@Ryan Mullin I suspect virtually every wholesaler in Indy has their hands on these oceanpointe deals and many realtors.
I have seen this play before only not to the magnitude of what Morris was able to pull off here..
his model is gross misrepresentation when you look at his marketing materials.. I have seen enough civil complaints over the years in various iterations so that I could basically write the summons and complaint myself..
I sure hope the Indiana authorities stand up and do something here.. there have been hundreds of investors injured in this scheme created by Morris.
@Ryan Mullin to Morris investors who might be reading this.
I have worked with Ryan and Ashley Mullin for over 15 years they understand the space..
I know there have been a lot of fine PM's offer to help and I was happy to see the PM community rally to help the
Morris victims.. It will take a village to get this straightened out and many properties are beyond salvage etc.
So this in my mind is a testament to the Indy spirit in the PM arena.. !!!
So many critics and so little time!
As to the original question of whether to buy: Who cares who took a bath on it, the property is the property. As mentioned, get title insurance, as always.
As the $110k sales price, maybe, maybe not. Here, if someone bought three properties in one closing for $150k total, the transaction shows on the land records as $150k on Each sale.
Is there any way OP didn’t buy it and was just another middle man for some sucker...I mean investor?
Just want to chime in on comment from @Jay Hinrichs - @Ryan Mullin and Ashley Mullin are great as is Steve Lehman that works with them. @Ross Denman is also very knowledgeable and has helped alot of people. There are some very accomplished people who have pitched in to assist in this whole mess. There is a great community of people in Indy and they are providing alot of support and help to those in need.
Jay has also been very good to help many investors make sense of this.
Originally posted by @Ryan Mullin :Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
@Ryan Mullin you don't see any problem with the history on this property? It looks like three wholesalers passed it around, all making quick cash. Oceanpointe paid more than any of them for the property, most likely buying as a proxy for an out of state investor. How is it that Oceanpointe made the city worse and somehow all the wholesalers are innocent? Those wholesalers did NOTHING to improve the city. They just made fast cash, falsely inflated property values and looked the other way.
Just because everyone participated doesn't make it right. Locals need to take a stand on wholesaling too. People need to buy these properties and rehab them. Local home owners or investors that are buy and hold - not more fast cash flippers.
I never said that...
1. Yeah the history on the property is weird. No argument there. Frankly I see so much of this I'm 100% desensitized to it.
2. Thats what wholesalers do... They are middle men. Agree with it or not thats what they do. I have my opinion on wholesaling in general and specific wholesalers here in town.. I could go on and on and on about that subject. But I won't. that would be a different thread. I was simply stating that there is no "hiding" going on. You Mention Brett who is a stand up guy and does a ton of good business and actually brings value to the RE community and I know this for a fact because I buy properties from him and the end result is rehabbed house. I could give you at least a dozen examples of deals that I have done with him. He is a broker and does everything by the book on the record majority on MLS. He also runs a podcast and had Clayton Morris on his show... not hiding or doing anything wrong legally or ethically IMO. You also mentioned Andy's entity and he came on the thread and straight up said it was him. Not hiding.
3. I am that guy that rehabs properties and offers them to home owners and buy and hold investors. and I don't really use wholesalers unless they close on the properties with there own money and disclose fees etc..
4. This isn't the first group that came to Indy and thought they were hot sh*t and could pull the wool over the eyes of us Indiana folk and get over on everyone from the municipal government all the way down the line to the out of state investors that line up to get these "deals" that magically get pumped out 20 - 50 a month in a town that barely has that many decent deals total. Ive seen this happen over and over and over. IMO you have to look the out of state investors roll in this too. I can scroll back and start reading Jay Hinrichs comments warning people about this before OP even started.
A lot of the locals that end up wholesaling these deals don't know or care what the end result is. I agree a lot of the time it adds NO value to the city or the economy or society in general. I know lots of brokers that fit under the same category. I know lots of buy hold investors as well that couldn't give 2 craps about providing quality housing and improving communities. and all they care about is there bottom line (which is funny to me because they make way less money slum lording then doing it right). Local and out of state. Again... I could go on a on about all of this. This whole ocean point thing doesnt need to be a witch hunt. Its waaaay to obvious who are the criminals here. Like.. not slightly un-ethical. Straight stealing. Criminal. I mean the guy left a death threat on a voice mail of a local PM for a post on BP!
The original post was more about "should I buy from oceanpointe?" and basically I said no. or lowball them out of principle.. which I should add to that make sure you use a really thorough title company if you do.
Honestly.. Inventory is at an all time low and people need deals. If I buy a property from a bad person because I need a deal to keep my company going and keep my guys working does that make me a bad person too???? Im participating... ?
Brett may be a stand up guy, but he made $55,000 selling this property to Oceanpointe. The place is probably worth $30,000 at best. Is that ethical behavior for a licensed broker? There is no way Brett can argue he didn't know what was going on. He knew the property was worth a fraction of what he sold it for (he is an expert in property values). He knew Oceanpointe was unloading these on out-of-state investors who were getting a bad deal (it was common knowledge when this deal took place). He could get implicated with Oceanpointe or could lose his broker license over ethical violations. I am not reporting him, but some of these angry investors will be out for blood.
I see no problem with buying from Oceanpointe, provided the price is right and the deal is clean. In fact, the best thing for Indy would be for local buy-and-hold investors to get control of these properties. But only at a discounted price relative to the mess they are taking on. The worst thing that could happen here is for more wholesalers to swoop in, because it will just start the cycle all over again.
The answer is local people like you that do real value add rehab, so I think you are part of the solution, not the problem. We will have to agree to disagree on Brett and his role here.
I am local and grew up in Indiana. Really appreciate all information and opinions you guys provided. My goal as an investor is to BRRRR and hold my properties for at least 15 years.
@Wayne Brooks Thank you for expanding on the sale price. In this market an investor could pick up 3 "rent ready properties".. and fall into the trap that hurt people.
Thank you Jay and Ritch for the kind words! If we can help any MI/op investors, we certainly will! Currently working with a few that have salvageable properties and advised some just to dump and move on.
@Joe Splitrock I don't know but I don't think they paid any 55k markups... I have no idea about this deal really, I couldn't find anything that matches up with the info here. but, If Brett did something wrong then the entire RE community is guilty of it too. Including the city of Indianapolis. Not trying to argue, and I DO get your point, trust me. (I will chime in on the next wholesaling thread I see).
Brett and his company are great and bring a lot of value to investors. I would even recommend to the original poster Jaron, to work with Brett to get a deal.
Is there any chance that OP did what Wayne Brooks said is done in Florida, buying multiple properties in one bundle, and then they each get reported at a higher price? That could explain the $110k OP supposedly paid for this.
I'm doubting that's what happened, btw. Just wondering if that's possible in Indianapolis.
And having met with some of the very helpful people on this thread, I can say that they are not the ones causing any trouble there. Also, everywhere I go in Indy, everyone I talk to says that Brett and his company are on the up-and-up. I keep hearing, "They're good guys." I've met with them, and it seems to be true. Sure, they need to make a profit like anyone else. I bet we could find a lot of examples where OP overpaid for properties, while they were simultaneously overcharging their buyers for their work and results.
There was recently a former OP property for sale in Fountain Square wasn't there? I could be wrong about this, but if I recall correctly, it had been "done" for an investor / flipper who found out only after the project was "done" that actually, lots of crucial work on major components (I think chimney was one of them) had not been done at all! OP had apparently just done whatever flashy cosmetic stuff they could do, and then put it on market even though they had not addressed those major structural component problems. And then the potential buyers' inspectors kept finding major things that hadn't been fixed. So they kept backing out. Seems to be a common story. I hope whoever bought that property a few months ago will be able to get those structural things done and still make a nice profit.
Joe...... Ease up on wholesalers in general. There are bad ones but your sweeping comments are not enlightened nor appreciated.
More than anything, from the investors that keep walking through my doors, almost ALL of them for the last 6-8 weeks have mentioned Oceanpointe/Morris. Not 1...not 2...ALL of them. Even more interesting...only HALF of them are on BiggerPockets...
For me, the most heartbreaking thing is the black-eye it gives a great community and better city. @Ryan Mullin said it best by describing it as a "plague" on the city. We have taken in dozens of former OP/Morris clients to help them bail water out of their metaphorical boat.
Indianapolis is a great city full of (mostly) honest and hard-working people, and a fantastic place to invest in real estate. I would encourage those who aim to disparage the city and those who operate within it, to observe how everyone else is taking care of the clients who were the hardest hit. We take great pride in the city, but more pride in how we serve our clients.
I have no input on deals done that screwed investors but I want to point out that I have purchased a number of properties in Indianapolis from certain wholesalers and they have treated me right every single time. They even passed along a discount once that they negotiated down from the seller to me. They could have just kept it for themselves.
All I want to point out is that not ALL wholesalers are a blight on a city that has been really improving.
Oceanpointe has re-invented itself as Freeportinvest.com. Operating out of the same two markets: Jacksonville and Indianapolis.