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Thank you sir!
So you feel like you get plenty of money from your not paid off rentals that allow you to quit your full time job?
BIG DIFFERENCE between a a few cash flowing rentals vs retiring off of rental income. For example - I have a duplex that rents for $1350 - the mortgage when I started was $636. So roughly 700/month cashflow. Say 50% of that goes towards repairs/maintenance/vacancy etc. That leaves me with $350/mo.
$350/mo. Going to need about 30 of those to live how I want to.
So I would say the cash flow is little - more leverage generally means less cashflow as well. But then you put more money down (for less leverage) and there goes the opportunity cost of a lot of over investments as well as your liquidity.
I use real estate to diversify my investments more than anything now. A little cashflow, some tax deductions to kick down the road, long term appreciation and loan paydown. It's slow money. I think long term it can make sense especially if you can 1031 exchange into something down the road.
I claim if you properly allocate for sustained expenses this is negative cash flow. I also claim that the price and rent indicate it will not appreciate or have rent growth significantly better than inflation.
I could not live on 100 of these (I admit to spending a lot of money). This is not worth the effort and risk of owning a duplex. In my market every PM would charge more than your projected $350/month (which I already indicated is not reality) to manage two average size units in a duplex.
This does not mean cash flow does not exist. It means you may need to be a better hunter or understand ways to add value.
Good luck
I claim you eat crayons. Doesn't mean that markers don't exist. You may need to look under the couch for those.
It's a good deal that works bud. Bought for 104k cash, rehabbed and did a cash-out refi. Left almost nothing in the deal and got a great equity capture at the buy. On top of that (even with the insurance rate increases here) it STILL almost hits the 1% rule in terms of cashflow. While the absolute value may not be high - I have a rehabbed duplex (can you say practically $0 repairs/maintenance/CapEx for the next 10-15 years since I rehabbed when I bought it?) that sits right on the parade routes, a block from the college campus, and block from a bunch of restaurants and bars. Maybe a month of vacancy total in the past 3 years.
I'll take that deal all day. Maybe slow down on the crayons bud, you're looking a little green.
Good luck.
Your definition of a good deal is very different than mine. How long have you had rentals? Have you ever filled out an maintenance/cap ex spreadsheet with expected lifespan and expected replacement costs to try to accurately estimate sustained maintenance/cap ex.
I already know you did not accurately project increased insurance costs. We owned a property once that had crazy insurance increase (it got hit by hurricanes in 2 consecutive years). Fortunately it had a rent point in a different stratosphere than your depicted rent income and could absorb crazy high insurance increases.
@James Hamling is correct about those cap expenses coming. He is not correct about the need to sell before they come IF you have accurately allocated for the expenses and the underwriting depicts a profit worth the effort and risk.
If you purchased or refinanced at near rates near current rate, at that rent point, 1% is negative cash flow when properly allocating for the sustained expenses. Or you can try James' approach to sell before the significant cap ex items but I suspect you will be selling at a price that reflects the impending coming costs.
It is my belief that you have never calculated out your sustained maintenance/cap ex costs and truly believe this has positive cash flow.
I am trying to provide some insight as to your view and to your situation. You seem to not want to take it as intended (to educate) and I am not sure it that is name calling or whatever it is.
I do wish you would take the time this week to do the effort to properly estimate your maintenance/cap ex for a sustained hold. I believe it will be enlightening and will provide some clarity to my post.
By the way I am retired on RE investing (actually i have made enough money in 3 different sources for most people to retire on any one of them). Cash flow is possible, but it also is not necessary to retire off of RE.
Good luck and I wish you the best
I fill out a spreadsheet w/ the bigger ticket items - roof, siding, AC (this one has a mini split), hot water heater, flooring. Smaller items like fixtures, countertops, cabinets I don't worry about as much. This is a small property so the smaller items don't amount to too much.
For this particular duplex - upstairs flooring will come up - looking around $1500 for LVP installed. Roof would be around $5000. Brand new mini split AC installed around $1000. Siding is the big ticket item here. Hot water heaters are tankless and new. Fixtures are new. Countertops are ok - would do a butcher block here - looking around $500 installed (can be sanded, refinished, sealed, epoxied over etc). Plumbing is all brand new. In $2024 I spent $56 on repairs/maintenance between both units. I have this in a spreadsheet and generally divide by how long I think that particular item will last to come up with a monthly cost.
Insurance costs I think were predicted reasonably. No one (ask the people who had to move out of their home due to insurance costs) is predicting insurance costs doubling, tripling in 2-3 years. This duplex is still cashflowing after absorbing the increased insurance costs. In fact it still almost hits the 1% rule. Do you typically take your insurance estimate, then multiply it by 3, and use that as an expense? I doubt anyone does because that wouldn't make sense.
I don't see how rent point has to do with absorbing high insurance costs. If your rent is $3000 and your expenses are $2900, you still can't absorb a high insurance increase. It really has to do with the spread between rent (income) and expenses. Insurance on a 1mm property will also go up a lot more than a 100k property.
I'd actually like to hear your methodology on buying. I understand you have a lot more experience than me (and experience is often the best teacher) but I still think I have done some things right with this property and I think it works out long term. This was my first property, I've owned it for about 3.5 years, and "started" in RE about 4 years ago (all stock market investing prior). I can take a step back for a minute though. A lot of the social media "guru" stuff has gotten me to be an extremely quick skeptic here lately. So I can admit that and that I am very far from being an expert.
How do you manage to get a roof done for 5k on a duplex? Do u do it yourself?
Here in MN the "average" cost for doing an 'average" asphalt pitched roof is about $22k.
If I go to the supply house, where I am allowed to purchase given my GC license, and I order all the materials. And if I call up the BIG roofing subcontractor that 9/10 in the market use and I schedule them out to do the install.
Now like magic that $22k roofing job turned into $12k-$14k.
Real #'s.
So the answer is by doing some work in being your own GC & Project Manager.
It's not for everyone because you gotta be capable of correctly ordering materials and running a jobsite, but it's far from rocket science.
And note in this I do NOT skimp on material quality. It's not only the exact same materials BUT I do some upgraded things vs what the standard GC does.
I believe that if you only build to code, congratulations you just got a D-, because that's what code is, the bare minimum acceptable.
I build to do what BEST and smartest. So I do better improved synthetic felt. I go double in ice & water, run all valleys with I&W, check my attic ventilation and add to assure correct airflow and most often shift to ridge vent.
I am cutting out 2or3 middle-men; a sales rep, a GC, maybe a sub-GC because yes there can be layers of GC's depending on who your hiring. I have seen "roofing contractors" who sub work to a guy who subs work to a guy who subs work to the actual install crew. That's a lot of layers of markup on labor.
I rather just go straight to the main labor sub who has dedicated installers.