HVAC vs Mini split system
Hello,
I am remodeling my multi family house (3 flats) to modern. Currently has window A/C and radiator 2 of the units. One of the unit already has central AC.
I’m really interested in HVAC, however no existing ductwork on 2 of the units. If I need to do HVAC have to demolition ceiling, I’m okay with that. But is it worth it or split system work the same? Cost?
would split system work the same heating and cooling? I live in Chicago area I need split system to work heating the same as the cooling. Would it look modern with split system. How about in long run with split system. Any suggestions? Also any referrals who can install, with great cost.
Thank you!
Word on the street is that Split systems (common in . . . . a LOT of places other than the US) operate at a lower energy consumption rate per heating unit and cooling unit. Means, they draw significantly less electricity to cool or heat than an electric-powered HVAC unit. They are also simpler over the life of the unit to maintain because there are just three main components instead of four(+) with HVAC.
It would definitely be something to consider IMO.
@Rahel Ketema we just added mini splits to one of our units in our 180 yr old property in PA.
A BIG advantage of these is that we didn't have to fully open walls or run ducting to place heating/Cooling units on both floors. The disadvantage is that the indoor units are a bit large but if you place them nicely they'll blend in to any room.
Another advantage is the upfront costs are much less than a traditional AC system. In my market (lehigh valley PA) I can get this done for around 5k or less including the units, materials and labor. Chicago is likely going to cost more.
I give a +1 for the mini split option. We will put a similar system at in our other units when it is time to replace hvac on those.
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@Rahel Ketema it is unusual for you to need to really demo the ceiling to install central heat/AC. Most 3 units have a central hallway all the way down the middle of the unit. Typically, the HVAC technician will install the heater in an old closet or pantry near the rear of the building and run the ductwork through the bedrooms. They can then T off at good spots that are mostly hidden in the hallway to reach the other rooms. I have seen this setup many times.
I would guess that you could get this done for 6-10k per unit for the heat and you would probably need to tack on 2.5k per AC unit. I am sure you can also get much higher quotes, but this is about what I have seen on the ground in these Chicago 3 units.
Are you planning on keeping the radiators? One disadvantage of mini-splits is their inability to work effectively at extreme low temps, which we are bound to get a handful of times in Chicago.
Russell W
I want to get rid of the radiator they are way too big taking lots of space, very old and accord places.
Mini splits are very common everywhere but in North America. The advantages of mini splits is their ease of installation and low power consumption. The disadvantage is that they require boxes that hang on the wall and many Americans don't care for that look. Also, they are definitely zone units in that with multiple rooms you need multiple units or least multiple heads for the units. I have spent lots of time in places that had mini splits but don't own any properties that have them. My HVAC people said they are troublesome to service and keep clean as they don't have the simple filters to change like conventional systems do. In most instances they aren't less costly but they do provide a solution for difficult installation challenges. I was recently considering adding mini splits to a property but decided against it and will stick with the window units.
@Rahel Ketema - Like @John Warren mentioned you likely wouldn't have demo the whole ceiling to install ductwork typically we'd just have to build out soffits to surround the ductwork around a pre-existing wall running down the center or side of the house depending on the layout.
A lot of your situation depends on the layout of your units and available space. Mini-splits are typically a bit more expensive but are super helpful in tighter situations or in areas where you want to keep demo to a very minimum.
I have a couple of good HVAC subcontractors that we could recommend. Feel free to reach out and I can provide contact info.
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Contractor IL (#TGC116360)
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@Jonathan Klemm
Thank you so much. Yes please refer me.
@Will Fraser thank you so much.
@Ryan Chatman
Thank you Ryan.
@John Warren thank you!
If it were me, I would go with an HVAC system. It may cost more upfront but will save you on the back end and increase the value of the property. I just quoted a client in NJ for a 2 unit home for and HVAC system and it was around 25-30,000. As others have said, no you wouldn't open the ceiling. HVAC contractors will use soffits and closets to run the duct work. In regards to the splits, as per my HVAC sub, you would need a unit in each room. On the outside of the house it will look like a maze with all of the pipes. They need to connect with one anther and to the unit supplying them. If I remember correctly, its 3 different lines that are run. You would probably also need to upgrade your electrical service as well. Those splits are good for offices or studio's. The HVAC system is a nice clean look and very efficient.
Thank you. Makes sense.
@Rahel Ketema
Mini split is great. Just did 3 units with them. Low impact on the building, more efficient, often cheaper. Yes you can do heating and cooling.
You can do one compressor and tap into multiple parts of the house from the outside if needed. Then you have a blower in that room with its own thermostat.
So 1 compressor and count how many blowers you want for your house.
You reach the rooms outside with ducting.
Ducting is the 1/2 the size of a rain gutter and you can paint the ducts to match the current exterior. Duct is maybe not the right word exactly because they just cover the refrigerant line.
I had my workers paint them before install on the ground though have seen people do it later which is silly
Note:if it’s a multi you will probably need 1 compressor per unit
I also have installed HVAC in buildings. Huge systems, I now choose split system. Congrats on the renovation, you’ll love it.
I have a four plex with ceiling heat and window units for AC built in 1970. The ceiling heat went out in one unit two years ago so I was faced with something similar, either HVAC, baseboard heaters/window units, or mini split. I went ac/heat mini split. It has worked so well I installed another one this year and plan to install one every year in the remaining units. My tenants love them and I was able to bump rent. 1 bed 1 bath 650 square feet apartment is easily (according to two tenants) cooled and heated with one head in main living area. 12000 BTU model. One issue with the splits is that even though the install is easy you still need a professional to vacuum the lines.
@Rahel Ketema
I would recommend the mini split option. There are even some DIY units on the market which make it very use to do without an hvac tech. I did my own home this summer for cooling using a Mr Cool unit on the main floor to cool almost 1,000 sq ft and it worked great and was really quiet too. Much better than any window unit imo and cheaper than adding an A/C to our furnace.
@Rahel Ketema
I work in the commercial HVAC world as a salesman for a major manufacturer in the US and I have sold many residential furnace splits and ductless split systems in NJ/NYC, so temp wise similar to Chicago.
Everyone has provided some good points and some to ponder.
The upfront cost is going to vary based on the heat load of your space and the layout. That’s going to impact the installation labor cost, the equipment cost and number of units needed.
Getting input from a contractor or engineer is an important step for a reliable system.
Both systems use electricity to power for cooling (compressors).
I would really do a cost comparison of Kw/hr versus $/therm of heat. Typically in northern states the cost for natural gas is way cheaper than electricity so over the life of the system your utility bills most likely will be cheaper with gas heat.
Ductless split systems use electricity to power in heating mode. So electrical might need to be upgraded. Also, these systems derate depending on manufacturer after 20degF. Meaning you might need a system 2x 3x the size of cooling because it’s sized for heating mode. Which means more $$$.
The bonus of ductless split systems is you can chose heat pump style or heat recovery. Heat recovery mode, you can do simultaneously hearing and cooling. Most often used in swing months. But both feature modulating compressor speeds so variable cooling which can save on electrical, again more so in the swing months.
As you have heard the positive of ductless systems is that the refrigerant lines are smaller than ductwork so they are great for installation in much older building because there is less intrusion of the structure for installation. However, split systems are like large lego sets and the biggest margin for error with this system is reliant on a properly installed system. The more time and material required, the more risk, impacting the reliability of the system.
There’s more that goes into which type of system to select and why but I hope I provided some useful information nonetheless.
Best of luck!
@Ryan Chatman
Interesting im also in the lehigh valley, where i work at i see mostly window units if there is no option for central AC what kinda cost for repairs do you see over time and how often do repairs even come up?
@John Summerhays The system is relatively new (3 months). I can't speak on the capex for maintenance, but for cooling it has been great with no issues, we'll see how it holds up over the winter.
True, your window units are always going to be most common here when there is no central cooling. We elected to do a built in system because this unit was a full gut with nicer finishes and we were increasing rents to the top of the market.
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@Shane Lafleur hit on a really good point @Rahel Ketema. All of your mechanical systems are interconnected, and you will want to know from your electrician if you will need to upgrade the service no matter which direction you go. In some municipalities, this won't be clear although they may flag this and then ask you to do this retroactively. This can open up a can of worms if you are working on an older plaster building if you have to start re wiring.
@Rahel Ketema Hello.
I have experience installing and working with both HVAC & mini-splits.
I did a complete gut and rebuild on my 1994 furnace & cooler - all new internals within the existing chassis.
I also installed a Daiken mini-split in my THOW/ADU. The system runs great and I see an 90% cost savings on monthly operating costs. VERY likely due materials used in the ADU & the much smaller footprint.
The true value is going be that you could install the mini yourself and only pay to have the system charged. Cost me $185 vs. $1200 for the approximately 5 hrs of labor.
Update: I just had one of my mini splits leak into an interior wall creating some damage to my awesome 1912 Craftsman. Inconclusive why. So I am now less excited about them in general:)
Quote from @Ryan Chatman:
@Rahel Ketema we just added mini splits to one of our units in our 180 yr old property in PA. A BIG advantage of these is that we didn't have to fully open walls or run ducting to place heating/Cooling units on both floors. The disadvantage is that the indoor units are a bit large but if you place them nicely they'll blend in to any room.
Another advantage is the upfront costs are much less than a traditional AC system. In my market (lehigh valley PA) I can get this done for around 5k or less including the units, materials and labor. Chicago is likely going to cost more.
Hi Ryan,
Hi Ryan,
Thank you for your insightful response! Can you please DM me the name of the HVAC contractor you used to install your MiniSplits in the Lehigh Valley? I'm currently renovating a 1856 row house in Jim Thorpe, PA and I need a good installer. THANK YOU for your help!!!
Todd
@Todd Morris I will respond via PM