Cash out refi Decision points

Cash out refi Decision points

Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2016 · 145 posts · 61 votes

Hello,

I read these forums from time to time and have found them to be very helpful. I wanted to pose the following scenario to see if anyone has any thoughts, as I am always interested in hearing multiple angles. My wife and I just finished paying off the mortgages on our 4 rental properties in San Antonio. Total equity is roughly $500k-$550k. We are ready for the next step in our investment path, but this is where I am stuck. I do consider my decision point to be a good problem to have, but just looking to bounce some things around.

Option #1: take out a 75% LTV cash out refi and take the money and buy 4 rental properties each. Then take the 4 new properties and do 4 more cash outs and keep repeating this until there is not enough money to buy any more while properties with borrowed cash from cash out refis.

Option#2: take out a 75% LTV cash out refi and take the money and buy as many properties as possible with 25% down. Would be about 10 properties with $40k down on $160k properties. I have a lender who will do as many loans as I need at 75% LTV. Each one would cash flow $350 month.

Essentially, there is little variance between monthly cash flow for option #1 and Option #2, but would it just be more advantageous to do option #2 due to leverage considerations because there would be more properties involved? I'm not doing any major rehabs. I can handle some rehab, but mostly only minor cosmetic versus some major overhaul although I only mention that as an aside, as it is not really important for my decision I don't think.

Please let me know what you think. If you want to throw out other options, then this is what I am here for, too. 

Many thanks!!!!

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Upen PatelPro Member
Lender · Nationwide Lender · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 814 votes
9y

@Travis C. You can do option #1 and get your cash out without any seasoning using Delayed Financing. It would be nuts to pay the private money rate. If you buy with cash (which you can), then within the first 6-months you can do a Delayed Financing which will allow you to take out the lower of the purchase price or the allowable purchase LTV (which depends on the type of property). You get a 30 yr fixed confirming loan. If you and your wife work, then you can each get up to 10 conventional loans (1-4 units), including your primary residence.

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  • Professional Wholesaler · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2015 · 85 posts · 37 votes
    9y

    @Travis C. Definitely a good problem to have haha! I might see how you could potentially avoid origination fees by using option 1; If you are using a loan product on the purchase I am assuming there would be origination fees. By using option 1 it seems you could in the sense avoid that because you would be acquiring with cash from your re-fi. 

    Option 1 seems more favorable, but perhaps there is something I am missing or not accounting for.

  • Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2016 · 145 posts · 61 votes
    9y

    @Paul Rodriguez that is awesome and I knew I posted this here for a good reason. Had not even thought about the origination points!! That is one dynamic to add to my consideration, but the downfall to option#1 is some lost leverage on long term asset gains (not cash flow since both options cash flow roughly the same). Hmmmm thanks!!!

  • Brian PheltPro Member
    Real Estate Broker · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2016 · 234 posts · 85 votes
    9y

    I would have to agree with Paul.  You are going to be in a great position either way, but if you can avoid giving away money that could be used elsewhere thats the route I would recommend.

    Congrats on your progress and best of luck as you continue on your investment journey.  Our market is one of the best for what you are doing.

  • Realtor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2014 · 56 posts · 29 votes
    9y
    Travis Christian , A couple questions. If you go option one, isn't there a period of time you have to wait before doing a cash out refi? Have you considered this into the equation? Wouldn't the cost of a cash out refi be approximately the same as originating a mortgage from the start, thereby eliminating the cost saving advantage? If you were forcing equity into the property by purchasing at an extreme discount or doing decent rehab whereby it would be worth more quickly, I may be inclined to think option one so that you could refi out and have less of your cash tied up in the deal.
  • Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2016 · 145 posts · 61 votes
    9y

    Hi, and thanks everyone for the responses. There will be no seasoning period on the first 4 to the be bought under option 1 because I have owned those properties for between 3-5 years. I may try to go bank financing on the 1st cash outs since they are all paid off.  Where seasoning could come in would be after pulling cash back out of the ones that have been bought with the other original cash out funds. However, I have a private lender willing to work with me out of Austin and there is no seasoning period I do not believe (based on a conversation I had with them a moth ago but reconfirming now). They will amortize the note at 30 years fixed rate around 7.5%. A bit high but I can still cash flow the properties at around $300-350/month which is fine by me. 

    The end game in either option 1 or 2 Icguess is that you acquire as much property as you can, but option 1 uses borrowed money to keep buying entire properties until you are out of money to borrow and option 2 puts down 25% and you acquire many more properties but fees rack up on origination l. Cash flow roughly equal on both options. 

  • Investor · Madison, WI · Member since 2015 · 47 posts · 16 votes
    9y

    What if you took the 75% LTV refi and put the money into one larger property (like an apartment building)? $375-400k would make a great downpayment for a larger property.

  • Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2016 · 145 posts · 61 votes
    9y

    I guess I could do that, but it has simply not been on my radar because I have been so used to SFHs and eager to replicate...Really appreciate it and perhaps I should look into it. 

  • Software Developer · Vidor, TX · Member since 2015 · 922 posts · 639 votes
    9y

    You'll probably be seeing the same returns and financing costs over time if you go either route.  The only difference is taking option 2 will land you 10 more houses, but your money is gone and you now have 14 leveraged properties.

    If you take option one, you'll probably get a check for ~400,000 and if you buy right you can keep hopping that equity, but still have a relatively balanced portfolio in terms of risk.  4 leveraged, 4 paid for.  If you were to subsequently cash out the new four for 4 more, you'd still only be 70% leveraged.

    So I vote for option 1.

  • Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2016 · 145 posts · 61 votes
    9y

    Thanks guys. Very helpful. In it for the long haul and option#1 seems the winner. 

  • Prescott Valley, AZ · Member since 2016 · 7 posts · 5 votes
    9y

    Keep in mind that you can do a "cash out refi" immediately with no seasoning, if you used what is called delayed financing. Many lenders offer it and your situation seems like it would make it very easy. There are rules, but based on what you have written you aren't violating any of them. This may be what your lender in Austin was planning.

  • Upen PatelPro Member
    Lender · Nationwide Lender · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 814 votes
    9y

    @Travis C. You can do option #1 and get your cash out without any seasoning using Delayed Financing. It would be nuts to pay the private money rate. If you buy with cash (which you can), then within the first 6-months you can do a Delayed Financing which will allow you to take out the lower of the purchase price or the allowable purchase LTV (which depends on the type of property). You get a 30 yr fixed confirming loan. If you and your wife work, then you can each get up to 10 conventional loans (1-4 units), including your primary residence.

  • Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2016 · 145 posts · 61 votes
    9y

    I appreciate this discussion. I revert to #1. The means to refi as discussed here are intriguing, as well. 

  • Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2016 · 145 posts · 61 votes
    9y

    @Upen Patel, can we talk sometime?

  • Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2016 · 145 posts · 61 votes
    9y
    Just an update. Refinanced 3 properties and pulled cash out. Refinancing last original rental currently. After cash out on 1st three rentals, we already closed on a property here in San Antonio that was a foreclosure for $166k all cash. Adding new flooring, paint, and plan to rent out for $1400/month and am already moving to pull out cash on this one with conventional 30 year financing. PITI will be about $1050 so we should cash flow $300-350 per month. Will be ready to buy another one in a few weeks after finance closes. Based on my good buy on this one and if I can keep drumming up deals, I think we can keep hopping these for hopefully the next year or so if the opportunities arise. I would like to end up going from 4 rentals to possibly 14-16 in the next year or so, but just depends on market I guess. San Antonio seems to be a good market for this buy, rehab, rent, refi strategy right now.
  • Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2013 · 213 posts · 182 votes
    9y
    Travis Christian At the end of the day it really depends what you're going to do with the money. I'm in the rental space and I target the types of properties that you're looking for and they're not as available as they use to be. I wouldn't rush to leverage all of my properties. This is how many people got in trouble in 08. Even though 75% isn't bad, it's not hard for a market correction to drop you below what you owe.
  • Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2016 · 145 posts · 61 votes
    9y
    Very true. We were just getting started on our first rentals back during the last downturn and I absolutely remember. If/when something happens along the way again, we will ride it out once more I suppose. Not flipping and people need roofs over their heads. Luckily, many of my tenants are military tenants with solid income streams of their own. In it for the long haul and we will all weather storms along the way. That is the one certain.
  • Wholesaler, Rehabber and Landlord · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    I have to agree with @Jonatan Barbera. Less leverage is always better when you are nearing the top of the curve. Real estate moves in cycles and if people can not see that we are very close to the top of the cycle, you will see it on the down side. By then it might be too late.

    75% leverage is not too bad. BUT, I would not leverage everything to that point right now. As interest rates go up, prices will slow and probably start to come down a bit.

  • Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2016 · 145 posts · 61 votes
    9y
    at least it isn't San Francisco!
  • Lender · Palo Alto, CA · Member since 2017 · 142 posts · 91 votes
    9y

    @Travis C. - Could you please point me in the direction of your lender that helped with these cash out Refis? Would appreciate it. thanks!

  • Oakland, CA · Member since 2017 · 133 posts · 58 votes
    9y
    I like option 2 better because it can maximize the purchases, but I would try to purchase properties as fast as I can using both options at the same time. Try option 2 first, in case the lender refuse lend you the money at the end of escrow, that's the time I use option 1 (100% cash) on the same purchase deal. After being turned down by the 1st lender, look for a different lender immediately for the next purchase.
  • Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2016 · 145 posts · 61 votes
    9y

    @upen patel

  • Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2016 · 145 posts · 61 votes
    9y
    @Jay Singh meet @Upen Patel . Sorry I tried to tag above, but my phone browser was acting goofy.
  • Upen PatelPro Member
    Lender · Nationwide Lender · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 814 votes
    9y

    Hey! @Travis C. Thanks for the mention. Hope all is well.

  • Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2016 · 145 posts · 61 votes
    8y
    you are welcome @Upen Patel . Hope all is well!
  • Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2016 · 145 posts · 61 votes
    8y
    Hi Everyone, here I am and it is 2018 and in order to get the good deals in San Antonio, I have gone the route of being a cash buyer using the BRRR strategy except I typically leave some money in the deals after refinancing because I don't buy properties needing entire renovations. Just cosmetic fixes like paint, flooring, and others is the extent of my appetite for now. I am moving to my 3rd new property with this strategy which will give me a grand total of 8 properties overall. So basically, I have been doing option #1, but instead of taking out mortgages in the front end if a purchase, I have been cashing out the last and using the proceeds to buy the next and it is working out well.
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