No heat/hot water, tenant wants a hotel
56 Replies
Lyndal McMurphy
Rental Property Investor from Tulsa, OK
posted 12 months ago
My tenant in a SFH (single mother with toddler) was contacted by the gas company saying she was using excessive gas. They sent a technician out who did a pressure test on the gas line and said there is a leak on the house side, and turned off her gas. They told her to contact her landlord and have them get the leak fixed, inspected by the City, and then they can turn gas back on. That was yesterday and I called 5 different plumbers referred to me and the first reputable one I could get onsite was today. They are looking for the leak now. I'm not optimistic her gas is back on before early next week. I took 5 radiator and space heaters by her house yesterday. She is saying she has no where else to stay if they get too cold, or to shower/cook. I'm doing all I can do.
My question is... at what point am I obligated (morally or legally) to get them a temporary place to stay. Daytime temps right now are mid 30s. Will be in 60s this weekend. So hopefully the space heaters can at least keep them warm. But they have no hot water.
Also, because I know this conversation is coming soon, am I obligated (again morally or legally) to pay any excessive gas charge, if they charge her for her full "usage"?
Thanks!
Marc Winter
Real Estate Broker from Scranton, PA
replied 12 months ago
@Lyndal McMurphy , moral obligation? That's a question for you and your own conscience.
Legally, in my non-attorney opinion, depending on your lease you are probably not obligated to set them up at the Hilton with room service. Or even Motel 6. Most leases have an uninhabitable type clause--if a part of the house is not useable, a proportion of rent is to be forgiven.
If they cannot use the entire house (which doesn't sound like it in this case) they will be forgiven the rent for those days. You gave them an alternate source of heat--you did the right thing. On the no hot water, they might have to shower with a friend, but that's life. Stuff happens. Give a rent discount if you feel so inclined.
It is for these reasons ALL tenants should be required to carry renter's insurance. They can file a claim with their insurer to be reimbursed.
The overage on gas due to a leak, you may be on the hook for the extra gas over/above the average usage--assuming the tenant did not cause the leak. Either way, you dodged a bullet!
Bob B.
Investor from Roswell, GA
replied 12 months ago
I'd bet you could put her in an extended stay for a week for a couple of hundred bucks. Some here will not agree, but I think it's just a cost of business and not much money. Expecting a family with kids to live without cooking or hot water in the winter isn't reasonable. The gas bill probably won't be much and it's not her fault. You're lucky someone didn't die. Do you have CO2 detectors? If not, now will be a good time to install a couple.
Jaysen Medhurst
Rental Property Investor from Greenwich, CT
replied 12 months ago
This is really a conversation for your attorney, @Lyndal McMurphy . The laws differ by state and even municipality. You're certainly required to provide heat, which you're doing. Morally, you acted immediately and are working to fix the problem ASAP. If this is truly going to be fixed by early next week, I'd say ride it out and sleep well. Maybe pro-rate her rent (with your attorney's counsel), but only tell her that after all is sorted. If it's going to be longer than that, look at a local AirBnB. I can't imagine there's a ton of demand in Tulsa this time of year (but what do I know?). Perhaps even reach out to other local investors to see if they have an un-rented STR or furnished unit that they would cut you a "professional discount" on.
Justin Abdilla
Attorney from Chicagoland
replied 12 months ago
Originally posted by @Lyndal McMurphy :My tenant in a SFH (single mother with toddler) was contacted by the gas company saying she was using excessive gas. They sent a technician out who did a pressure test on the gas line and said there is a leak on the house side, and turned off her gas. They told her to contact her landlord and have them get the leak fixed, inspected by the City, and then they can turn gas back on. That was yesterday and I called 5 different plumbers referred to me and the first reputable one I could get onsite was today. They are looking for the leak now. I'm not optimistic her gas is back on before early next week. I took 5 radiator and space heaters by her house yesterday. She is saying she has no where else to stay if they get too cold, or to shower/cook. I'm doing all I can do.
My question is... at what point am I obligated (morally or legally) to get them a temporary place to stay. Daytime temps right now are mid 30s. Will be in 60s this weekend. So hopefully the space heaters can at least keep them warm. But they have no hot water.
Also, because I know this conversation is coming soon, am I obligated (again morally or legally) to pay any excessive gas charge, if they charge her for her full "usage"?
Thanks!
You're at the "hire a lawyer" stage of this controversy. You need appropriate counsel so that your tenant and you reach a protected and enforceable agreement when you do end up providing her alternate living conditions. Laws for landlord/tenant are very state specific, however typically the tenant doesn't pay when the property isn't habitable (this situation) and can either breach the lease or sue for damages when the property cannot be inhabited for more than a few days (I think it's 5 in my state). You'll have to offer them some alternate living conditions (hotel room, airbnb, cash stipend for an extended stay) while you get this rehabbed, but go through a lawyer in Oklahoma to figure out the right way to do this.
Stop posting about it online, as well. This stuff might come back to get you as an exhibit in a trial if your tenant wants to sue you for renting an unliveable unit.
Lyndal McMurphy
Rental Property Investor from Tulsa, OK
replied 12 months ago
Thanks for the info everyone! They found the leak today so I'm hoping it will be fixed soon and gas back soon thereafter. I do agree this is a legal question but when the cost of consulting a lawyer would cost more than the cost of a STR for a few days, it's obviously not worth it for just this one instance. But it does make sense to seek counsel on how to handle future situations, edit my standard lease, etc. I've had situations where water, sewage, or heat/air was not working for a few days, so I'll consult my lawyer on how to handle future situations. Thanks again!
Rhett Tullis
Property Manager from Oklahoma City, OK
replied 12 months ago
start reading this. I read it twice a month.
https://www.ok.gov/ohfa/documents/landlord-tenant-act.pdf
118 - 3 covers what you need to provide in this case
section 121 covers your situation. i generally tell a tenant if we can fix in 48 hours no hotel or rebate on rent.
if the repair takes over 48 hours then i will waive or refund each days rent that the house is not livable.
check out 121 c 1-4 that kinda outlines that.
if the tenant does threaten to sue or makes a big fuss then i generally offer them the option listed in 121 d and let them move on. Ill then refund their deposit after they move out and the house is inspected.
This is not legal advise just how I handle it. But as I said review the link above and come to your own conclusion.
Sue K.
from San Jose, CA
replied 12 months ago
You only legally have to reimburse her prorated rent, not the cost of a hotel room. I got this from Rhetts link above:
4. Upon written notice, procure reasonable substitute housing during the period of the landlord’s
noncompliance, in which case the tenant is excused from paying rent for the period of the landlord’s
noncompliance.
What I used to do is put them in another vacant unit if I had one, but if not, if it was just a day or two, I'd research a safe but affordable motel price and offer the tenant to either credit that amount of money towards their next month's rent, or I'd book the room for them. They always took the rent credit instead. One had to move out because the unit flooded from a pipe problem, and she took the rent credit and just stayed with a friend instead of the motel I offered.
If it was for more than a few days, (which I never dealt with), I would show them what the law says, offer them a little bit more and the option to terminate their agreement if they want. It's best to try and keep them happy, unless they get ridiculously demanding. It's emotional and extremely disruptive for them, so I found it best to show them they're getting a good deal in a bad situation, and they always calmed down and it was over with soon.
I'd also require renter's insurance. Even when contracts explain they should get it, blah blah, they rarely do and if you try explaining that to them when they're in the middle of these situations, they kind of go ballistic in my experience. If I was to require it, I could then remind them to call their insurance agent.
This just gave me a new idea on this. I think I'd also keep a copy of their insurance agent contact info in their file, so when they were freaking out, I could hand them their agent's number and tell them to call it. Sometimes they just don't function well in a crisis and telling them to call their agent when they don't remember where they put that info, just makes them hard to deal with. If I could just hand them a copy of their agent's info, things would go more smoothly.
Nathan G.
(Moderator) -
Real Estate Broker from Cody, WY
replied 12 months ago
There is absolutely no reason to contact an attorney. This has nothing to do with you, neglect of the home, etc. If it happened at your house, what would happen? Would the mortgage company put you up in a hotel or prorate your mortgage? Of course not! There's no reason to act like you're somehow responsible.
When something like this happens, my first question is, "How would this be handled at my own home?" My second question is, "How can I provide better service to my tenant without babying them?"
Your tenant lost heat, but you replaced it. I assume they have an electric stove and possibly a microwave so nobody's going to starve to death in 48 hours. The only thing they're really missing is hot water for a shower. This is a minor inconvenience in today's world, particularly in the winter when kids aren't playing outside all day. She could easily skip 1-2 days or, if necessary, take a sponge bath with water heated on the stove. Believe it or not, people used to maintain pretty good hygiene for thousands of years before the invention of electric and gas furnaces.
On a $2,000 rental, prorated rent is $66 a day. If you really feel generous, you could drop her rent for two days and she could spend that on access to a local fitness center to take showers, laundromat to do laundry, eat out, or shack up in a cheap hotel.
Personally, I wouldn't go beyond what you did. Bring her some heaters, make sure she can stay warm and prep food, and fix the problem as quickly as possible. If she's understanding and cooperative, I may follow up with a coffee card or pizza coupon as a nice gesture, but that's far more than anyone would do for me if I lost gas in my house.
Anna Sagatelova
Property Manager from Cleveland, OH
replied 12 months ago
Respectfully disagree with @Nathan G.
The standard of care a landlord owes a tenant is not to be conflated with the standard of care a mortgage company owes a borrower. There are clear landlord-tenant laws that control the situation at hand.
The fact that people lived for thousands of years without modern amenities is irrelevant and also not in line with modern landlord-tenant laws.
Also Nathan makes big assumptions about the rental value at $2000/month and that the stove is electric rather than gas.
With all that said: I don't think you need to rush to calling attorneys, I do think that if the situation is resolved in a day or two from when she lost gas, it's ok to just prorate her rent. However, going 3+ days without gas or hot water with a toddler is not ok, and if she has the mind to take you to the city or court about this, anyone will side with her.
Yes, it's unfortunate that these things happen but that's the cost of business when your business is providing people and their children a roof over their head.
Not legal advice, but advice based on my own property management experience.
Nathan G.
(Moderator) -
Real Estate Broker from Cody, WY
replied 12 months ago
Originally posted by @Anna Sagatelova :Respectfully disagree with @Nathan G.
The standard of care a landlord owes a tenant is not to be conflated with the standard of care a mortgage company owes a borrower. There are clear landlord-tenant laws that control the situation at hand.
The fact that people lived for thousands of years without modern amenities is irrelevant and also not in line with modern landlord-tenant laws.
Also Nathan makes big assumptions about the rental value at $2000/month and that the stove is electric rather than gas.
With all that said: I don't think you need to rush to calling attorneys, I do think that if the situation is resolved in a day or two from when she lost gas, it's ok to just prorate her rent. However, going 3+ days without gas or hot water with a toddler is not ok, and if she has the mind to take you to the city or court about this, anyone will side with her.
Yes, it's unfortunate that these things happen but that's the cost of business when your business is providing people and their children a roof over their head.
Not legal advice, but advice based on my own property management experience.
The Landlord is required to maintain the heat, which he is doing. The law does not require him to get the heat back on 15 minutes, 24 hours, or even a week. It simply requires he make a good-faith effort to maintain the heat. He presented her with space heaters, so every other argument is completely pointless. He is also working (on the weekend, I might add) to get gas service restored as quickly as possible.
If the Tenant wanted to complain, she is regulated by law and required to follow a process. The first step is to give the Landlord written notice of his failure to meet his obligation (which he has not failed to do) and then provide him a reasonable amount of time to respond. He will have the heat back on before she can even serve the letter, so what's the point?
If she took her complaint to the City or an attorney right now, they would ignore her because she hasn't even given him the chance to meet his obligation.
If her inability to cook were an issue, I suspect he would have mentioned that. She probably has an electric stove and maybe even a microwave.
I used a rent rate of $2,000 to show that prorated rent won't equate to the cost of a hotel in most towns. She's probably paying less than $2,000 which means the prorated rent is even lower and even less likely to cover the cost of a hotel.
I mention people have survived without hot water for thousands of years to show the ridiculous idea that this tenant is somehow suffering. She's going to be without a hot shower for two days! She can still heat water on a stove and take a bath or bathe her child. She can take a sponge bath. She can go to the house of a friend, family, or neighbor. She has access to fitness facilities or maybe even something at work. I bet dollars to donuts she could find a public restroom with running hot water and a changing table sufficient for cleaning the baby if she needed. This idea that people should never be inconvenienced in life is ridiculous. I served in the military for 21 years and took more baths in a 5-inch basin of cold water than I care to remember. She'll survive.
The tenant is suffering an extremely minor inconvenience for a very short period of time through no fault of the Landlord. He's doing the right thing, morally and legally.
There's nothing to see here.
Kevin Sobilo
Rental Property Investor from Olyphant, PA
replied 12 months ago
The issue many responders here are ignoring is code enforcement. Code enforcement would not consider space heaters an acceptable way to heat an occupied home. So, if the tenant makes a complaint, code enforcement could bar habitation until central heating is repaired.
I went through this sort of scenario where a gas combo-boiler that provided heat and hot water was down ~10 days in late November.
My tenant is a single mother with 3 kids and no support network. So, I did pay for them to stay in a hotel after this issue lingered beyond the first few days.
Keep in mind legal obligation is the "minimum standard", and not always what you will want to personally choose to do.
Rhett Tullis
Property Manager from Oklahoma City, OK
replied 12 months ago
i have picked 48 hours for my time frame as there are several cases in Oklahoma where the judges felt that was reasonable. I agree this is not like when you own the home you need to do your best to remedy the issue asap but some issues do take a week or more and are not due to the negligence of the property owner or manager.
be aware that in oklahoma county there are lawyers that will help the tenant for free and will be more than happy to handle a case like this. also be aware that a space heater would not be considered comparable to central heat based on the multitude of cases i have seen similar to this in the courts here but just my two cents.
Anna Sagatelova
Property Manager from Cleveland, OH
replied 12 months ago
@Nathan G. I guess we will agree to disagree. Being a landlord is not the time or place to enforce your personal worldview that tenants/people are too soft in our modern society. Laws take care of the standards a landlord has to provide a tenant, and those laws vary by state and municipality, but nowhere in the United States is that standard "she will survive." Your personal choice to enlist and serve in the military and the personal sacrifices you made for our country, while noble, are not relevant to the landlord-tenant relationship.
Sure, the laws also prescribe a process for tenants to resolve grievances against their landlord, but in my experience (in Northeast Ohio) it is point-blank untrue that a city would ignore a single mother with a toddler who came to them saying she hasn't had proper working heat, gas is shut off to the property, there are gas leaks and no hot water, she can't bathe or cook for her child, etc.
I certainly would not tell a judge that the tenant could have cleaned her toddler in a public restroom while there was no gas or hot water in the property I'm leasing her for 3+ days. Sure, it could be reasonably expected that if this issue lasted a day or two, she could hopefully rely on friends/family, but if she can't, she can't, and that's not the landlord's business. Maybe the landlord could suggest some ideas, but certainly can't force them on the tenant.
Whether the prorated rent would equal the cost of alternative accommodations is not the issue or the test anywhere as far as I am concerned.
Like I said, my response is based on my own property management experience, in my market.
What I would do is communicate with my tenant, see what her asks are, and negotiate from there. We have had to put up tenants in hotels when there was no gas/no hot water. We have also been able to negotiate other terms.
Jill F.
Investor from Akron, Ohio
replied 12 months ago
For less than 72 hours, I'd consider that an inconvenience. She can nuke some hot water in the microwave and bathe the toddler in the kitchen sink. If it drags on any longer I'd credit her the daily rent and she could use that towards a hotel (or the deductible on her renter's insurance which should pay for a hotel). I'd take her over an infrared cooktop and crock pot along with the space heaters and she can cook. I don't consider it my job to protect tenants from 'acts of god', accidents, or bad luck; but I will do my best to help them deal with the situation in place.
Devin Fakner
Investor from Plano, TX
replied 12 months ago
A great way to avoid potential conflict when this arises would be to set expectations upfront.
Include this in a discussion: "in the situation where the heat goes out, hot water heater busts, etc, we will be given 48 hours to rectify said issue; you will be refunded rent for any time past 48 hours that the issue persists"
Or something like that...
Nathan G.
(Moderator) -
Real Estate Broker from Cody, WY
replied 12 months ago
Originally posted by @Kevin Sobilo :The issue many responders here are ignoring is code enforcement. Code enforcement would not consider space heaters an acceptable way to heat an occupied home. So, if the tenant makes a complaint, code enforcement could bar habitation until central heating is repaired.
Just like others, you're exaggerating the situation. He's not in violation of code. He's provided her with a suitable, short-term solution to the loss of heat and is working quickly to have it resolved. The issue will be resolved before Code Enforcement could get involved.
Michael Noto
Real Estate Agent from Southington, CT
replied 12 months ago
You are handling everything the exact way you should and have provided them with heat in a very timely manner. I would not pay for a hotel for them because of the hot water issue. Is it an inconvenience for them? Yes but things happen and you are doing all you can to rectify the situation ASAP.
John Collins
Investor from Tx, Ga
replied 12 months ago
Do the human thing here - something an economics textbook might not teach you - but something your parents or life should have. This is part of being a landlord, and in a place like Oklahoma you can get them into an extended stay with a kitchenette for $400 / week during the offseason. It's a no brainer since it gets below freezing at night (weather.com says 18 degrees tmrw night).
Wesley W.
Rental Property Investor from Capital Region, NY
replied 12 months ago
If, in the middle of the coldest part of a NY winter, an ice storm hits and disrupts power to utility customers, disabling their heating sources. Does the utility provider owe the entire town a stay at the Holiday Inn? How about the municipality? At whom should you direct the blame? Should we demand a discount on our mortgages since the lender is the one holding the note on "their" property? Tenants should not expect the same level of service as if they were staying in a hotel.
This falls under the "life happens" category. The OP is being responsive and is addressing the problem with tradesmen as quick as their schedule allows, and has attempted to mitigate the issue in the meantime. Not every inconvenience in life is due reparations from another party.
The most I would offer is a pro-rated rent credit for the days they were without heat, but like some people said - they still have use of their home with an alternate heat source.
Kevin Sobilo
Rental Property Investor from Olyphant, PA
replied 12 months ago
@Nathan G. , you are once again incorrect. I am speaking based on a specific personal experience that was similar in nature.
In my case my tenant did contact code enforcement and code enforcement did call me and tell me that they had to tell her that technically the place was not inhabitable with only plug in heaters as heat.
Code enforcement in this town is reasonable and did try to talk to the tenant about staying with relatives for a day or two, but a day or so later I found out it would be several more days waiting for a part to arrive. At that point I had to pony up. If I didn't code enforcement could and would shut down the unit if the tenant called them again.
The poster said in the original post that they expected heat to be out until the following week. So, the circumstances were fairly similar.
Kevin Sobilo
Rental Property Investor from Olyphant, PA
replied 12 months ago
@Wesley W. , when a similar situation happened to me my tenant did not have the means to stay somewhere else. The tenant is a single mother with little/no support system and who had a couple personal tragedies strike in the preceding months including the death of an immediate family member.
As I said before, your legal obligation is the bare minimum, but not always the best course of action when considering every aspect of a situation.
Ryan Proffit
from Saint Joseph, MO
replied 12 months ago
@Bob B. I don’t believe Co2 detectors will detect natural gas. I don’t know how they didn’t smell a gas leak.
Lyndal McMurphy
Rental Property Investor from Tulsa, OK
replied 12 months ago
Interesting dialog. Even if we're not all on the same page, it's good to see the range of responses and interpretations of not just what my legal obligation is, but also moral obligation, which is why I included "morally and legally" in my original post.
FYI, the gas is still out and I expect it will be back on Thur or so. It is going to get interesting tomorrow night when it gets down in the 20s and snow on Wednesday. However, I found a decent STR in a safe area for about $55/night after fees and offered her that or I could not charge her rent for the days she is without gas (@ $27/day). She elected to stay at home and take the discounted rent. She is microwaving water to wash her child and do some light cooking.
Next thing I need to address is her latest gas bill which was over $400. And I even think the billing period for that bill ended well before we discovered the leak, so there could be another large bill incoming. Hopefully the gas company will provide some relief on the bill.
Lyndal McMurphy
Rental Property Investor from Tulsa, OK
replied 12 months ago
Originally posted by @Ryan Proffit :@Bob B. I don’t believe Co2 detectors will detect natural gas. I don’t know how they didn’t smell a gas leak.
There were 3 leaks... 2 small ones in the crawl space and then the much larger leak is in the back yard (underground). I'm not sure if she just didn't spend much time in the backyard during these last couple winter months or if being an underground leak, it's not as easy to smell.