still ready to pay $30k more and wants the property, why not make the offer to the agent and just “play the game”? I get the principle of it but at the end of the day standing on principle may not get the property
And perpetuate the scam? How does that help us clean up the industry of the shady?
That might be what we are forced to do if they are not able to cancel the contract. She lied about ownership, so how am I supposed to trust anything she says from this point on, especially about "having other offers". I understand agents walk a fine line when negotiating a deal for their sellers and trying to get top dollar. But Iv never lied about having an offer I did not actually have in hand. We are always "expecting other offers" though. The reason I'm fairly certain they don't have any other offers because It only took me 5 minutes on the MLS to sniff out the scam. The only reason I bit and indicated we were interested in an submitting an offer was because we noticed the listing while out and about. I contacted the centralized showing system, they had no record of instructions ( because she knew this would set off red flags, and had notes in the MLS to contact her directly). We walked the property and I contacted her on the way home about a possible offer. She ignored me for a good 6 hours after giving me the LB combo in a matter of minutes. When she finally responded I continued down the offer path to see what information she would give up. Quite frankly I was prepared to work with her and try to secure it for my buyer, even though they were clearly wholesalng it. I gave her an opportunity to come clean about not being the owner when I asked about the other listing Pending, she doubled down and claimed ownership, and that they were flipping the property. That's when it became clear I needed to go a different route and try to get to the seller directly. As the truth unfolded, and as she continued to lie and deceive, it became clear I wanted nothing to do with working with her in a real estate transaction. So, again, if any other buyers were interested, I have to hope they too would have realized something was amiss. I could be wrong, maybe they were naive and just went ahead with an offer anyway. I'm praying the real agent is able to cancel, and we simply cut out the scammers and work with the seller directly. Unfortunately no updates from the real agent as of today.
Man, you need to get a vision board setup next to your desk. You and your clients are going to leave sooo many opportunities on the table with this righteousness attitude.
To all of these claims about how the other party is wrong, fraudulent, unethical, etc etc - who the hell cares? Your goal should be to get your client the property at a price acceptable to them, even if that means slogging through the muck and mud of the real estate world. The utopia you want where everyone is honest and ethical doesn't exist, and won't, no matter how hard you fight. Spend your time working within the system vs. trying to fight it.
Now, if you want to file a complaint after the transaction closes, go right ahead, that might be the right thing to do. But again, the goal here should be to make the sale for your client, not prove how right you are and how wrong the other party is. I've reported plenty of wholesalers to the state board and plenty of non-compliant folks to the MLS, but never before my client has a chance to close on a deal.
You aren't going to get the contract between 2 other parties cancelled by being a tattle-tale and assuming whats going on isn't acceptable to both of the contract's parties. Maybe the bank doesn't care how the deal gets assigned as long as it gets closed. Even if their contract states otherwise, that's between them, and is none of your business. And even if you do get it cancelled, who's to say another party won't come in offer more and still beat you out? Will you still say "no fair!" and find a way to derail that person's deal?
I appreciate your input, next time it would be nice if you would bring some value to the thread. First, read the entire thread, and then leave your input. Then you'll realize how stupid your entire post sounds. Your way off, and obviously read OP and couldn't wait to scroll to the bottom to add your 2 cents. The contract is being cancelled. So theres that. Agents can't lie about owning a home, bottom line. The seller doesn't allow for the home to be remarked. To say WHO CARES? tells me you are a scum bag like these scammers trying to pull a fast one. Actually honest and ethical does exist. This is an all time low, and I've been doing it 10 years. You must be referring to your own actions, because I'v never had an issue before this with agents, owners, or buyers being unethical. Oh, and by the way. Iv already addressed what happens when the contract is cancelled. They will be going to backup offers. If we lose, so be it. As long as scam artists dont get it. You really showed what a stand up guy you are though, I'll remember who to avoid in Chi town. That rant has made us all dumber, you are awarded no points, and may god have mercy on your soul.
Originally posted by @Chris Purcell:
Originally posted by @Matthew Olszak:Originally posted by @William C.:
Originally posted by @Tchaka Owen:Originally posted by @Greg H.:
-If you buyer is still ready to pay $30k more and wants the property, why not make the offer to the agent and just “play the game”? I get the principle of it but at the end of the day standing on principle may not get the property
And perpetuate the scam? How does that help us clean up the industry of the shady?
That might be what we are forced to do if they are not able to cancel the contract. She lied about ownership, so how am I supposed to trust anything she says from this point on, especially about "having other offers". I understand agents walk a fine line when negotiating a deal for their sellers and trying to get top dollar. But Iv never lied about having an offer I did not actually have in hand. We are always "expecting other offers" though. The reason I'm fairly certain they don't have any other offers because It only took me 5 minutes on the MLS to sniff out the scam. The only reason I bit and indicated we were interested in an submitting an offer was because we noticed the listing while out and about. I contacted the centralized showing system, they had no record of instructions ( because she knew this would set off red flags, and had notes in the MLS to contact her directly). We walked the property and I contacted her on the way home about a possible offer. She ignored me for a good 6 hours after giving me the LB combo in a matter of minutes. When she finally responded I continued down the offer path to see what information she would give up. Quite frankly I was prepared to work with her and try to secure it for my buyer, even though they were clearly wholesalng it. I gave her an opportunity to come clean about not being the owner when I asked about the other listing Pending, she doubled down and claimed ownership, and that they were flipping the property. That's when it became clear I needed to go a different route and try to get to the seller directly. As the truth unfolded, and as she continued to lie and deceive, it became clear I wanted nothing to do with working with her in a real estate transaction. So, again, if any other buyers were interested, I have to hope they too would have realized something was amiss. I could be wrong, maybe they were naive and just went ahead with an offer anyway. I'm praying the real agent is able to cancel, and we simply cut out the scammers and work with the seller directly. Unfortunately no updates from the real agent as of today.
Man, you need to get a vision board setup next to your desk. You and your clients are going to leave sooo many opportunities on the table with this righteousness attitude.
To all of these claims about how the other party is wrong, fraudulent, unethical, etc etc - who the hell cares? Your goal should be to get your client the property at a price acceptable to them, even if that means slogging through the muck and mud of the real estate world. The utopia you want where everyone is honest and ethical doesn't exist, and won't, no matter how hard you fight. Spend your time working within the system vs. trying to fight it.
Now, if you want to file a complaint after the transaction closes, go right ahead, that might be the right thing to do. But again, the goal here should be to make the sale for your client, not prove how right you are and how wrong the other party is. I've reported plenty of wholesalers to the state board and plenty of non-compliant folks to the MLS, but never before my client has a chance to close on a deal.
You aren't going to get the contract between 2 other parties cancelled by being a tattle-tale and assuming whats going on isn't acceptable to both of the contract's parties. Maybe the bank doesn't care how the deal gets assigned as long as it gets closed. Even if their contract states otherwise, that's between them, and is none of your business. And even if you do get it cancelled, who's to say another party won't come in offer more and still beat you out? Will you still say "no fair!" and find a way to derail that person's deal?
OP is more worried about the case he’s building that will probably lead nowhere than getting deals done and making $$$$
Still trolling hard, huh? Seems like you have nothing better to do then drop in every one in a while with a useless post. I'm not worried about anything actually. The case was solved. The contract is done, and may the highest bidder win. Your free to turn off notifications for this thread,
Originally posted by @Tchaka Owen:
@William C. - a number of comments (I've read the entire thread) are accurate. I have 2 comments:
1. While you're passionate about helping your Buyer, I hope that you are looking at the bigger picture and trying to root out bad agents. The more we step up, the less they will do what they do. As an FYI, I am fine with wholesalers and believe that they are more of an asset to the investing community than a detriment. And if they can make money, more power to them. I also believe in following the rules set out for us and it's clear there's shadiness going on.
2. Find your way into Hubzu and complain that you sense something unethical and that you have a buyer ready to offer significantly more than they're getting. Here's how I see it: if it's a legit $150k and the wholesaler is able to make more off someone else, good for them. On the other hand, if the $150k is based on a valuation provided by the same agent, then it's cooked. Hubzu will know who they hired. I wouldn't rely on the agent to get the transaction halted unless you know with certainty she's not involved. Good luck!
Iv said multiple times I would love to meet a few honest legit wholesalers in my market. I would love more deal flow. I've been looking for 10 years. It's weird I cant seem to find one.
I think your lost regarding who is representing who in this transaction. I have already mentioned that the REAL listing agent who is working for the bank has instructed me to submit a backup offer, and that she will be cancelling the contract with the scammers, and moving to backup offers, or relisting. It's handled. Nothing more to be done on my end.
And you lost me regarding the valuations. The property was originally listed at $150k, legitimately, by the actual listing agent. It was relisted 4 days later by a fake listing agent, acting as if she owned it with an investment group. This was proven to be a lie through a quick title search. The REAL listing agent is aware, and has apologized, and is handling it on her end.
So you are right, I skimmed it. I then went back and read about 3/4ths and decided to write this. Maybe I missed more. It doesn't really matter.
As far as this story is concerned it appears that the agent put the property under contract and likely said "if i can flip it out and make 225k before we settle, I will do that". I see flippers and wholesalers do that on the MLS. It is not uncommon. When I used to wholesale, we never used the MLS but that was 10 years ago. If I remember correctly, we looked into the issues arising from this. At the time, there was a legitimate argument that having an agreement of sale was considered a vested interest in the property and therefor could be put on the MLS. I don't know if that wording has become more clear or not over time. We never did it back then, but I do remember looking into it.
Originally posted by @William C.:
Originally posted by @Kate J.:
@William C. Omg as if hubzu is not complicated enougth... Just wait, it will reappear on their website. Contact them directly about violations. I am surprised selling agent is involved, they usually have one that lists hundred of properties (one for entire state).
Not sure what you mean. I involved the selling agent. Shes seems to be on my side here, and she is also the listing agent for about 10 states. So believe you me I was surprised as anyone when she immediately responded to my first email to her on a Friday afternoon, and then again on Monday morning to notify me how to proceed and that she was cancelling the contract.
I understand it's along read, and I understand wanting to skim through and get the cliff notes. But I have been live updating the story as the story has unfolded. I appreciate the input. I just don't see the need to repeat myself every time someone reads the OP, jumps to the bottom and leaves their 2 cents.
Originally posted by @Ian Walsh:
So you are right, I skimmed it. I then went back and read about 3/4ths and decided to write this. Maybe I missed more. It doesn't really matter.
As far as this story is concerned it appears that the agent put the property under contract and likely said "if i can flip it out and make 225k before we settle, I will do that". I see flippers and wholesalers do that on the MLS. It is not uncommon. When I used to wholesale, we never used the MLS but that was 10 years ago. If I remember correctly, we looked into the issues arising from this. At the time, there was a legitimate argument that having an agreement of sale was considered a vested interest in the property and therefor could be put on the MLS. I don't know if that wording has become more clear or not over time. We never did it back then, but I do remember looking into it.
Originally posted by @William C.:Originally posted by @Kate J.:@William C. Omg as if hubzu is not complicated enougth... Just wait, it will reappear on their website. Contact them directly about violations. I am surprised selling agent is involved, they usually have one that lists hundred of properties (one for entire state).
Not sure what you mean. I involved the selling agent. Shes seems to be on my side here, and she is also the listing agent for about 10 states. So believe you me I was surprised as anyone when she immediately responded to my first email to her on a Friday afternoon, and then again on Monday morning to notify me how to proceed and that she was cancelling the contract.
I understand it's along read, and I understand wanting to skim through and get the cliff notes. But I have been live updating the story as the story has unfolded. I appreciate the input. I just don't see the need to repeat myself every time someone reads the OP, jumps to the bottom and leaves their 2 cents.
I appreciate you taking the time to read the thread. Towards the end I think it's mostly me just repeating myself to those who make comments that have no context because the situation has already changed since OP. Vested interest is exactly that, vested. Meaning you have the right to own the asset.....in the future. The debate will go on forever in my opinion. My issue with this practice is that its lose, lose for the seller, and win win for the wholesaler. Buyer ties up property with agreement of sale and no intent on closing unless they find an end buyer. If they find an end buyer, the seller gets to sell their house, but for far less than what they could have if they had worked with an honest agent or investor. If they don't find and end buyer, the deal falls apart and now seller is stuck with the house and all that time was wasted. Don't get me wrong, I UNDERSTAND ALL DEALS ARE DIFFERENT. I know people will want to jump in and give their example. My point is, that's how the game is taught. Wholesalers, this day and age bring zero value to sellers, the may have in the past, but now they are just the lucky one to get to the seller first and secure the property.
Here a fact I have never heard mentioned before, and pretty much sums up why wholesaling will cease to exist in 5-10 years. Heck, even agents might be gone by then too. The internet has revolutionized the industry, along with many others. Wholesaling made sense 20 years ago when information moved much slower, and its true that they might have 5 or 6 investors standing by to buy up a property. With the internet, a seller could literally take 5 minutes to sign up for Zillow, list their home for $1. Watch all the sharks, good and bad and ugly come running to get a deal. Give it 30 days and review all the offers, and let the market will dictate the price, and they will get top dollar. The first time I ever heard of wholesaling my first question was, why don't they just list the thing on the MLS themselves and see what they can get?? They had no real good answer for me. I get it, some people THINK they cant sell on the MLS, and some people need cash now. Truth is all homes sell on the MLS, and cash offers come in ever day on those homes as well.
So there it is. The internet will be the end of wholesaler as they have existed in the past. And this is just one guys opinion on the whole thing. Call me wrong all you want. Its my thread and this is my opinion.
With all the said in regards to wholesaling on a Macro level. On a micro level, and the deal i'm involved in. It was just lies and misrepresentation from the start. And the seller explicitly prohibits the home to be remarketed, and prohibits the agreement to be assigned or even attempting to assign it, and the seller prohibits the buyer to give access to others prior to actually owning it. So I get it, some deals make sense to be wholesaled, but this is one of them. Let me also be clear that if the agent/buyer/liar had just SIMPLY been honest from the start with us, we would have been more than willing to come to an agreement on a price way more than they were under contract for. So maybe if nothing else that will be a lesson for some of you out there and you' think twice being being a scum bag. She made it very clear very fast she would be impossible to work with because nothing she said or wrote on the listing was truthful. That's when I realized I'd have to go straight to the source.
Interesting take on the future of wholesaling. I don't think it dies because of the internet but I do think it evolves. It certainly has over the last 10 years, but the wholesalers I know now are making way more than I ever did due to technology and the ability to scale because of it. I used to hear 10 years ago that it was going to die but it only grew and became stronger. My gut is it will evolve just like the agent world will. Agents are going to face the same kind of adaption to the internet and the need for their services. Agents and wholesalers are very similar in the need for their services so I would think technology will likely have a similar impact on both . A private MLS for agents will likely be something that technology could change pretty quickly if the commissions lose their stronghold or a big enough player comes in to change it. Who knows, adapt or die , right?
Originally posted by @William C.:
Originally posted by @Ian Walsh:So you are right, I skimmed it. I then went back and read about 3/4ths and decided to write this. Maybe I missed more. It doesn't really matter.
As far as this story is concerned it appears that the agent put the property under contract and likely said "if i can flip it out and make 225k before we settle, I will do that". I see flippers and wholesalers do that on the MLS. It is not uncommon. When I used to wholesale, we never used the MLS but that was 10 years ago. If I remember correctly, we looked into the issues arising from this. At the time, there was a legitimate argument that having an agreement of sale was considered a vested interest in the property and therefor could be put on the MLS. I don't know if that wording has become more clear or not over time. We never did it back then, but I do remember looking into it.
Originally posted by @William C.:
Originally posted by @Kate J.:
@William C. Omg as if hubzu is not complicated enougth... Just wait, it will reappear on their website. Contact them directly about violations. I am surprised selling agent is involved, they usually have one that lists hundred of properties (one for entire state).
Not sure what you mean. I involved the selling agent. Shes seems to be on my side here, and she is also the listing agent for about 10 states. So believe you me I was surprised as anyone when she immediately responded to my first email to her on a Friday afternoon, and then again on Monday morning to notify me how to proceed and that she was cancelling the contract.
I understand it's along read, and I understand wanting to skim through and get the cliff notes. But I have been live updating the story as the story has unfolded. I appreciate the input. I just don't see the need to repeat myself every time someone reads the OP, jumps to the bottom and leaves their 2 cents.
I appreciate you taking the time to read the thread. Towards the end I think it's mostly me just repeating myself to those who make comments that have no context because the situation has already changed since OP. Vested interest is exactly that, vested. Meaning you have the right to own the asset.....in the future. The debate will go on forever in my opinion. My issue with this practice is that its lose, lose for the seller, and win win for the wholesaler. Buyer ties up property with agreement of sale and no intent on closing unless they find an end buyer. If they find an end buyer, the seller gets to sell their house, but for far less than what they could have if they had worked with an honest agent or investor. If they don't find and end buyer, the deal falls apart and now seller is stuck with the house and all that time was wasted. Don't get me wrong, I UNDERSTAND ALL DEALS ARE DIFFERENT. I know people will want to jump in and give their example. My point is, that's how the game is taught. Wholesalers, this day and age bring zero value to sellers, the may have in the past, but now they are just the lucky one to get to the seller first and secure the property.
Here a fact I have never heard mentioned before, and pretty much sums up why wholesaling will cease to exist in 5-10 years. Heck, even agents might be gone by then too. The internet has revolutionized the industry, along with many others. Wholesaling made sense 20 years ago when information moved much slower, and its true that they might have 5 or 6 investors standing by to buy up a property. With the internet, a seller could literally take 5 minutes to sign up for Zillow, list their home for $1. Watch all the sharks, good and bad and ugly come running to get a deal. Give it 30 days and review all the offers, and let the market will dictate the price, and they will get top dollar. The first time I ever heard of wholesaling my first question was, why don't they just list the thing on the MLS themselves and see what they can get?? They had no real good answer for me. I get it, some people THINK they cant sell on the MLS, and some people need cash now. Truth is all homes sell on the MLS, and cash offers come in ever day on those homes as well.
So there it is. The internet will be the end of wholesaler as they have existed in the past. And this is just one guys opinion on the whole thing. Call me wrong all you want. Its my thread and this is my opinion.
With all the said in regards to wholesaling on a Macro level. On a micro level, and the deal i'm involved in. It was just lies and misrepresentation from the start. And the seller explicitly prohibits the home to be remarketed, and prohibits the agreement to be assigned or even attempting to assign it, and the seller prohibits the buyer to give access to others prior to actually owning it. So I get it, some deals make sense to be wholesaled, but this is one of them. Let me also be clear that if the agent/buyer/liar had just SIMPLY been honest from the start with us, we would have been more than willing to come to an agreement on a price way more than they were under contract for. So maybe if nothing else that will be a lesson for some of you out there and you' think twice being being a scum bag. She made it very clear very fast she would be impossible to work with because nothing she said or wrote on the listing was truthful. That's when I realized I'd have to go straight to the source.
Originally posted by @William C.:
And you lost me regarding the valuations. The property was originally listed at $150k, legitimately, by the actual listing agent. It was relisted 4 days later by a fake listing agent, acting as if she owned it with an investment group. This was proven to be a lie through a quick title search. The REAL listing agent is aware, and has apologized, and is handling it on her end.
Banks obtain valuations before selling properties and unlike in 2011/12, they're not as undervalued. So it is highly unlikely that a $150k property goes for $225k the next day. Either the $225k is bullscheisse or the $150k was much too low. Some banks have in-house agents (which you indicate this place has) and other banks rely on outside agents they've built a relationship with. My comment implied that if the REAL listing agent was an 'outside agent', then she might have provided a less than honest valuation. Now that you've cleared up she isn't, my next suggestion is that you check any records you can to be sure there aren't code or any other liens on the property. The $75k seems a bit too optimistic.
Originally posted by @Ian Walsh:
Interesting take on the future of wholesaling. I don't think it dies because of the internet but I do think it evolves. It certainly has over the last 10 years, but the wholesalers I know now are making way more than I ever did due to technology and the ability to scale because of it. I used to hear 10 years ago that it was going to die but it only grew and became stronger. My gut is it will evolve just like the agent world will. Agents are going to face the same kind of adaption to the internet and the need for their services. Agents and wholesalers are very similar in the need for their services so I would think technology will likely have a similar impact on both . A private MLS for agents will likely be something that technology could change pretty quickly if the commissions lose their stronghold or a big enough player comes in to change it. Who knows, adapt or die , right?
Originally posted by @William C.:Originally posted by @Ian Walsh:
So you are right, I skimmed it. I then went back and read about 3/4ths and decided to write this. Maybe I missed more. It doesn't really matter.
As far as this story is concerned it appears that the agent put the property under contract and likely said "if i can flip it out and make 225k before we settle, I will do that". I see flippers and wholesalers do that on the MLS. It is not uncommon. When I used to wholesale, we never used the MLS but that was 10 years ago. If I remember correctly, we looked into the issues arising from this. At the time, there was a legitimate argument that having an agreement of sale was considered a vested interest in the property and therefor could be put on the MLS. I don't know if that wording has become more clear or not over time. We never did it back then, but I do remember looking into it.
Originally posted by @William C.:Originally posted by @Kate J.:@William C. Omg as if hubzu is not complicated enougth... Just wait, it will reappear on their website. Contact them directly about violations. I am surprised selling agent is involved, they usually have one that lists hundred of properties (one for entire state).
Not sure what you mean. I involved the selling agent. Shes seems to be on my side here, and she is also the listing agent for about 10 states. So believe you me I was surprised as anyone when she immediately responded to my first email to her on a Friday afternoon, and then again on Monday morning to notify me how to proceed and that she was cancelling the contract.
I understand it's along read, and I understand wanting to skim through and get the cliff notes. But I have been live updating the story as the story has unfolded. I appreciate the input. I just don't see the need to repeat myself every time someone reads the OP, jumps to the bottom and leaves their 2 cents.
I appreciate you taking the time to read the thread. Towards the end I think it's mostly me just repeating myself to those who make comments that have no context because the situation has already changed since OP. Vested interest is exactly that, vested. Meaning you have the right to own the asset.....in the future. The debate will go on forever in my opinion. My issue with this practice is that its lose, lose for the seller, and win win for the wholesaler. Buyer ties up property with agreement of sale and no intent on closing unless they find an end buyer. If they find an end buyer, the seller gets to sell their house, but for far less than what they could have if they had worked with an honest agent or investor. If they don't find and end buyer, the deal falls apart and now seller is stuck with the house and all that time was wasted. Don't get me wrong, I UNDERSTAND ALL DEALS ARE DIFFERENT. I know people will want to jump in and give their example. My point is, that's how the game is taught. Wholesalers, this day and age bring zero value to sellers, the may have in the past, but now they are just the lucky one to get to the seller first and secure the property.
Here a fact I have never heard mentioned before, and pretty much sums up why wholesaling will cease to exist in 5-10 years. Heck, even agents might be gone by then too. The internet has revolutionized the industry, along with many others. Wholesaling made sense 20 years ago when information moved much slower, and its true that they might have 5 or 6 investors standing by to buy up a property. With the internet, a seller could literally take 5 minutes to sign up for Zillow, list their home for $1. Watch all the sharks, good and bad and ugly come running to get a deal. Give it 30 days and review all the offers, and let the market will dictate the price, and they will get top dollar. The first time I ever heard of wholesaling my first question was, why don't they just list the thing on the MLS themselves and see what they can get?? They had no real good answer for me. I get it, some people THINK they cant sell on the MLS, and some people need cash now. Truth is all homes sell on the MLS, and cash offers come in ever day on those homes as well.
So there it is. The internet will be the end of wholesaler as they have existed in the past. And this is just one guys opinion on the whole thing. Call me wrong all you want. Its my thread and this is my opinion.
With all the said in regards to wholesaling on a Macro level. On a micro level, and the deal i'm involved in. It was just lies and misrepresentation from the start. And the seller explicitly prohibits the home to be remarketed, and prohibits the agreement to be assigned or even attempting to assign it, and the seller prohibits the buyer to give access to others prior to actually owning it. So I get it, some deals make sense to be wholesaled, but this is one of them. Let me also be clear that if the agent/buyer/liar had just SIMPLY been honest from the start with us, we would have been more than willing to come to an agreement on a price way more than they were under contract for. So maybe if nothing else that will be a lesson for some of you out there and you' think twice being being a scum bag. She made it very clear very fast she would be impossible to work with because nothing she said or wrote on the listing was truthful. That's when I realized I'd have to go straight to the source.
I couldn't agree more. Die is probably the wrong word to use and "evolves" would be a lot more accurate. Wholesaling as we knew it before, is in fact dead. There will always be opportunity in real estate to buy low and sell high. I'd argue the true wholesalers that are worth their salt, are forced to actually bring value in some shape or form to the table, rather than the "sign, remarket for more, and assign" days. I'd even go as far as rebranding myself as a real estate marketing and lose the wholesaler if I were in the business and planned to be into the future. As the generations before us that did not grow up with technology begin to die off, and it becomes easier and easier for the general public to access vital property information, and reach home buyer directly, the game itself become completely different. I couldn't be happier. It's fascinates me it has take this long to come this far, but in the grand scheme of the things the internet has been around for 20 years which is essentially 20 minutes, and I'm already noticing a shift in the guru model away from the old styles of wholesaling, and coming up with 2019 versions like "Astroflipping". I personally have already began giving homeowners a new and different option to the old "cash now" model, so yea you hit the nail on the head with the adapt or die cliche.
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Originally posted by @Tchaka Owen:
Originally posted by @William C.:And you lost me regarding the valuations. The property was originally listed at $150k, legitimately, by the actual listing agent. It was relisted 4 days later by a fake listing agent, acting as if she owned it with an investment group. This was proven to be a lie through a quick title search. The REAL listing agent is aware, and has apologized, and is handling it on her end.
Banks obtain valuations before selling properties and unlike in 2011/12, they're not as undervalued. So it is highly unlikely that a $150k property goes for $225k the next day. Either the $225k is bullscheisse or the $150k was much too low. Some banks have in-house agents (which you indicate this place has) and other banks rely on outside agents they've built a relationship with. My comment implied that if the REAL listing agent was an 'outside agent', then she might have provided a less than honest valuation. Now that you've cleared up she isn't, my next suggestion is that you check any records you can to be sure there aren't code or any other liens on the property. The $75k seems a bit too optimistic.
this is a good point.. I bought one a few years ago ( very rare that I buy from a wholesaler and this was probably the only one I did that year.. here is how it went.. contacts me says he wants 200k for the property. its a tear down so its lot value.. I say OK write it up.
I do basic due diligence check title before I spend money on permits and plans.. and guess what there is a recorded option for 100k from the actual owner.. I write them back and say.. I just cant do this for moral reasons.. and I know I am in the minority here. as most would what does it matter.. but to me it matters.. this is a single older lady and this is her one asset.. I told the guys hey I will still buy it but you need to pay the lady 180k 100k wholesale fee I just cant be a party to.. so it dies.. they then list it on MLS for 275k and it sits there goes no where just like this property were talking about may never sell for 225k right? So long story short they come back to me.. I run full title lady owes 205k on to the bank so no equity so these guys do all this work and have no clue as to the status of the liens. so now they want the 20k I offered I told them no way. so I bought it for 2k over what was owed.. lady got out of debt.. wholesaler made 2k I built and sold the house for 750k.. and well as is our do as a value add developer we made a profit. This is why I simply do not deal with the wholesalers many of my clients do.. but I don't need to.
