A tenant threatens to sue if I do return her security deposit

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A tenant threatens to sue if I do return her security deposit

Mary Jay
Glendale, AZ · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 236 votes

HI guys,

I have an out of state property that Ive been renting out for one year.

I asked the tenant to move out, when she moved out, there was lots of trash, some weird stuff on the walls, broke cabinets, smell of marijuana (in the state marijuana is not legalized), damaged flooring, etc..

I had to repaint and change the flooring.

Now she says that if I dont return her deposit she will sue me.

I dont think she deserves her security deposit back because she left so much damage.

But, I did not have a property management company, hiring a lawyer is usually more expensive than her security deposit.

I have a full time job and cant take time off to deal with flying to court hearing over 1K of security deposit.

I am trying to persuade myself to just give it back to her, but cant come to peace with that decision.

All these obnoxious tenants, who drain landlords, just really make me sick.

Any word of wisdom guys?

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John Teachout
Rental Property Investor · Concord, GA · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
4y

You can charge for the damages but be sure to clearly describe each item and attach the costs associated with it. If the damages exceed the deposit, those can be charged to the tenant as well. (maybe would have to be through small claims court). It's very important to deal with the deposit per your state/local laws and especially the timelines. You can't just "keep the deposit". You have to utilize it for the damages. In many states, you only have a certain number of days to make a claim against the deposit. Be sure to make notifications according to the law.

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  • John Teachout
    Rental Property Investor · Concord, GA · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    4y

    You can charge for the damages but be sure to clearly describe each item and attach the costs associated with it. If the damages exceed the deposit, those can be charged to the tenant as well. (maybe would have to be through small claims court). It's very important to deal with the deposit per your state/local laws and especially the timelines. You can't just "keep the deposit". You have to utilize it for the damages. In many states, you only have a certain number of days to make a claim against the deposit. Be sure to make notifications according to the law.

    10Reply
  • Theresa HarrisPro Member
    Member since 2019 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    4y

    As long as you documented the damage and sent her the itemized list within the specified time, don't worry about it.  For the flooring, did you charge her the full amount or prorate it based on the age?  Eg if the carpet was 2 years old when she moved out and the lifespan is 5 years, then you can charge her for 60% (because there was 3 years of life left).

    3Reply
  • Mary Jay
    OP
    Glendale, AZ · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 236 votes
    4y
    Quote from @Theresa Harris:

    As long as you documented the damage and sent her the itemized list within the specified time, don't worry about it.  For the flooring, did you charge her the full amount or prorate it based on the age?  Eg if the carpet was 2 years old when she moved out and the lifespan is 5 years, then you can charge her for 60% (because there was 3 years of life left).


     But what if she goes to court? That means I have to take the time from work and fly there or hire an attorney, which is expensive...

    Flying there for a court is probably 1K....

    Its not worth for me fighting...

    0Reply
  • Mary Jay
    OP
    Glendale, AZ · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 236 votes
    4y

    The question is how to find peace with myself if I decide to give her the deposit back?

    I know its not fair and struggle to return it

    But I dont have the time, nor the energy, nor the financial resources to fight her in court...

    0Reply
  • Mary Jay
    OP
    Glendale, AZ · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 236 votes
    4y

    Lets say I return her deposit back, can I take her to court for the damages she caused but can I take her to  court in my state where I live? So she would be flying here, not me flying over there and taking time from work

    0Reply
  • Michael Plante
    Deland, FL · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    4y

    Very doubtful she will go to court 

    don’t won’t about things until it happens

    Keep the deposit document why and send her notice.   Your management company doesn’t handle this?

    2Reply
  • Henry T.
    Member since 2022 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    4y

    I agree with the above post. Michael P.

    How long have you been doing this? You need to educate yourself buddy. Or you're really gonna get it. Especially about lawsuits and the summons process.

    Read AZ law carefully about the requirements for damage deposit and follow them to the letter.

    IF she sues you, so what. That doesn't mean she wins. And she has to serve you first.How is she gonna do that if you live in another state? The basic rule,  You gotta serve them where they sleep. No you can't make her come to your state. I'm no attorney, this is very basic stuff.

    1Reply
  • Bill B.
    Investor · Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    4y

    If a lawyer is going to cost you more than it’s worth won’t a lawyer cost the tenant more than it’s worth?

    You can’t reward bad behavior. Document every deduction, meet all the deadlines, send any remaining security deposit back before any deadlines. Hire a PM and have them fill the space, I think you’re done being the PM.  (You might even have them do the make ready so you have an impartial set of receipts.)

    Ps. This is all assuming you have walkthrough pictures and signed form from tenant at move in. If not, this just another cost of not hiring a PM when you started, refund all the money. 

    3Reply
  • Jonathan R McLaughlin
    Rental Property Investor · Boston, Massachusetts (MA) · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    4y

    @Mary Jay if everyone got sued every time someone said “I’m going to sue you” courts would be busier then they are.

    Itemize and charge fairly within the timelines.

    3Reply
  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Mary Jay:

    Now she says that if I dont return her deposit she will sue me.

    My advice: take a deep breath and be reasonable.

    Tenants threaten to sue all the time, but rarely do. Stop communicating with her at all. Block her phone number. Don't read her texts. Do not respond. Got it?

    If she is serious and decides to sue, you will receive a summons to a court hearing. At that point, you can decide what to do. You could show up in court and defend yourself, and you will win as long as you have documentation. Or you could decide it's not worth the trouble and settle with her out of court. Maybe offer a 50% refund or something and go from there.

    This is a very important lesson. If you are honest, and if you document everything before/after with pictures or video, you have a 99% chance of winning in court. Tenants rarely sue, and it's even more rare that they can show any documentation to prove their claim.

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  • Ariel K.
    TX · Member since 2018 · 154 posts · 92 votes
    4y

    I agree with @Nathan G. I get threatened to get sued all the time. As soon as you show the slightest fight back, tenants usually fold. I gave a tenant a 30-day notice to vacate. She gave me screenshots of google searches she did where I’m not allowed to terminate a lease for no reason. She threatened to get legal aid (she was on section 8), etc. I told her that I encourage it and I hope she is able to get a second opinion.

    Bottom line is that your tenant is going to sue, they have to file the lawsuit, get you served, take a day off of work to even argue her case - seems like a lot of work for a few hundred dollars. Take this for what it probably is - another empty threat.

    0Reply
  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    4y

    If I had a dollar for every time I've been threatened with a lawsuit.........

    Do the right thing and don't let her bully you.

    3Reply
  • Eliott Elias
    Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2021 · 9k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    4y

    Let them do it. If you have enough evidence to justify the damages. You could also reimburse it to them if they want to pay for the repairs themselves 

    0Reply
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Michael Plante:

    Very doubtful she will go to court 

    don’t won’t about things until it happens

    Keep the deposit document why and send her notice.   Your management company doesn’t handle this?

    yup all cattle no hat.. document and keep the deposit.. if she goes to court and you dont want to spend the money just default and pay her then.. chances are like Mike said she is bluffing.

    PS in most states attorneys are not allowed in small claims.. its mano o mano 

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  • Matt Bishop
    Rental Property Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2020 · 161 posts · 88 votes
    4y

    @Mary Jay, almost every post I read on BP is a frustration an owner is experiencing because they don't have a great property manager.

    Wait and see if the tenant really sues you. They probably won't sue over $1000 it's not worth their effort. But if they do sue you, just send them a check and let it go and write down three things you can do better with your next tenant. If you want to get rich, copy what rich people do.

    1Reply
  • Patrick DruryBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · Columbus, OH & Cleveland OH · Member since 2021 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    4y

    @Mary Jay
    This is a great example of why you should have a property manager when investing out of state. I think a property manager would have helped to resolve the issue. 

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  • Gary L Wallman
    Rental Property Investor · Beavercreek OH · Member since 2018 · 422 posts · 970 votes
    4y
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    Quote from @Michael Plante:

    Very doubtful she will go to court 

    don’t won’t about things until it happens

    Keep the deposit document why and send her notice.   Your management company doesn’t handle this?

    yup all cattle no hat.. document and keep the deposit.. if she goes to court and you dont want to spend the money just default and pay her then.. chances are like Mike said she is bluffing.

    PS in most states attorneys are not allowed in small claims.. its mano o mano 


     Jay,

    Pretty sure it's all hat and no cattle. LOL

    Gary

    3Reply
  • Eric James
    Investor · Malakoff, TX · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    4y

    If you're going to cave in just because a tenant threatens to sue you then rental real estate isn't for you.

    4Reply
  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Gary L Wallman:

    Pretty sure it's all hat and no cattle. LOL

    Gary


     Yep :-) Hats are cheap, cattle ain't....

    0Reply
  • Sunny Hon
    Member since 2020 · 44 posts · 16 votes
    4y

    You have to assess the situation, can you afford the loss or flying back to court. Sounds like you need to screen the tenants better in the future. I would just take the loss if you can’t afford to attend small claims court.

    0Reply
  • Sunny Hon
    Member since 2020 · 44 posts · 16 votes
    4y

    I disagree with the statement that if you cave in real estate investing is not for you. Everyone has a learning curve. Making cost effective money decisions is good business sense.

    0Reply
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Gary L Wallman:
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
    Quote from @Michael Plante:

    Very doubtful she will go to court 

    don’t won’t about things until it happens

    Keep the deposit document why and send her notice.   Your management company doesn’t handle this?

    yup all cattle no hat.. document and keep the deposit.. if she goes to court and you dont want to spend the money just default and pay her then.. chances are like Mike said she is bluffing.

    PS in most states attorneys are not allowed in small claims.. its mano o mano 


     Jay,

    Pretty sure it's all hat and no cattle. LOL

    Gary


     my age is creeping up with me.. I knew that  LOL  

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    0Reply
  • Leo R.
    Investor · Member since 2021 · 591 posts · 695 votes
    4y

    @Mary Jay Based on what you've said, it sounds like you are 100% in the right to keep the deposit, and you have little to worry about.

    Do the following: follow the local/state law on the process, document all the damages with photos, send tenant a professionally-worded and formatted itemized list of damages with photos of the damages, and with an itemized list of the associated costs, deduct those items from the deposit and--if they exceed deposit amount--keep the full deposit, and lastly--don't engage with the tenant any more after you've done that and anything else your local laws require you to do). 

    When you send the tenant the itemized list of damages & costs, you may also include an item in your list that says something like: "After the tenant vacated the premises, there was a strong odor of marijuana in Rooms X, Y, Z. Possession / use of marijuana is a (misdemeanor? felony?) in the State of X, as described in (list the relevant law/laws).  Use of illegal substances at the premises is also a violation of the lease (list the relevant sections of your lease...if you don't have this in your lease, add it for future tenants)."  ...when the tenant realizes that if they do take you to court, they'll have to explain to a judge why they were smoking marijuana in your property, they'll probably realize it's a bad idea to take you to court.

    Hopefully this helps ease your mind: what you're experiencing is very common--bad tenants who lose their deposit constantly threaten to sue landlords (and believe me: after about the 5th time it happens, you'll begin to ignore these types of empty threats). Assuming the landlord is competent, is acting within the bounds of the law, and has done nothing wrong, it's very uncommon for the tenant to actually sue the landlord in these situations. Even if the tenant has the motivation to begin the lawsuit process, they quickly realize that the court fees / attorney fees would cost much more than their deposit, and even then, they'd likely lose their case.

    Also, think about the type of person this tenant is--do you really think that they have the intelligence, motivation, and perseverance to navigate the court system? Based on how you've described them, probably not. 

    Assuming that you are a competent landlord operating within the bounds of the law, and doing the deposit retention process correctly, you probably have little to worry about.

    Good luck out there!

    1Reply
  • Mary Jay
    OP
    Glendale, AZ · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 236 votes
    4y
    Quote from @Sunny Hon:

    You have to assess the situation, can you afford the loss or flying back to court. Sounds like you need to screen the tenants better in the future. I would just take the loss if you can’t afford to attend small claims court.

    I am leaning towards this..
    it is not always a good business decision to take the time off of work and fly somewhere and deal with the stress of going to court, printing evidence, asking witnesses to come to court, and it’s all for a lousy 1k, just to prove that I am right.

    i would rather get  her off of my back and focus on something that will make me money.
    my time is precious.
    don’t want to waste it fighting over 1k

    thank u guys all for helping me out!
    i really appreciate it!!!


    0Reply
  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Mary Jay:
    it is not always a good business decision to take the time off of work and fly somewhere and deal with the stress of going to court, printing evidence, asking witnesses to come to court, and it’s all for a lousy 1k, just to prove that I am right.

    i would rather get  her off of my back and focus on something that will make me money.
    my time is precious.
    don’t want to waste it fighting over 1k

    thank u guys all for helping me out!
    i really appreciate it!!!


    Do what you need to....but it is doubtful she will sue anyway so don't back down until she does.
    And then there is the concept of allowing a scammer and cheater to win.....you are teaching her that she can do wrong and make money. No big deal for you, but there are other landlords that she will do the same thing to if she is not put down. IMO, you do have at least a small amount of responsibility to your fellow landlords......
    4Reply
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