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ForumsArrowMulti-Family and Apartment Investing ForumsArrowWhat is stopping you from investing in multifamily?
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What is stopping you from investing in multifamily?

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  • Posts 136
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Joseph Bramante
Multifamily Syndicator / Investor from Houston, TX

posted over 3 years ago

Hello BP members!!
QUESTION: What is stopping you from investing in multifamily properties? What questions and/or concerns do you have about multifamily investing?

I joined BP about 3 weeks ago and have been blown away by the amount of collaboration and support within this community. Hats off to the team at BP for moderating these forums strictly to prevent spamming, a common issue with other RE forums.
I just wish BP was around when I got started in multifamily 7 years ago.

I have personally purchased 4 complexes, 3 through syndications, and done renovations ranging from $$8k/unit to $30m/unit) with returns ranging from 80-207%. My company also manages 6 other properties for other owners. I say this not to impress you but to impress upon you that I have the experience to answer most of your questions. There are also much more experienced guys on here in multifamily who I am hoping will also chime in.

My objective with this post is to change to conversation on BP to include more multifamily and show many of your SF investors how you to can invest in MF.

Let's start by answering the most common question, " I need several hundred thousand dollars to purchase a multifamily?"

Rarely do multifamily properties have a single owner. They are usually a partnership or syndication of several investors. Sometimes up to 35 investors. When I first started, our investors were able to join our syndications with a minimum investment of $10,000! That has since increases to 100k, but you should certainly be able to find newbie syndicators in your market for 10-20k minimums.

Next question?

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William Vanhoorik
Investor from Saint Michael, Minnesota

replied over 3 years ago

how do I find multi-family investment opportunities in the Minneapolis market, I am interested in buying multi family properties all the way from Mpls to St Cloud area.  If anyone has any information on where to look for these I would appreciate it very much.  I welcome any advice from anyone that know who to call or where to look.

Thanks

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David Thompson
Investor from Austin, TX

replied over 3 years ago

Hi Joseph,

Good timing and hope you and your properties (if in Houston) were not impacted.  I posted a blog this morning on 25 FAQs I get when talking MF w/investors.  Also adding one on why I like investing in large apartments.  Welcome to BP and appreciate your topic raiser and sharing of ideas.

https://www.biggerpockets.com/blogs/9145/65780-syn...

https://www.biggerpockets.com/blogs/9145/53820-why...

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Bruce Runn
Investor from Minneapolis, MN

replied over 3 years ago

@William Vanhoorik

Are you looking for syndication deals or straight purchases?

What are you looking for in the Minneapolis market? I buy 2-4 unit Multi Family properties via MLS and off market properties.

Are you new/experienced?  Do you have down payments necessary?  Approved Financing?

These are all the questions anyone will ask you.

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David K.
Investor from Attleboro, Massachusetts

replied over 3 years ago

Biggest problem here is the deals don't cashflow......I have several properties but the numbers work in all of them.  Lack of inventory is my biggest problem!

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Meredith L.
Rental Property Investor from Sacramento, CA

replied over 3 years ago

I'm a new investor and planning to go straight into commercial multifamily in the midwest. I'm determined to get out of the rat race ASAP and with one multifamily I think I can achieve that (much much faster than SFRs at the very least).

My next step is to start building a team on the ground to have access to off market deals (building relationships with property managers, brokers). I'm confident that once I have a great deal, raising $ won't be too tough. Plan is to reach out to my personal network to raise money for the down payment, and aim for a seller carry back on top of a bank loan.

The challenge is finding a great property manager and a great deal especially since I'll be out of state. I'm *considering* targeting 2 different cities at once, given that I think I have enough time and hustle to work on building 2 teams simultaneously. I've done the majority of my research on Kansas City and I'm also looking into Indianapolis.

If anyone has tips or creative strategies to find off market deals I'm all ears ...I've considered direct mail ..for some reason I want to see if chatting with local PMs and brokers gets me anywhere first

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Todd Dexheimer
Rental Property Investor from St. Paul, MN

replied over 3 years ago

@William Vanhoorik that is a hard question to answer without knowing your criteria. If you are looking for apartment buildings then you should be building relationships with real estate brokers that specialize in that. We have a lot of brokers that work exclusively with multi-family. If you're looking for 2-4 unit buildings then MLS realtors and wholesalers are a good resource. Doing mailing and calling owners is also helpful. Our market is very tight, with most buildings going for over $100k/unit.

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Chris Jensen
Rental Property Investor from Bettendorf, IA

replied over 3 years ago

@Joseph Bramante , to answer the title question of your post, for me it's 1) finding enough funds, 2) finding the right deals, and 3) finding time to do everything that's needed while still holding down a full-time job. Any other thoughts on these 3 dilemmas?  And I'd welcome thoughts from other BP members as well.  Thanks, Chris.

@David Thompson , your blog entry on 25 FAQs was awesome, like a mini-textbook on the ins and outs of participating in a syndication. I plan to print this and keep as a ready reference.  Thanks for sharing!

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Meredith L.
Rental Property Investor from Sacramento, CA

replied over 3 years ago

@Chris Jensen , I definitely agree it's hard to do all this with a full time job. I've been waking up earlier to dedicate mornings to REI and I also work from home most days so that helps. Going to local events/meetups and telling other investors about my goals has definitely made me feel more accountable - every time I run into them I want to have made more progress!

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Joseph Bramante
Multifamily Syndicator / Investor from Houston, TX

replied over 3 years ago

@William Vanhoorik , i believe on BP there is a spot to find local real estate meet up in your area. I would recommend you go to those meetups first. Find a few syndicators and take it from there. Actually, i just found it, Download the App, and its the 4th option on the drop down, "Local Forums" . Try that. Otherwise, go to "Meet up.com" and you can find some local real estate meet ups. You have to read the discriptions carefully though since most re meetups are for SF. 

Or just talk with @Bruce Runn . He can probably provide more guidance for your market. 

@David K. Sorry to hear you aren't having much luck over there. Might be time to look into another market. 

@Meredith L. I love the energy. I will caution you though, we have a running joke at our office and when touring properties that are very mismanaged. They tend to be out of state owners we are buying them from. When i got started in the industry, I purchased my first multi while still living in Papua New Guinea and working for Exxon. I had just as much enthusiam as it sound like you do. And of course we applied all of the project management processes and procedures we learned from work, but in the end, i almost lost the property and almost went bankrupt. Luckily, Exxon fired me which forced me to come home and focus on my property and save it. The moral of the story is, i have never seen out of state operations work that well and i would hate for you to lose money that you have worked a long time to earn. 

You have a lot of things working against you, and I'm just going to be frank with you since I think you will appreciate it more. 1) your a newbie which means you don't know what your talking about. This is one of those industries where you just have to put in the time. You can learn the basics via books and blogs, but the brokers and everyone else wont take you seriously for several years. Its a big distraction every time a seller tours a property with a potential buyer. If they back out because of inexperience, it delays the seller a few months and the broker. Brokers and sellers like certainty of execution. Plus its not good for a property to sit in libo.  2) Target 1 city. Lets keep it simple at first. find a city, and go for that one. 3) a Seller carry back is one of things that your read about in books but in practice, rarely ever happens. I think it happens in single family more often. It is something you need to be aware of and try to negotiate if you can, but I wouldn't base my underwriting on it. 

My advice, find you ONE market, find a syndicator there, and maybe offer him a slightly higher fee to open his books more to you and teach you. I hope I did not offend you. 

@Todd Dexheimer , 100k/unit!! Thats crazy. Our brokers are pushing B&C properties north of 75k/dr but our average is around 40-50, if I had to guess. What kind of cap rates are you guys seeing? 

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Joseph Bramante
Multifamily Syndicator / Investor from Houston, TX

replied over 3 years ago

@Chris Jensen I'm just going to jump straight to your last bullet. If you are keeping a full time job, you almost have to use a syndicator. If you don't, and you are successful in buying a property, how long do you think you will keep your job after repeated time off manage your property. The answer is not long, maybe 6 months. And then you have a single property which isn't enough to pay your bills and no job. I have been there, actually worse since my property was negative cash flowing at the time, and i promise you it is not a fun place to be. 

As I mentioned earlier, most newer syndicators will have lower minimums so you can invest with them. And just because they are new, doesn't mean they are inexperienced. When we started, we were new, but two of our partners had 25 years each of property management experience. So look for stuff like that. 

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Amy Kendall
Real Estate Agent from Lehi, UT

replied over 3 years ago

@Joseph Bramante   I found this post very informative.  So far, I have only invested in SF homes because of their affordability and ease of understanding.  Thank you very much @David Thompson for your link, it answered many of my questions regarding syndication deals!  

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Joseph Bramante
Multifamily Syndicator / Investor from Houston, TX

replied over 3 years ago

@David Thompson great article, though i do have a few comments in regards to some of your items:

3) When will I get my original investment back and what is the holding period? We typically return our investors their investment after 2-3 years via a Cash Out Refinance. We try not to sell any of our assets. I know several other syndicators who are this way and think investors should target this approach vs seling to save on taxes. You address it in comment 13, but don't mention that all proceeds from this new supplemental or new debt is tax free. 

7) When will I get paid? We also do monthly direct deposit, though I am finding we are a rarity. Most syndicators I know are on a quarterly distro. It is easier for quarterly so you may see that more often as an investor. 

 8) How will you communicate with me? We also provide a weekly report.  

10) What is the process / timeline? Just a comment on 60 day first distro. We typically see first distro going out at 90-120 days.  We find 60 days is too short of a period to really know whats what. 

17) What happens if we have a hardship and want to get out before we sell the property? Most LP agreements have a process for selling shares. The shares are first presented to the members to buy back and then if nobody wants them, they are offered to individuals outside the llc, but ultimately need to be approved by members. Takes 60-90 days to process but at the end of it, they get there money back plus any appreciation. Since this is a sale, they are responsible for capital gains tax. 

Great article though. I know you were painting with broad strokes for the general audience. I think each of those items you posted has 1 or 2 additional levels of detail we could go into but would be too much info for the casual investor. 

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Account Closed

replied over 3 years ago

@Joseph Bramante Don't you need to be an accredited investor to do this?  I believe that is what is stopping 99.99% of people.

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Mark H.
from Richmond, Virginia

replied over 3 years ago
Originally posted by Account Closed:

@Joseph Bramante Don't you need to be an accredited investor to do this?  I believe that is what is stopping 99.99% of people.

 Well, I know it's what's stopping me.

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Jeff Greenberg
Rental Property Investor from Camarillo, CA

replied over 3 years ago

Account Closed if the sponsor is using The Reg D rule 506 b exemption they can accept Sophisticated investors. They do not need to be accredited. We still use this exemption as many of my friends have not made it to there yet. This rule does prevent us from advertising a deal or using what is called General Solicitation. I have had to stop people at my REI club, from announcing a deal because of this.

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David Thompson
Investor from Austin, TX

replied over 3 years ago

Hi Joseph,

Thanks for your comments and here's my feedback:  

3) When will I get my original investment back and what is the holding period? 

Your Comment:  We typically return our investors their investment after 2-3 years via a Cash Out Refinance. We try not to sell any of our assets. I know several other syndicators who are this way and think investors should target this approach vs seling to save on taxes. You address it in comment 13, but don't mention that all proceeds from this new supplemental or new debt is tax free. 

My Comment: Yes, the plan is to get some of the investor equity back earlier through either a supplemental loan or refinance. If we have a great fixed loan in place, why refi it, we'll go the supplemental loan route and accomplish a similar objective of holding onto the property while getting more equity back to investor earlier. Yes, you are correct, that is a tax free event. That also increases IRR and CoC returns but again, we'd rather be conservative so we don't show the boosted returns in our main marketing deck. Under promising and over delivering we feel is a good philosophy. Most value add syndicators will optimize the property value (complete renovations in 2-3 yrs) then look to sell the asset w/the plan of utilizing a 1031 exchange to go find another value add property. The goal is to create massive value in those early years, after that, you are pretty much subject to the market rent growth of say 3%. We feel as investors too, that we are better served finding another great property and repeat. Of course, if market conditions are soft, we would hold on and wait for a better exit time while continuing to pay our investors the preferred return or better.
 

7) When will I get paid? 

Your comment:  We also do monthly direct deposit, though I am finding we are a rarity. Most syndicators I know are on a quarterly distro. It is easier for quarterly so you may see that more often as an investor.

My comment:  Investors love monthly distributions and in coincides well w/our monthly quick update on the projects progress. It's simple, direct deposit is preferred and highly encouraged.  We find our property mgt company actually prefers monthly.  However, you are correct, most distribute quarterly.

8) How will you communicate with me? 

Your comment.  We also provide a weekly report.

My comment. That seems excessive.  Most syndicators do quarterly.  We like monthly and feedback from our investors is that is about the right cadence.  Not enough happens in one week to clog up folks' emails and with over 10 projects going on and many investors in multiple investments I think that would just be noise they don't need and not an efficient use of our team's time.  

10) What is the process / timeline? 

Your comment.  Just a comment on 60 day first distro. We typically see first distro going out at 90-120 days. We find 60 days is too short of a period to really know whats what.

My comment.  We've bought a proven asset that is well over 90% occupied (typically 95% occupied) and has been making well over $1M - $2M in income on the T-12.  With this strategy and hitting the ground running we want min 30d of operations and we payout the following month.  When we started in this business, yes, we were doing quarterly distributions.  Since we moved to monthly we are in that 30-60 day range of ops before paying out and seems to work fine for us.  Agree, most syndicates will likely be on a quarterly cycle.

17) What happens if we have a hardship and want to get out before we sell the property? 

Your comment:  Most LP agreements have a process for selling shares. The shares are first presented to the members to buy back and then if nobody wants them, they are offered to individuals outside the llc, but ultimately need to be approved by members. Takes 60-90 days to process but at the end of it, they get there money back plus any appreciation. Since this is a sale, they are responsible for capital gains tax. 

My comment:  I can appreciate that.  I will say the spirit is there.  I would say in general that the syndicators I've been exposed to if they are good, have their investors interests at heart and realize we want long term relationships with our investor base.  Life events happen, we get it and I would envision if something isn't spelled out in the PPM exactly how this mechanism works that a "best efforts" approach would be applied for a win/win scenario for the current investors and existing investor.

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Joseph Bramante
Multifamily Syndicator / Investor from Houston, TX

replied over 3 years ago

@Account Closed @Mark H. NO, you do not need to be accredited. Initially, syndicators operate under a 506 (b) offering when they are getting started which means they can accept up to 35 non accredited investors. The catch is they can NOT market or advertise their offering so it is up to the non accredited investor to seek them out and pro actively ask if they have anything. The other type of offering is a 506(c) offering which is what most syndicators transition too as there deals get bigger and they get more established. This offering allows general solicitation but every investor must be accredited.

Once you have identified your market, start searching for syndicators in that market and reach out to them. Ask if they accept non accredited investors. If you see any type of advertisement for them anywhere, then they do not.

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Todd Dexheimer
Rental Property Investor from St. Paul, MN

replied over 3 years ago

@Joseph Bramante I think we are at $125k/unit on average. B area you can expect a 5-6 cap and C area a 6-7 cap. There is some light value add left, but not much. 

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Todd Dexheimer
Rental Property Investor from St. Paul, MN

replied over 3 years ago
Originally posted by Account Closed:

@Joseph Bramante Don't you need to be an accredited investor to do this?  I believe that is what is stopping 99.99% of people.

 Probably the biggest misnomer out there. No you don't need to be accredited to invest in a syndication 

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Meredith L.
Rental Property Investor from Sacramento, CA

replied over 3 years ago

@Joseph Bramante zero offense, I appreciate your insight! It's definitely ironic that I'm a wannabe out of state owner who's targeting absentee owner properties. I completely agree that I'll need to have someone on board to give me credibility, and luckily I've found an awesome mentor in my local area who has a lot of experience acquiring out of state properties. It's going to be critical to have an experienced investor help analyze deals and also allow me to piggyback on their resume. Local networking has been really valuable so far given that in CA there are lots of people who invest out of state.

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Lane Kawaoka
Rental Property Investor from Honolulu, HAWAII (HI)

replied over 3 years ago

@Meredith L. When I got started a couple years ago transitioning from sfh to Mfh it was the partner with the experience to get the Fannie Mae loan. I think it's mostly about adding value to those who have it and most times it's about finding the deal. Let me know if you need any help.

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Account Closed

replied over 3 years ago

Hi all,

Can anyone direct me to where I may find a business plan sample or template for investing in multifamily units?

Best,

Phil

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Todd Dexheimer
Rental Property Investor from St. Paul, MN

replied over 3 years ago
Originally posted by @Joseph Bramante :

@William Vanhoorik , i believe on BP there is a spot to find local real estate meet up in your area. I would recommend you go to those meetups first. Find a few syndicators and take it from there. Actually, i just found it, Download the App, and its the 4th option on the drop down, "Local Forums" . Try that. Otherwise, go to "Meet up.com" and you can find some local real estate meet ups. You have to read the discriptions carefully though since most re meetups are for SF. 

Or just talk with @Bruce Runn . He can probably provide more guidance for your market. 

@David K. Sorry to hear you aren't having much luck over there. Might be time to look into another market. 

@Meredith L. I love the energy. I will caution you though, we have a running joke at our office and when touring properties that are very mismanaged. They tend to be out of state owners we are buying them from. When i got started in the industry, I purchased my first multi while still living in Papua New Guinea and working for Exxon. I had just as much enthusiam as it sound like you do. And of course we applied all of the project management processes and procedures we learned from work, but in the end, i almost lost the property and almost went bankrupt. Luckily, Exxon fired me which forced me to come home and focus on my property and save it. The moral of the story is, i have never seen out of state operations work that well and i would hate for you to lose money that you have worked a long time to earn. 

You have a lot of things working against you, and I'm just going to be frank with you since I think you will appreciate it more. 1) your a newbie which means you don't know what your talking about. This is one of those industries where you just have to put in the time. You can learn the basics via books and blogs, but the brokers and everyone else wont take you seriously for several years. Its a big distraction every time a seller tours a property with a potential buyer. If they back out because of inexperience, it delays the seller a few months and the broker. Brokers and sellers like certainty of execution. Plus its not good for a property to sit in libo.  2) Target 1 city. Lets keep it simple at first. find a city, and go for that one. 3) a Seller carry back is one of things that your read about in books but in practice, rarely ever happens. I think it happens in single family more often. It is something you need to be aware of and try to negotiate if you can, but I wouldn't base my underwriting on it. 

My advice, find you ONE market, find a syndicator there, and maybe offer him a slightly higher fee to open his books more to you and teach you. I hope I did not offend you. 

@Todd Dexheimer, 100k/unit!! Thats crazy. Our brokers are pushing B&C properties north of 75k/dr but our average is around 40-50, if I had to guess. What kind of cap rates are you guys seeing? 

I tend to find my deals from the local mom and pops. In my experience the local small investors are the best ones to target and buy from, not the out of state. Meredith if you want to invest out of state, I firmly believe you can do it. There are thousands of examples out there (look at all the REITs. Read Sam Zells new book and David Lindahls books. There will be plenty of naysayers along the way. Use caution both in state and out of state. 

Also, seller financing and carry back is very common in my experience if you ask. In this market it is more difficult, but I think those that say you can't get seller financing don't ask for it.  

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