HELP!!! Trust agreement is lost and title company will not close

Rental Property Investor · Arlington, TX · Member since 2012 · 788 posts · 640 votes

I purchased 2 properties via Sub2 back in 2010 from another investor. He assigned the Beneficial Interest in a Land Trust (current deed holder) to me as well as a POA and other docs. Mortgage stayed in his name. Well........ I never did ask for the Land Trust Agreement and now in order to refi loan Title company is needing document in order to close. Investor had a flood several years ago and lost several files including this one. Any ideas on how we can close this without producing Land Trust Agreement?

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Aaron Mazzrillo

Investor · Riverside, CA · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes

Fire up good old Word and print new ones. All you need to know is the name of the trust, trustee and date. Trusts are personal property. You can change them at will without notifying anyone and they do not need to be notarized. Swapping out the trustee is the only doc you might consider recording just to protect yourself if you have a falling out with your acting trustee.

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Mike Flora
Investor · Menifee, CA · Member since 2015 · 534 posts · 216 votes
9y
County records should have it if he recorded it and if not then previous owner will probably have to sign something for you. Title should tell you exactly what you will need and from whom though.
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Paul DefnginPro Member
Lender · Rockville, MD · Member since 2008 · 498 posts · 199 votes
9y
@Rocky V. was there any attorney or title company involved with the transaction from when you purchased those 2 properties? If so, maybe check with them and see if they kept copies. Not sure but just a thought. Good luck.
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Rocky V.
OP
Rental Property Investor · Arlington, TX · Member since 2012 · 788 posts · 640 votes
9y
@Mike Flora The beauty of Land Trust is that they are never recorded, thereby, hiding the true owner from public records. The only item recorded is a deed stating 123 Land Trust is owner of said property.
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Mike Flora
Investor · Menifee, CA · Member since 2015 · 534 posts · 216 votes
9y
Rocky V. Oh, didn't know that. What about a bond? If it's a good deal you might be able to pay it. We had an old deed of trust we paid the bond on for one of our properties. It was a few hundred dollars cause it was from 25 years ago and we couldn't find anyone or anything on it that it was paid off. Small amount of money on that deed though.
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Rocky V.
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Rental Property Investor · Arlington, TX · Member since 2012 · 788 posts · 640 votes
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@Paul Defngin Thanks but this was a good ole' hand shake transaction between fellow investors. He is more than willing to work with me but title company isn't giving us any other option but to produce Agreement.
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Rocky V.
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Rental Property Investor · Arlington, TX · Member since 2012 · 788 posts · 640 votes
9y
@John Anderson Absolutely!! I send them a POA and 3rd Party Authorization form stating that I will be new owner of residence and setting payments on auto pay. I've never had a lender decline my payment. You are correct that owner can be found in a land trust but not without a little work. Any input on my dilemma?
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Greg H.Pro Member
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Broker/Flipper · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
9y
Originally posted by @Rocky V.:

I purchased 2 properties via Sub2 back in 2010 from another investor. He assigned the Beneficial Interest in a Land Trust (current deed holder) to me as well as a POA and other docs. Mortgage stayed in his name. Well........ I never did ask for the Land Trust Agreement and now in order to refi loan Title company is needing document in order to close. Investor had a flood several years ago and lost several files including this one. Any ideas on how we can close this without producing Land Trust Agreement?
The Title Company is going to require a copy of the trust to be able to ascertain who is able to sign and/or remove the property from the trust. The previous Title Company should have a copy
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Rocky V.
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Rental Property Investor · Arlington, TX · Member since 2012 · 788 posts · 640 votes
9y
@Greg H. Unfortunately, this was a table top closing and NOW I know better.
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Greg H.Pro Member
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Broker/Flipper · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
9y
Originally posted by @Account Closed:

@Greg H. Who is Joe Gore?
LOLLLLL.......That would be you! The one that was banned from BP a couple of years ago. Least you forget we have had many back and forths over the years. Need I go back to how many Judges you know in Dallas ? How easy it is to pierce the corporate veil ? I may have been the first to figure it out but I am not the only one. I have known for months. Even though we all realize Joe Gore was not your real name either
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Greg H.Pro Member
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Broker/Flipper · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
9y
Originally posted by @Rocky V.:

@Greg H. Unfortunately, this was a table top closing and NOW I know better.
Surely he emailed it to someone at some point. Nobody loses documents to a flood in this day and age
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Greg H.Pro Member
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Broker/Flipper · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
9y
Originally posted by @Rocky V.:

@Greg H. Unfortunately, this was a table top closing and NOW I know better.
Did the guy who sold it to you purchase through a title company?
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Rocky V.
OP
Rental Property Investor · Arlington, TX · Member since 2012 · 788 posts · 640 votes
9y
@Greg H. Yes but he purchased in his name and then transferred deed to Land Trust without the use of an attorney or title company.
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Steve Vaughan
Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
9y
Rocky- if trust docs that were never recorded can disappear, they can certainly be re-created. Bummer if they need to be notarized from 2010 though.
I was thinking of this scenario when the #109 guy was scaring everybody. If the owner is a piece of paper in a drawer, how do you prove who owns it?
Greg- I remember Joe. I don't think John is Joe at all, but thanks for the chuckle down memory lane!
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Aaron Mazzrillo
Investor · Riverside, CA · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
9y
Fire up good old Word and print new ones. All you need to know is the name of the trust, trustee and date. Trusts are personal property. You can change them at will without notifying anyone and they do not need to be notarized. Swapping out the trustee is the only doc you might consider recording just to protect yourself if you have a falling out with your acting trustee.
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Greg H.Pro Member
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Broker/Flipper · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
9y
While I agree that the document could be recreated for the closing of the refi, my concern would be the title company wanting documentation of the original transfer for Mr XXXX to the Trust as from what we understand was a kitchen table transaction
If I were Rocky, I would get the documentation straightened out with a new Trust agreement and start fresh at a new title company. Rocky. I assume the lender is making you remove from the Trust to finance in your name ?
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Rocky V.
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Rental Property Investor · Arlington, TX · Member since 2012 · 788 posts · 640 votes
9y
@Arron Mazzrillo All my Trust Agreements need a notary so not possible to back date a new agreement. I also was under the impression that they must be notarized. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.
@Greg H. I like to remain loyal with my existing title company that I have used for several years. Just need to think outside of the box on this one. Asking them today if I can just recreate Trust Agreement. I am taking out a commercial refi loan against 5 properties and placing these properties into a series LLC.
Appreciate everyone's input.
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Mindy JensenPro Member
BiggerPockets Money Podcast Host · Longmont, CO · Member since 2014 · 7k+ posts · 10k+ votes
9y
@Rocky V. It sounds like the person you bought it from is not disputing your ownership. Surely there is a way to have him swear that you bought it 5 years ago and the docs were destroyed? I would think it would be a huge issue if he were disputing your claim, but he isn't, right?
Since you've used this title company for years, talk to them and ask them for ideas on how to get around this. If it must be notarized, you're right you can't do that from 5 years ago.
But could you get a statement from both of you, attesting to the existence and subsequent destruction of the trust documents, have that statement notarized along with a new trust, and submit to the title company?
@Jay Hinrichs , you know everything. Do you have any suggestions for the OP?
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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
9y
@Mindy Jensen super simple do exactly as @Aaron Mazzrillo stated...
Aaron 6lb rainbow on micro leech yesterday big fish of the year for stoney lake lodge BC LOL OK got to go and get in the water...
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Aaron Mazzrillo
Investor · Riverside, CA · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
9y
Originally posted by @Rocky V.:

@Arron Mazzrillo All my Trust Agreements need a notary so not possible to back date a new agreement. I also was under the impression that they must be notarized. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.
@Greg H. I like to remain loyal with my existing title company that I have used for several years. Just need to think outside of the box on this one. Asking them today if I can just recreate Trust Agreement. I am taking out a commercial refi loan against 5 properties and placing these properties into a series LLC.
Appreciate everyone's input.
So you type up the new one and you delete the notary part out. I've been doing this a long time and most of my properties are in trust. I have swapped millions of dollars worth of real estate just by trading out sheets of paper with other investors. Why would you insist on having a notary gum up your dealings? The notary stamps the grant deed transferring ownership to the trust which gets recorded. If it ain't being recorded, why notarize it?
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Aaron Mazzrillo
Investor · Riverside, CA · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
9y
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

@Mindy Jensen super simple do exactly as @Aaron Mazzrillo stated...
Aaron 6lb rainbow on micro leech yesterday big fish of the year for stoney lake lodge BC LOL OK got to go and get in the water...
Mother-in-law was supposed to come for a month. All I could think about was escaping for a week or more. I've been reading fish reports and checking water flows. Then she called the other day and cancelled. Probably won't be much fishing in my future for at least another 1-2 years.
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Ned CareyPro Member
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Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 13k+ votes
9y
Even if the trust docs needed to be notarized you could create a replacement, stating the facts that this replaces a lost trust document created x date etc. You see things like this with corrective deeds.
A bigger issue, my understanding is that a land trust is a revocable trust. This means the original seller could revoke the trust and take the property back. I have never heard anyone else address this. I would be curious as to the risk and how it is mitigated.
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Mike Flora
Investor · Menifee, CA · Member since 2015 · 534 posts · 216 votes
9y
Jay Hinrichs Aaron Mazzrillo I just posted something else I could use your guys experience on in the forums. Hope you guys can give me some input. Thanks
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Rocky V.
OP
Rental Property Investor · Arlington, TX · Member since 2012 · 788 posts · 640 votes
9y
Good news! I was told that all I need to do is submit a Re-execution of Trust Agreement. Does anyone happen to have one they are willing to share to save me time @Aaron Mazzrillo.
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Aaron Mazzrillo
Investor · Riverside, CA · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
9y
Originally posted by @Mike Flora:

Jay Hinrichs Aaron Mazzrillo
I just posted something else I could use your guys experience on in the forums. Hope you guys can give me some input. Thanks
Post a link. I'm not in the hunting mood.
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Aaron Mazzrillo
Investor · Riverside, CA · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
9y
Originally posted by @Rocky V.:

Good news! I was told that all I need to do is submit a Re-execution of Trust Agreement. Does anyone happen to have one they are willing to share to save me time @Aaron Mazzrillo.
I've not heard of a re-execution of trust agreement, but to me it sounds like they just want you to do as I said earlier, type up a new copy of the trust with the same name and trustee as shown on the grant deed and the beneficiaries.
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