I currently live in one of the most expensive areas of the country (Bay Area, CA). I work in tech at an amazing company (Facebook) and I am extremely fortunate to have a relatively high salary for my age. Despite this salary and having a large total savings, I am unable to afford a 1 bed/1 bath fixer upper condo for 1+ million (the going rate in this area).
Being in tech I keep an eye on areas that have exponential tech growth and Austin caught my eye. I connected with a coworker in that office for a referral of a broke and realtor in that area and things were great. I had never been to Austin but for 6 months as soon as a property hit the MLS, I would review and debate writing offers. During this period of time 6 properties hit the market that I was very excited about. My interest was in renovated properties that would require little to no work, being remote, I did not want to have the extra stress an outdated property. Out of these 6 offers, all were place on the day of the property hitting the market and the very next day each seller asked for best and final.
The 6 property that I put an offer on, was a duplex that hit the MLS for $419k. I had my realtor and broker check the property out and give me their feedback on wether or not I should more forward. They agreed that it was a great location and I should submit an offer. My offer was accepted for $435k (25%/$110k down, 4.65int). It was a completely renovated, beautiful duplex with no tenants in either side (due to the renovations before sale).
Part of the contingency, I had an inspection which returned some questionable items, like no outlet under the sink for the garbage disposal (one of many small things) and a huge electrical panel swap, estimated at $5k. This was extremely concerning for me at the time but after discussing with my realtor and working with the seller they agreed to fix the issues caught by the inspector and give $5k towards the closing cost for the electrical work.
We closed and I used the same people to list the property for rent, as quick as I could. The property sat for 4 weeks with no interest on either side (after the realtor and broker told me it would be rented instantly - people will say anything while you're buying a property). I became concerned and flew out to Austin to visit the property. I found that the property was extremely dirty and there were no blinds, the renovation was sloppy (paint, tape, rushed worked) but as disappointing as that was, I put the time in and cleaned the property and installed blinds and the next week, two tenants applied.
Then the problems FLOWED in. As soon as I got a tenant there were issues after issues. First, I was notified that there were no smoke detectors in any of the units or rooms and I was liable to do install that ($350 for 8). There were no screens on any of the windows and the tenants wanted screens (understandable - not required $500). I was never told that there were no screens but this is relatively minor. The tenants called and said that no outlets were installed in any of the bathrooms (I didn't notice this when I flew out after closing and it was never included in my inspection - not up to code, $1,250). The electrician found exposed romex wiring that was also not called out on the inspection. Immediately upon one of tenants moving in the water heater went out and needed to be replaced ($800). Undisclosed expenses are starting to add up and I am starting to feel like I am drowning in things that were not told to me. Immediately after replacing the water heater, I get a call that the other unit water heater is out and their heater is out as well (HVAC system from 1994, $4,500) this wasn't called out to me either.
So far I have had:
- Smoke detectors that were missing and extremely overpriced ($350) - not disclosed
- No electrical outlets installed in any bathrooms and wiring not up to code ($1,250) - not discussed
- Window coverings ($400) - not disclosed / not required by law but crummy to not know
- Bad water heater upon purchase ($800) - not disclosed / 2nd one in process of replacing
- Broken HVAC system ($4,500) - not disclosed
- Broken Dryer Outlet called out on Inspection was to be fixed (not fixed)
Total: $7,300 in expenses not disclosed that would have swayed me from purchasing this property. Not to mention an extra $1-2k on misc. maintenance expenses.
I am defeated. I feel taken advantage of being a remote buyer without seeing the property. The seller did not disclose (there's no way they didn't know these problems, while doing a renovation). The inspector failed to note any other issues. The realtor didn't catch them either.
Each day I wake up expecting to see some other large expense, that is creating a financial burden on me. The broker has changed up the tune from saying this is a beautiful property that will rent quickly and be low maintenance from a renovation, to saying that I should expect these expenses from a renovated property and I am being a "new investor".
I feel helpless being remote and that jobs that I paid people to complete were not done correctly and I am paying a high price for them. I bought this property with cashflow in mind but with the undisclosed expenses that have come up immediately after purchasing, I am looking at 3 years before I can break even from cashflow on a $110k down.
My plan is to continue to purchase duplex/fourplexs but this experience has been terrible. I am working with a real estate attorney now to figure out what my recourse may be and I look forward to a week/month/year where there are no large expenses. Is my experience typical?!
You really just need to have someone on the ground that are going to do there due diligence. I think you should keep your head up and just learn from it. I work with a large Investment Brokerage here and could definitely help you out next go around. Let me Know. Bottom line though you just really have to make sure you do your homework. Austin is a very profitable and upcoming market, especially if you're working with the right people!
@James Piercy Ugh...I hate to hear about experiences like this! Long and short, no...this shouldn't be a typical experience if you're working with a dynamite team. I may sound like a broken record sometimes, but I am definitely passionate about the standards that we, as Realtors, have for ourselves. It should NOT be about making a sale...it's about helping educate our clients and advocating for their best interest! Do you mind PM'ing me the name of the inspector you used? Working in Austin, I would definitely be interested to know if you don't mind.
It pains me to hear of anyone feeling like they've been taken advantage of - especially being an out of state buyer. There's just no excuse for that to happen. A few things I do with my non-local buyers that you may consider when talking to future agents: We do video walkthroughs and Facetime tours...anything to help them feel as much "here" as we can. When we are talking rentals - I'm going to give my buyers reports on all the comparable properties that have leased in the last year in the area of the home they are looking for -- where they are in proximity to the property, how long they were on the market to lease, what they leased for compared to list price, etc. Of course during the purchase, I have a core team which includes several top-notch, detailed home inspectors. As good as my home inspectors are, they also aren't specialists though so I also have an HVAC guy, roofer, plumber and electrician who will go out to a home and take a second look at any concerns we may have. I do have a property management company that I refer to, but they also allow me to list the properties for rent instead of their agents (same cost)...and that's been a great way for my clients to have confidence that they have one double checking the other too!
It sounds like you are taking the right steps as a consumer in talking with an attorney about your options. I have a couple great ones here in Austin too. If you need anything at all, don't hesitate to reach out!
Is this typical? Not usually.
That being said, there were a few things that you could have done better. Your have stated some of them, but let me see if I can give you some ideas to fix them.
1) You didn't mention anything about the numbers. First and foremost the deal has to cashflow. At 435k you need to rent each side for 2200 to even think about breaking even, especially in a high property tax state like TX. Don't buy the BS about sub 1% and appreciation. If it don't cashflow don't buy it. Quite frankly if you are having to put out 3 years of profit on 7300, of expenses, the deal sucks.
2) 5k for an electrical panel in a completely renovated 420k Duplex is completely untenable. At that price point, the property should have NOTHING wrong with it. Add to that the missing garbage disposal outlet. That is a good sign of someone who doesn't know how to do a punchlist for renovations. In the future come up with a checklist (read The Checklist Manafesto) and make sure you check EVERYTHING on it. Which leads me to point 3.
If you are investing out of state, and don't have excellent support, cart your butt there and meet them. You did this deal entirely from your chair in CA. You've never been to Austin for any reason. I don't buy the BS that you can invest in a location without ever having been there. So for the price of a plane ticket and 2 to 3 nights hotel, let's say 1500 bucks you risked 110k of your own money on a 440k deal. Save 1500 (10% of your hard earned cash) to lose, what another 7300? Next time slow down, spend the dough to go see the place and establish the relationships to truly make it work.
Finally, stop the pitty party. Stop feeling defeated and taken advantage of. Watch spending money on an attorney. Both the agent and the inspector have no liability no matter what they have said. You signed a document that absolved the inspector of any liability and the broker is not responsible for the condition of the property, only the purchase and sale portion of the deal. Plus, they were probably a sellers agent, with no fiduciary responsibly to you.
Look, I'm not trying to rub salt in your already open wounds. What I am saying is that most of this is preventable. Stop focusing on "I have to invest in Real Estate" and focus on "Is this real estate a good business/ investment decision". Get back to basics.
Stay out of multiple offer situations when you first start, and for good measure stay the heck out of "hot" markets. You got creamed because you got in over your head. 20k over on something that doesn't cashflow properly is an impulse purchase not a level headed business decision.
I would take my next long weekend in Austin, find an excellent inspector (lose the entire group you are dealing with now) and spend 2 to 3 hours going over the house from top to bottom and getting to know the property. Once you know what you are in for, then you can decide if you want to keep it or dump it.
FWIW, I bought a SFR 4 months ago, and just had to put a new AC in. Completely my mistake for not insisting that it be pulled apart and looked at. The roof I know about (2 years max before replacement), but was blindsided by the AC. I won't make that mistake again.
You will do just fine in the future. Everyone effs up a deal. You got yours out of the way sooner than others. Keep plugging along, you'll get it.
Hope that helps.
“Fully renovated” in today’s market means the front door is a trendy color, the cabinets are probably white, subway tile dark floors. At least that is my experience lately. Right before Christmas I toured a bunch of open houses, each was fully renovated/flipped and each needed 5-25k in near term repairs (1-3 years). This included work that was complete, but so poorly completed that it would fail within that time period.
I’ve just come to accept that when I purchase a new property I’m going to have 5-10k minimum in I guess what you’d call takeover costs. This could be evictions, repairs that are necessary but covered up, replacement vs “repairs”. Same thing sort of happens when tenants change an unknown issue comes up that was never an issue with the previous tenant. You’ve got to have reserves for this reason.
The great news is you’ve replaced the water heaters, the hvac and fixed some electrical issues. So while those are costs, the also increase value, it’s not burnt up money. I’m really interested in your last point, a three year break even. I’m assuming you’re just using gross rent for that calculation, if that is net rent you shouldn’t be complaining at all.
A few of those items should have never passed a permit inspection, which I imagine permits were pulled to complete the renovations? Smoke/COs, outlets in the bathroom, outlet under sink for disposal, even exposed wire if it shouldn't be exposed all would have been called out by the inspector. I would make certain the rehabber took out permits and did everything correctly. You may very well be in for more headaches, if he didn't.
It can get better. You needed a better inspection, I have a guy who spent his whole career as a general contractor so he notices a lot of the building code issues immediately. I am sure BP has some recommendations on finding a good guy for your area.
@James Piercy I think what you'll struggle with is that there's no reason this couldn't have happened to you if you did buy an older SFR in the Bay Area, San Diego, Iowa, or anywhere else. You just had a bad inspection and it doesn't sound like the highest and best use of your time is becoming a home inspector :-)
That said, if you picked the right area and the right property it's $7,300. Big deal. You picked Austin instead of Memphis probably because you think the area has more potential for appreciation. If that's what you're banking on (at least in part) then the $7,300 won't matter over the 15-20 year timeframe.
So you learned from your n=1 sample size. You now have a heightened sense of what you have an inspector (specifically) look for the next time you buy a property. Lessons learned with two units are much less expensive than lessons learned with 5+ units.
If there's any lesson to be had it's: "when I flew out *after* closing".
Not trying to minimize $7,300 but you'll usually find something wrong, some issue, some hiccup, etc. post-closing.
@James Piercy I made probably that much in mistakes on my first rental, and I bought it locally. The problem was just that I was new and didn't know what I was doing. The problem is squared (at least) when buying remotely.
It's gotten better with every property since then, so don't expect this experience to continue so long as you're adjusting how you do things based on what you've learned. Three general suggestions:
(1) The first time you work with people, go meet them and do some of the work in person. Your trust shouldn't be given - it should be earned.
(2) In the data/software/hardware engineering field, we often deal with clear criteria and clear outcomes. Real estate is the opposite - it's all shades of good or bad. Every line item (including "Renovation Expense" for a newly-renovated property you just bought) has a range. It's imprecise.
(3) Reconsider your criteria for what makes a "good" investment. Maybe you didn't mean it this way, but your comment about needing 3 years to break even on cashflow is alarming - you should have around that much budgeted for maintenance and CapEx every year. You don't need to hit 1% to get a good current return on your $110k in high value markets, but it's got to be in the ballpark.
You're paying for education - now put the education to good use!
On the bright side, eventually you will fix everything and the. You won’t have to worry about it anymore!
Wow, I am sorry you had a bad experience. In the end, the responsibility still lies with you, you did buy it.
Get a team where you want to invest.
Or team up with someone and JV with them on some places, make sure they have skin in the game too. It will help you invest out of state and build their portfolio at the same time.
@James C. is on the money with his evaluation.
Most important point is you must put together a solid team on site and it is imperative that you physically be on site to inspect the property yourself before you buy. Trust should never be a part of your investment policies.
The dirty unit and missing blinds would bother me. But old things break. You can’t catch everything. I think you are wasting more money talking with attorneys and maybe playing a little bit of a victim. Writing offers on homes in a city you’ve never been to? Could be way way worse.
@Brian Pulaski having done a bunch of rehabbing in that market and never again.. permits are not often pulled for a lot of what he is talking about.. subs are not required to be licensed that's a huge problem
Also building codes in TExas are weak one really needs to be aware of what your buying there.. next thing will be soil and foundation issues.
@James Piercy you may want to re think Texas as a market for someone in CA.. your paying some of the highest property tax rates in the US.. and your paying some of the highest income tax rates in the US .. I think Texas makes much more sense for those that live there and don't have income tax to pay. Although with max leverage you probably wont be making that much profit to worry about tax's but in general.. Bruce Norris sold a bunch of his CA portfolio and went to Texas he has a great talk about it.. how it was not what he expected and he sold and came right back home.
so far what you mention is just what to expect in areas were your looking at homes that were built for rental purposes short cuts all over the place..
but do go look at anything you buy again.. and walk the property with the Home inspector they will be more thorough when your there. And just be glad its only limited to this.. when you first started out I thought you were going to be talking about expansive soils and your doors wont close and its 5k to fix the foundation and repaint on top of it etc.. which is very common in texas.. EVERY single property I rehabbed there and I did over 20 needed some form of foundation remediation. Just not keen on that market long term unless I lived there and could get smoking deals to mitigate property tax's Hail damage and foundation issues.
Another California investor taken for a ride. Not the first or last so don’t feel too bad.
Never buy a property sight (and smell) unseen. These type of expenses on a renovated property are unacceptable. I had a water heater go out a week after closing and got the seller to pay. No screens, outlets or smoke detectors in the bedrooms is a major inspection mistake. Nobody reputable would miss that. Hold the inspector accountable.
Next time hop on a plane and be there for the walk through. What is a flight, $400?
It is only money. You learned your lesson, just don’t make the same mistake twice and you will be fine.
@James Piercy Sorry to hear about your situation. Be sure to rate on every site possible the people you were dealing with. At any rate you put out 110K cash. I would start looking in California for flip or buy and holds if you are going to put that much money up front. Many deals that you can drive to and see for yourself whats going on. Many deals.
For all future buyers, a home inspection is never a guarantee for a problem free property!!!! I would say it’s good for roof leak check or foundation check, but everything else is 80% on luck! Know the history of the house or the owner! If it’s a owner occupied home, it usually have been care for to some degree. However, if the owner have been living in it for 10 plus year, I know for sure there are deferred maintenance items! If it’s a flip, you should know things are done on the cheap side! Those ikea type cabinets look good in person or on pictures, but never practical!!!!
I always tell my clients to expect 10% of collected rent to be spend on expensive because eventually you will hit big ticket items. If you are looking at tech growth, Oakland is a better place to be. However, I wouldn’t rely on this if I were you. The last thing to depend on is tech, especially when you work in tech too. If that goes south, your job and investments are down the drain. With that said, I am currently in love with Oakland potentials near BART.
I don’t know much about Texas at all, had never been. I am just surprise to see how different it is from California. No smoke detector will not fly with lenders in California.
@James Piercy So sorry to hear about that. And, no, it shouldn't go like that if you have a good team on the ground in the local market. I can't tell you the number of deals I blew up because there was something about the property that bothered me.
My most recent experience was with a townhouse I found for an international client. It's in an area I really like. Our offer was accepted and I scheduled an inspection during the option period.
The inspector noted that the townhouse had one of those Federal Pacific breaker boxes that are a known fire hazard. On top of that, the wiring in the house was aluminum, another fire hazard. And it didn't instill confidence that the inspector noted some burned wiring in the attic.
I spent the last couple of days of the option period trying to figure out how to save the deal. The quotes I received to replace the breaker box and re-wire the house ran between $14,000 and $20,000. I asked the seller to come down on the price because of these obvious defects, but he wouldn't budge. So I blew up the deal because there was no way I was going to allow my client to buy this firetrap.
The only solace I can give you is that this is a learning experience, and you won't make the same mistakes again. The first house I ever bought for myself taught me some lessons that follow me even today. Because of that house, I will never buy a house with a completely finished basement because all the utilities and ductwork are behind the drywall. And I will never buy from a seller who is a do-it-yourselfer because they always screw things up.
I think you need to spend more time in Austin.
I'm sorry all this has happened to you or if you feel like you were taken advantage of...
If you need to cut expenses hop an overnight flight. Spend the day, take the last flight out. If you're going to spend $400-$500K you'd better know your neighborhood inside and out.
Especially as an investor, you need to have looked at 25 or 100 houses before buying one. Go on a Sat/Sun and hit all the opens all over the city. See what the other houses look like. Once you are in the option period, go in all the rentals around where you are buying...see what the competition looks like, see what the rates are.
Have you talked to the inspector? Smoke detectors are on the inspection report? Is it missing? Were they called out? Did they get hot water?
Not sure how old the house is, but no outlets in the bathroom is weird? As a realtor/broker that's probably not something I'm looking for, but I think a good inspector would catch that or call it out. Not sure they were always required. How old is the house?
Is the flipper reputable or fly by night? Might talk to them about it too? Obviously some will say sale is done, see you later, but some have a reputation to uphold in the area, and might come back to fix/update or help you.
Did you get a home warranty? Fairly standard in my market, but in multiple offer situations we do see it go away frequently. You do have the option to pay. That might help with water heaters and HVAC units. Did your inspector note the age on the reports of these big ticket items? If they're old...like more than about 8 years, they could go out at any time. Did they note the brands? Do you know which brands tend to last longer than others?
I know $7300 sounds and feels like a lot of money, but it is probably something you should budget for now and in the future. Budget for vacancy now and in the future. Austin is very transient. It would not surprise me if you have turnover every year....so you might have one month vacancy and one month rental fee.
You might want to use a consultant as well if you want to be hands off and outsource all your due diligence. Pay another realtor or two to give you an opinion on lease times and rates for that specific property while you are in option.
I don't want to throw your realtor or inspector under the bus, but I think you have to be aware sometimes of who you use....and how they talk....I hear a lot of realtors for example...say stuff they shouldn't....that's a solid house....that foundation is solid...I'm sure I can rent it for X..... is X at the top of the range you see on the CMA, at the bottom, in the middle? What do you think the numbers are? I try to be very very conservative with my numbers, but many are very very optimistic....
Hopefully you get the fixes made...they last....and you get some great tenants who will stay forever, never call, never complain, take care of the place like it's theirs...and you start cash flowing soon.
By the way...can you work remotely? Can you spend a week in Austin in a sleeping bag in the house if it is vacant? Can you stick a sign in the yard and have open houses every day while you're there working? You might do better to meet the tenants yourself. Get to know your property. Get to know the neighborhood.
The old Warren Buffett saying comes to mind: if you can't identify the pasty at the poker table, then it is you....
We have all been there to some extent. I have been for sure...
There is asymetry in information in some transactions (they know more than us, or share less info). Interests diverge... We just don't have enough info or are at some disadvantage (like being far away).
It sounds like you may have gotten the short end of the stick being the the absentee buyer from silicon valley (next time--tell them you are in waste management with vague references to possible Soprano style ties... leave the FB word out of it).
They are looking to match a duplex with some issues with the right buyer and one from out of state (from highest housing market in the country) shows up......may not even get a good look...hmmm (so what are the rules to this poker thing again? and how much can I bet?)....
There seem too many things wrong with the place or on the edge of going out. They should have shown up from an inspection, buyer's agent, etc.
But you can surmount them all with some good professional management on the ground.
Of course, you also play a role being on the outside looking in from afar. Perhaps you could find a better deal a couple of hours East in the Central Valley and get to build some relationships with people in the industry (but Austin is probably hipper than Stockton). You could drive over, too, in CA.
What is next? I like how Dave Ramsey just calls it a tax (on making a dumb move) or tuition.
Your Austin deal was an entire seminar on how not to buy a multi-unit property.
And some of those "educational" products for real estate run 50K+ and you don't even get a property out of it.
So bright side, as everyone mentions, you learned alot, got your first place, and have a better idea of how to proceed (or slow down).
Best of luck!
@James Piercy , This looks like a big hit, but hopefully a one-time hit.
I'm assuming that you have a buy and hold approach. What do you long term numbers look like? (Are you using the Rental Calculator in the BP Pro Tools?) How much do you have set aside each month for vacancy, repairs and capex?
Even if you get hurt on this deal, you can turn this into a win, IF you use it as an opportunity to learn the fundamentals of the business. You will remember the lessons and hard burn them into your mind. But only if you use this as a chance to study the fundamentals of investigating, negotitating, renovating, managing, , evaluating ongoing ROI, tax strategy, etc. If you instead treat this as a speculative investment instead of a tangible business like your day job, then you will be much more open to risk of being blindsided.
I saw people recommending a new inspector if you decide to buy in Austin again, but make sure you get a new property manager as well. Trying to rent a dirty place is unrealistic and unprofessional. Also, though this isn't an issue in your current situation, be sure not to buy a "down house"--a house where the land slopes towards the house or you'll forever have water problems...which turn into foundation problems. That was my first house buying experience. Though I was warned, I just didn't listen. I totally agree with flying out some, even if it's just to practice looking at houses with your agent. Does what they think you'd like match up to your expectations? Do they seem knowledgeable about the property and area? Are they able to find properties that fix your needs (even if they don't fit your numbers). If they can't show you acceptable properties in person, you certainly don't want to work with them remotely! And I agree with the suggestion above about looking at the property using FaceTime or Skype or something (once you've found a good agent). Good luck!
Unfortunately home inspectors aren't usually very useful. They roll through their basic check lists and look for trivial things so they can make a list. Some are much better than others but at the end of the day they aren't qualified to tell if you your HVAC system or water heater are going to fail. They should have caught the missing smoke detectors and lake of outlets in the bathroom because those are the trivial items that are usually on their checklist. For the major systems they will generally tell you the age if it's available and you can base your decisions on that (if you have a 12 year old HVAC system or water heater expect to replace it soon).
Unless you have unbiased boots on the ground I don't understand investing in a market you aren't familiar with. You paid more from the property than any of the local guys and your costs to repair and manage will be higher than theirs because they can either do things themselves or have people in place already. On a $400k+ deal I would have hopped on a plane for the weekend and gone out to the property and laid my own eyes it because pictures don't tell the entire story. I'd also spend some time walking and driving around the immediate area to make sure it is what you think it is. I see out of state investors come into my market and pay stupid prices and it makes me laugh because I know those are often the people that are going to be selling to me at a discount in a few years because they have no idea what they're getting into. People always overestimate rents and under estimate expenses. Owning a house is expensive over time, it's not as simple as saying gross rent minus your mortgage taxes and insurance = profits. I have plenty of houses that I've spent $7k on repairs/capex this year. Old cast iron sewer lines go bad, HVAC systems have to be replaced, roofs have to be replaced, tenants need to be evicted and you get back a trashed unit full of crap. This is a business of calculated risk and expenses even out over time but you cannot always tell when and on what you will spend your money on. I just got back one of my apartments after an eviction, at this point I'm out 3 months rent due to non-payment and the time the eviction took. It'll be 4 months when it's rented again. I paid $800 to my attorney. I need to (well I need to pay for...) replace every interior door, patch 6 very large dry wall holes (think kicked in walls), retexture half of the unit (due to the size of the drywall repairs), repaint the entire unit, new flooring for the entire unit, replace 2 broken windows, haul off 30 yards of furniture/household crap/misc debris plus whatever odds and ends I didn't/couldn't see on my initial walk through when the Sheriff did the lockout. That's an inexpensive $700/month apartment and between the lost rent, the eviction and the repairs I'm losing a full year's gross rent. Luckily I have many others that offset that expense so it gets chalked up to the cost of doing business.
As far as recourse I doubt you have much. Generally a home inspection contract limits the inspector's liability to the amount paid for the inspection. Next time have a good contractor walk the property, they'll be able to spot bad work.
@James Piercy how did the broken HVAC not show up on the inspection report? For that kind of money and headaches, down the road it may be better to just go the turnkey route, at least for your first one.
Plus since you’re already out of state, it won’t make a huge difference and you’ll be able to buy a lot more rentals a lot more quickly.
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