Avoiding city (building) inspectors and code enforcement

[Alexander Parunin]

We just recently started house renovation and got red tagged by the city inspector. I guess he saw dumpster while driving around or maybe neighbors complained. So we learned never leave dumpster in city limits.

• Could you share your strategies on how to avoid city inspections/code enforcement on extensive renovations?

Much appreciated

[Cody L.]

Quote from @Dan Heuschele:

My complaint about permits in my market are:

1) permits required for things that the need for permits has never been enforced.  I have had a lot of water heaters replaced.  Water heater replacement is supposed to have a permit.  No one, even all the licensed plumbers I have used, ask if you desire a permit.  No one wants the cost associated with the permit.  It the lack of permit is never going to be enforced, why require the permit?  Replacing toilets is another great example of this.

2) Absurd upgrades associated with some permits.  I will cover 2 that are pet peeves: a) replace AC condenser of HVAC system.  Due to HERS, virtually every time you will need to replace all ducting. This significantly raises the cost of the project and is reason to consider not getting a permit b) There is newish (actually been around many years, but not as old as many of my units) that require BR windows to be lower than used to be required.  It is for easier ingress/egress which is a good thing.  Replace the window requires lowering the bottom of the window.  Note the existing window does not meet the newish ingress/egress requirement but replace it requires reframing, siding, stucco repair, drywall repair.  IMO the current ingress/egress requirement should apply for any new window opening, but to replace a window that currently does not meet the ingress/egress requirement and requiring the new window to meet the ingress/egress requirement adds significantly to the cost and timeline.  No licensed window contractor that I know of will replace a BR window without making it meet current ingress/egress requirements.  If you want to simply replace the window without expanding the opening you will either need to do it yourself or use a handyman and not have a permit.  I have never seen windows without permit get redflagged, but there is a first time for everything.

3) The bureaucracy of getting permits.  I have various permits being worked currently and many in the past.  I initially submitted the plans on one permit in 3 sets of plan documents.  I was told that they had to be one plan document.  they used an example someone who would submit 100 plan documents.  I could see than being an issue, but 3 is no where near 100.  I a different site plan on a duplex where both units have their own lot separated by a fence.  The site plan I submitted only included the unit that the work was being performed on.  I was told to resubmit the site plan depicting both units.  I asked why and they did not provide an answer.  I suspect it is solely because that is what they are used to.  I submitted a plan for a patio cover that has all details including post and beam sizes, hardware, footing description, etc.  The permit office requested I take their patio document and high light the aspects that applied to my patio.  There was not a single thing in the patio document that was not already in my plan.  This is just some of the crazy bureaucracy that I have encountered when getting permits.

The bureaucracy alone is a reason to consider not obtaining permits.

I have been tagged by code enforcement for unpermitted work.  If the work is done correctly, it often is no more work to get the permit post work than prior to the work.  Same crazy rules and same crazy bureaucracy.  

Carful admitting to doing that stuff without a permit. Bruce is going to get his buddy rick to come after you!

[Mike Hern]

Quote from @Cody L.:

Quote from @Dan Heuschele:

My complaint about permits in my market are:

1) permits required for things that the need for permits has never been enforced.  I have had a lot of water heaters replaced.  Water heater replacement is supposed to have a permit.  No one, even all the licensed plumbers I have used, ask if you desire a permit.  No one wants the cost associated with the permit.  It the lack of permit is never going to be enforced, why require the permit?  Replacing toilets is another great example of this.

2) Absurd upgrades associated with some permits.  I will cover 2 that are pet peeves: a) replace AC condenser of HVAC system.  Due to HERS, virtually every time you will need to replace all ducting. This significantly raises the cost of the project and is reason to consider not getting a permit b) There is newish (actually been around many years, but not as old as many of my units) that require BR windows to be lower than used to be required.  It is for easier ingress/egress which is a good thing.  Replace the window requires lowering the bottom of the window.  Note the existing window does not meet the newish ingress/egress requirement but replace it requires reframing, siding, stucco repair, drywall repair.  IMO the current ingress/egress requirement should apply for any new window opening, but to replace a window that currently does not meet the ingress/egress requirement and requiring the new window to meet the ingress/egress requirement adds significantly to the cost and timeline.  No licensed window contractor that I know of will replace a BR window without making it meet current ingress/egress requirements.  If you want to simply replace the window without expanding the opening you will either need to do it yourself or use a handyman and not have a permit.  I have never seen windows without permit get redflagged, but there is a first time for everything.

3) The bureaucracy of getting permits.  I have various permits being worked currently and many in the past.  I initially submitted the plans on one permit in 3 sets of plan documents.  I was told that they had to be one plan document.  they used an example someone who would submit 100 plan documents.  I could see than being an issue, but 3 is no where near 100.  I a different site plan on a duplex where both units have their own lot separated by a fence.  The site plan I submitted only included the unit that the work was being performed on.  I was told to resubmit the site plan depicting both units.  I asked why and they did not provide an answer.  I suspect it is solely because that is what they are used to.  I submitted a plan for a patio cover that has all details including post and beam sizes, hardware, footing description, etc.  The permit office requested I take their patio document and high light the aspects that applied to my patio.  There was not a single thing in the patio document that was not already in my plan.  This is just some of the crazy bureaucracy that I have encountered when getting permits.

The bureaucracy alone is a reason to consider not obtaining permits.

I have been tagged by code enforcement for unpermitted work.  If the work is done correctly, it often is no more work to get the permit post work than prior to the work.  Same crazy rules and same crazy bureaucracy.  

Carful admitting to doing that stuff without a permit. Bruce is going to get his buddy rick to come after you!

 @Cody L  I agree with your perspective but here are some other things to consider; 

In the future, when things go wrong and a permit wasn't pulled, you are on the hook. And your insurance company won't pay out. And as they say in the very profitable legal business, "the process is the punishment" and if someone gets hurt or dies, God fobid, you have even more serious problems. Yes, they have you by the  ***** hairs, but as is said "it's the golden rule, he who has the gold, makes the rules". Don't let the buggers win. Cover your arse, do the permits and move on to making more money.

[Cody L.]

Quote from @Mike Hern:

Quote from @Cody L.:

Quote from @Dan Heuschele:

My complaint about permits in my market are:

1) permits required for things that the need for permits has never been enforced.  I have had a lot of water heaters replaced.  Water heater replacement is supposed to have a permit.  No one, even all the licensed plumbers I have used, ask if you desire a permit.  No one wants the cost associated with the permit.  It the lack of permit is never going to be enforced, why require the permit?  Replacing toilets is another great example of this.

2) Absurd upgrades associated with some permits.  I will cover 2 that are pet peeves: a) replace AC condenser of HVAC system.  Due to HERS, virtually every time you will need to replace all ducting. This significantly raises the cost of the project and is reason to consider not getting a permit b) There is newish (actually been around many years, but not as old as many of my units) that require BR windows to be lower than used to be required.  It is for easier ingress/egress which is a good thing.  Replace the window requires lowering the bottom of the window.  Note the existing window does not meet the newish ingress/egress requirement but replace it requires reframing, siding, stucco repair, drywall repair.  IMO the current ingress/egress requirement should apply for any new window opening, but to replace a window that currently does not meet the ingress/egress requirement and requiring the new window to meet the ingress/egress requirement adds significantly to the cost and timeline.  No licensed window contractor that I know of will replace a BR window without making it meet current ingress/egress requirements.  If you want to simply replace the window without expanding the opening you will either need to do it yourself or use a handyman and not have a permit.  I have never seen windows without permit get redflagged, but there is a first time for everything.

3) The bureaucracy of getting permits.  I have various permits being worked currently and many in the past.  I initially submitted the plans on one permit in 3 sets of plan documents.  I was told that they had to be one plan document.  they used an example someone who would submit 100 plan documents.  I could see than being an issue, but 3 is no where near 100.  I a different site plan on a duplex where both units have their own lot separated by a fence.  The site plan I submitted only included the unit that the work was being performed on.  I was told to resubmit the site plan depicting both units.  I asked why and they did not provide an answer.  I suspect it is solely because that is what they are used to.  I submitted a plan for a patio cover that has all details including post and beam sizes, hardware, footing description, etc.  The permit office requested I take their patio document and high light the aspects that applied to my patio.  There was not a single thing in the patio document that was not already in my plan.  This is just some of the crazy bureaucracy that I have encountered when getting permits.

The bureaucracy alone is a reason to consider not obtaining permits.

I have been tagged by code enforcement for unpermitted work.  If the work is done correctly, it often is no more work to get the permit post work than prior to the work.  Same crazy rules and same crazy bureaucracy.  

Carful admitting to doing that stuff without a permit. Bruce is going to get his buddy rick to come after you!

 @Cody L  I agree with your perspective but here are some other things to consider; 

In the future, when things go wrong and a permit wasn't pulled, you are on the hook. And your insurance company won't pay out. And as they say in the very profitable legal business, "the process is the punishment" and if someone gets hurt or dies, God fobid, you have even more serious problems. Yes, they have you by the  ***** hairs, but as is said "it's the golden rule, he who has the gold, makes the rules". Don't let the buggers win. Cover your arse, do the permits and move on to making more money.

I quite literally have saved over $1m (if I had to guess) on not pulling permits for the small things that quite frankly no one pulls permits for if you asked them one on one.

I'm not talking about building a room addition without a permit.  I'm talking about a kitchen remodel, replacing common fixtures, light electric/plumbing work (very common is adding a dishwasher where there wasn't one).  Replacing window units with ductless mini splits.

I can't even imagine the extra full time staff I'd have to hire (I'd add about $200k/year to payroll) just to deal with the city for all the little things that technically require a permit.

[James Hamling]

Quote from @Cody L.:

@Bruce Woodruff

1) I don't invest in San Diego (because I'm not a crazy person).  I have a home here though (born and raised).  A nice fat $5m home in Mission Hills I'm happy to say. 

2) I'm not 30 but aww sucks that was a nice complement.  And yes, I bought my first 8 unit in 2007 using savings from my 9-5 as a down payment.  I now have almost 2,000 units and about $1.8m in monthly rent roll without taking on any outside investors.   So yeah, you should 'listen to this guy' (insert emoji here).

3) Correct, I don't pull a permit for anything "unless I have to".   Meaning if I'm adding a ceiling fan to a unit that has no ceiling lights (so we have to add a switch, run some cable), or swapping out a sink/vanity, or putting in new double pane windows to replace old crappy ones --- all of which need a permit -- No, I don't pull a permit.

But hey, congrats and good on you for being so obedient to the state.  We need people like you.

Sadly though, your government buddy Rick won't to crap to me as I don't do any work in San Diego.  So you and Rick can go threaten someone else.

So since we want to measure wang's here and get all aggressive on this topic, I will simply layout how this works, from someone who has been a part of doing thousands of flips across a multitude of states, countless municipalities, and operated fund level portfolios. 

The Building Code is written as a portion of law under Public Health and Safety. 

That means, when a person for the operation of real estate business knowingly, willingly and wantingly directs or operates modifications to a residential structure via VIOLATION of that building code, AND SOMETHING HAPPENS, be it 2 weeks, 2 years or 2 decades later, you my friend have now made yourself liable, not only civilly but also criminally if such applies. 

For example, say you ignore electrical code because you simply don't want to follow it. And sell that property, with your handyman wired ceiling fan. And that Handyman is "ok", so he almost does things correctly. So it's 5yrs later, and that "almost correct" wiring comes loose at the ceiling can due to vibration and now has an arch. That given how he wired to breaker, does not trip. And as he is "almost right" the can is in a manner that it starts an attic fire. At night.     Next morning as fire dept has put out the flames there pulling the 2 bodies from the rubble who sucumbed to smoke inhalation.    The fire investigators rapidly locate source of fire, and also the causality. Doing there investigation find it's thanks to NON permitted NON inspected items. Come to find current home owner did NOT do that, but they trace it right back to YOU. 

Next thing they find your with a whole bunch of $ and assets. Family of course get's attorneys, there devastated, people died. Those attorneys work with officials and next thing your getting notice of surprise inspections at a few sites, than a few more, and more and more because as they pull this thread they find more and more of the same. This accelerates, but you hear nothing so you blow em off as "what ever". 

And then.... It's a year or two later and out of the blue a knock on the door, but a half dozen officers with shinny new bracelets for you. You find yourself sitting on a few hundred charges of public endangerment. And the suites start hitting, wrongful death, etc etc.. Insurance carriers start canceling policy after policy, lenders start calling notes due. 

THAT'S REALITY. 

Your bragging how your playing Russian Roulette, and have not as of yet found a bullet in the chamber. YET.... When a person does such foolish things they forget, your gambling EVERYTHING, that NOTHING will EVER happen to blow open the door of accountability. 

Jordan Belfort used to brag of the same once upon a time just as you are here. There is a long list of those who got away with it for a long time, made ton's of money, until they didn't get away with it, and the whole house of cards came tumbling down. 

It's insanity to risk everything, on perpetual state of never getting caught. It's simple facts, un-licensed persons doing un-licensed work will NOT do things to code, it's exactly why they are (a) unlicensed or (b) doing unlicensed work.    Permits PROTECT those doing the work, it transfers liability unto those who inspected and passed said work. That's why no legitimate licensed person will do un-licensed work, there not dumb enough to eat that liability. 

And if you think your installers are "oh so dedicated" to you that they won't talk, lol, yeah just have 1 bad event happen that pulls that thread and find out just how fast they flip on you, throw ya under the bus, and clap along singing a song as they drive over you with it. Nobody is going to go to jail for you. 

Every year as a Building Contractor we would have various meet's where they would detail the persons they nailed in such cases. I remember at start of lead safe certification how many got arrogant and said how dumb it all was and there not doing that stupidity, and authorities warned there would be examples made. Next year, it was a list of those nailed and sued/fined into oblivion. 

It's the downfall of hubris. Every time your doing this your only increasing your odd's of a calamity, and the eventual downfall. proving a pattern of intent and habitual actions. 

Again, Building Code is under Public health and Safety, that means violation of such is legally a violation of Public Safety. Go ahead, be that guy, enjoy it while you can, don't say you weren't warned.    

[Alexander Parunin]

Quote from @James Hamling:

Quote from @Cody L.:

@Bruce Woodruff

1) I don't invest in San Diego (because I'm not a crazy person).  I have a home here though (born and raised).  A nice fat $5m home in Mission Hills I'm happy to say. 

2) I'm not 30 but aww sucks that was a nice complement.  And yes, I bought my first 8 unit in 2007 using savings from my 9-5 as a down payment.  I now have almost 2,000 units and about $1.8m in monthly rent roll without taking on any outside investors.   So yeah, you should 'listen to this guy' (insert emoji here).

3) Correct, I don't pull a permit for anything "unless I have to".   Meaning if I'm adding a ceiling fan to a unit that has no ceiling lights (so we have to add a switch, run some cable), or swapping out a sink/vanity, or putting in new double pane windows to replace old crappy ones --- all of which need a permit -- No, I don't pull a permit.

But hey, congrats and good on you for being so obedient to the state.  We need people like you.

Sadly though, your government buddy Rick won't to crap to me as I don't do any work in San Diego.  So you and Rick can go threaten someone else.

So since we want to measure wang's here and get all aggressive on this topic, I will simply layout how this works, from someone who has been a part of doing thousands of flips across a multitude of states, countless municipalities, and operated fund level portfolios. 

The Building Code is written as a portion of law under Public Health and Safety. 

That means, when a person for the operation of real estate business knowingly, willingly and wantingly directs or operates modifications to a residential structure via VIOLATION of that building code, AND SOMETHING HAPPENS, be it 2 weeks, 2 years or 2 decades later, you my friend have now made yourself liable, not only civilly but also criminally if such applies. 

For example, say you ignore electrical code because you simply don't want to follow it. And sell that property, with your handyman wired ceiling fan. And that Handyman is "ok", so he almost does things correctly. So it's 5yrs later, and that "almost correct" wiring comes loose at the ceiling can due to vibration and now has an arch. That given how he wired to breaker, does not trip. And as he is "almost right" the can is in a manner that it starts an attic fire. At night.     Next morning as fire dept has put out the flames there pulling the 2 bodies from the rubble who sucumbed to smoke inhalation.    The fire investigators rapidly locate source of fire, and also the causality. Doing there investigation find it's thanks to NON permitted NON inspected items. Come to find current home owner did NOT do that, but they trace it right back to YOU. 

Next thing they find your with a whole bunch of $ and assets. Family of course get's attorneys, there devastated, people died. Those attorneys work with officials and next thing your getting notice of surprise inspections at a few sites, than a few more, and more and more because as they pull this thread they find more and more of the same. This accelerates, but you hear nothing so you blow em off as "what ever". 

And then.... It's a year or two later and out of the blue a knock on the door, but a half dozen officers with shinny new bracelets for you. You find yourself sitting on a few hundred charges of public endangerment. And the suites start hitting, wrongful death, etc etc.. Insurance carriers start canceling policy after policy, lenders start calling notes due. 

THAT'S REALITY. 

Your bragging how your playing Russian Roulette, and have not as of yet found a bullet in the chamber. YET.... When a person does such foolish things they forget, your gambling EVERYTHING, that NOTHING will EVER happen to blow open the door of accountability. 

Jordan Belfort used to brag of the same once upon a time just as you are here. There is a long list of those who got away with it for a long time, made ton's of money, until they didn't get away with it, and the whole house of cards came tumbling down. 

It's insanity to risk everything, on perpetual state of never getting caught. It's simple facts, un-licensed persons doing un-licensed work will NOT do things to code, it's exactly why they are (a) unlicensed or (b) doing unlicensed work.    Permits PROTECT those doing the work, it transfers liability unto those who inspected and passed said work. That's why no legitimate licensed person will do un-licensed work, there not dumb enough to eat that liability. 

And if you think your installers are "oh so dedicated" to you that they won't talk, lol, yeah just have 1 bad event happen that pulls that thread and find out just how fast they flip on you, throw ya under the bus, and clap along singing a song as they drive over you with it. Nobody is going to go to jail for you. 

Every year as a Building Contractor we would have various meet's where they would detail the persons they nailed in such cases. I remember at start of lead safe certification how many got arrogant and said how dumb it all was and there not doing that stupidity, and authorities warned there would be examples made. Next year, it was a list of those nailed and sued/fined into oblivion. 

It's the downfall of hubris. Every time your doing this your only increasing your odd's of a calamity, and the eventual downfall. proving a pattern of intent and habitual actions. 

Again, Building Code is under Public health and Safety, that means violation of such is legally a violation of Public Safety. Go ahead, be that guy, enjoy it while you can, don't say you weren't warned.    

 5-7 million secondary market homes being sold every year in US. Around 8% on average are flips which make it on average 500k home sales.

Can you bring example of such case(s) anywhere in US that received public attention (was on news)?

[Cody L.]

Quote from @James Hamling:

Quote from @Cody L.:

@Bruce Woodruff

I stopped reading at this line:  "say you ignore electrical code because you simply don't want to follow it."

That's a strawman.  I never said that.  I make sure our guys are not taking shortcuts and are doing things to code (in fact, I even made sure to stress that point).  Just because I don't involve the government when I add a dishwasher doesn't mean I'm not doing things to code.

You assume that if I only involve some government inspector, then everything will be safe.  If not, calamity.  Sorry, but I'll take the skills of the team of guys I hire over some of the government bureaucrats in the building department any day.   And like you said, if there is some injury to how I had things done, that would be bad.  That's why I make sure things are done right.  I have built in motivation to not take shortcuts.

And I normally don't get aggressive on here or do a wang contest, but I do admit I get a bit triggered by government boot licking replies.   It's something I need to work on...

[James Hamling]

Quote from @Cody L.:

Quote from @James Hamling:

Quote from @Cody L.:

@Bruce Woodruff

I stopped reading at this line:  "say you ignore electrical code because you simply don't want to follow it."

That's a strawman.  I never said that.  I make sure our guys are not taking shortcuts and are doing things to code (in fact, I even made sure to stress that point).  Just because I don't involve the government when I add a dishwasher doesn't mean I'm not doing things to code.

You assume that if I only involve some government inspector, then everything will be safe.  If not, calamity.  Sorry, but I'll take the skills of the team of guys I hire over some of the government bureaucrats in the building department any day.   And like you said, if there is some injury to how I had things done, that would be bad.  That's why I make sure things are done right.  I have built in motivation to not take shortcuts.

And I normally don't get aggressive on here or do a wang contest, but I do admit I get a bit triggered by government boot licking replies.   It's something I need to work on...

Your entire argument/statements are contradictory. 

You argue that you - adhere to code, - via violating code. 

When/where building code includes permit and inspection, if your not adhering to permit and inspection, your operating in violation of building code. It's just that simple. 

What your inferring is that you have full commanding capacity to build "to code" via persons happy to work in violation of building code. The whole thing is an oxymoron. 

If you have such commanding capacity of building practices in acting as own GC, why don't you simply have a GC license? 

I get it, your opinionated that you know everything and licensed pro's are just some form of scam, clueless persons just charging more for a paper. We find this flawed mindset in every trade involving licensed professionals. I was sitting in court one day and found a Judge say it perfectly to a preceding person who decided to represent themself int he matter. The judge confirmed it's what the guy wanted to do and then said to him if he had heard what the saying is to such, that self representing in such without a legal professional that he had a fool as a client. 

Facts are facts, your arguing to operate illegal actions, in a repetitive manner. Taking on liability, enduring liability. 

Compliance with the law as "boot licking" huh.... So, someone steals your car, your a "boot licker" if call the police? If a restaurant complies with health code, I suppose there "boot lickers"? How dare people comply with speed limits? is it ok to do 70mph out front your kids school? 

This is nothing more than a rant of ENTITLEMENT, that you are twisting and distorting, or attempting to such, to say the laws you don't want to follow, it's not you, it's the laws fault.... 

[James Hamling]

Quote from @Alexander Parunin:

Quote from @James Hamling:

Quote from @Cody L.:

@Bruce Woodruff

1) I don't invest in San Diego (because I'm not a crazy person).  I have a home here though (born and raised).  A nice fat $5m home in Mission Hills I'm happy to say. 

2) I'm not 30 but aww sucks that was a nice complement.  And yes, I bought my first 8 unit in 2007 using savings from my 9-5 as a down payment.  I now have almost 2,000 units and about $1.8m in monthly rent roll without taking on any outside investors.   So yeah, you should 'listen to this guy' (insert emoji here).

3) Correct, I don't pull a permit for anything "unless I have to".   Meaning if I'm adding a ceiling fan to a unit that has no ceiling lights (so we have to add a switch, run some cable), or swapping out a sink/vanity, or putting in new double pane windows to replace old crappy ones --- all of which need a permit -- No, I don't pull a permit.

But hey, congrats and good on you for being so obedient to the state.  We need people like you.

Sadly though, your government buddy Rick won't to crap to me as I don't do any work in San Diego.  So you and Rick can go threaten someone else.

So since we want to measure wang's here and get all aggressive on this topic, I will simply layout how this works, from someone who has been a part of doing thousands of flips across a multitude of states, countless municipalities, and operated fund level portfolios. 

The Building Code is written as a portion of law under Public Health and Safety. 

That means, when a person for the operation of real estate business knowingly, willingly and wantingly directs or operates modifications to a residential structure via VIOLATION of that building code, AND SOMETHING HAPPENS, be it 2 weeks, 2 years or 2 decades later, you my friend have now made yourself liable, not only civilly but also criminally if such applies. 

For example, say you ignore electrical code because you simply don't want to follow it. And sell that property, with your handyman wired ceiling fan. And that Handyman is "ok", so he almost does things correctly. So it's 5yrs later, and that "almost correct" wiring comes loose at the ceiling can due to vibration and now has an arch. That given how he wired to breaker, does not trip. And as he is "almost right" the can is in a manner that it starts an attic fire. At night.     Next morning as fire dept has put out the flames there pulling the 2 bodies from the rubble who sucumbed to smoke inhalation.    The fire investigators rapidly locate source of fire, and also the causality. Doing there investigation find it's thanks to NON permitted NON inspected items. Come to find current home owner did NOT do that, but they trace it right back to YOU. 

Next thing they find your with a whole bunch of $ and assets. Family of course get's attorneys, there devastated, people died. Those attorneys work with officials and next thing your getting notice of surprise inspections at a few sites, than a few more, and more and more because as they pull this thread they find more and more of the same. This accelerates, but you hear nothing so you blow em off as "what ever". 

And then.... It's a year or two later and out of the blue a knock on the door, but a half dozen officers with shinny new bracelets for you. You find yourself sitting on a few hundred charges of public endangerment. And the suites start hitting, wrongful death, etc etc.. Insurance carriers start canceling policy after policy, lenders start calling notes due. 

THAT'S REALITY. 

Your bragging how your playing Russian Roulette, and have not as of yet found a bullet in the chamber. YET.... When a person does such foolish things they forget, your gambling EVERYTHING, that NOTHING will EVER happen to blow open the door of accountability. 

Jordan Belfort used to brag of the same once upon a time just as you are here. There is a long list of those who got away with it for a long time, made ton's of money, until they didn't get away with it, and the whole house of cards came tumbling down. 

It's insanity to risk everything, on perpetual state of never getting caught. It's simple facts, un-licensed persons doing un-licensed work will NOT do things to code, it's exactly why they are (a) unlicensed or (b) doing unlicensed work.    Permits PROTECT those doing the work, it transfers liability unto those who inspected and passed said work. That's why no legitimate licensed person will do un-licensed work, there not dumb enough to eat that liability. 

And if you think your installers are "oh so dedicated" to you that they won't talk, lol, yeah just have 1 bad event happen that pulls that thread and find out just how fast they flip on you, throw ya under the bus, and clap along singing a song as they drive over you with it. Nobody is going to go to jail for you. 

Every year as a Building Contractor we would have various meet's where they would detail the persons they nailed in such cases. I remember at start of lead safe certification how many got arrogant and said how dumb it all was and there not doing that stupidity, and authorities warned there would be examples made. Next year, it was a list of those nailed and sued/fined into oblivion. 

It's the downfall of hubris. Every time your doing this your only increasing your odd's of a calamity, and the eventual downfall. proving a pattern of intent and habitual actions. 

Again, Building Code is under Public health and Safety, that means violation of such is legally a violation of Public Safety. Go ahead, be that guy, enjoy it while you can, don't say you weren't warned.    

 5-7 million secondary market homes being sold every year in US. Around 8% on average are flips which make it on average 500k home sales.

Can you bring example of such case(s) anywhere in US that received public attention (was on news)?

So let me get this right, in your mind no criminal action happens or is sentenced unless it's on the news.....? 

Here is a suggestion, go down to your local court house, sit-in, let us know how many sentences are being passed and convictions made by the hour that apparently "don't exist" because there not on the news.... 

Or, do your own leg work, call your Building Code division of enforcement and ask them how many cases they've handed out. 

Your inferment that unless you personally see something it than does not exist.... Have you ever been to Egypt? No? So than Egypt does not exist, right? Your using "flat-Earther" logic, which is narcissistic to the N'th degree that unless you personally have seen, touch, experienced such it must therefore not exist, lol. 

If not on news with public attention, does not exist, lol, that's a good one. 

[Bruce Woodruff]

@James Hamling We're wasting our time here my friend.....

First the OP comes here asking about permits for a full house renovation. Doesn't like the answers, so argues with the people giving him advice.

Next we get the rich guy with (alleged) thousands of units and the fancy house in ....wait....Mission Hills. He doesn't believe in permits either. Well not for 'little things' anyway. And not in 'that county'. And every guy he hires are - of course - all properly licensed and in full code compliance at all times.....

Anyone daring to offer a logical and law abiding opinion, based on decades of experience and tens of millions of dollars of completed projects, is of course a 'boot-licker' and a big Govt loving idiot.

Ah, well then...

[James Hamling]

Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:

@James Hamling We're wasting our time here my friend.....

First the OP comes here asking about permits for a full house renovation. Doesn't like the answers, so argues with the people giving him advice.

Next we get the rich guy with (alleged) thousands of units and the fancy house in ....wait....Mission Hills. He doesn't believe in permits either. Well not for 'little things' anyway. And not in 'that county'. And every guy he hires are - of course - all properly licensed and in full code compliance at all times.....

Anyone daring to offer a logical and law abiding opinion, based on decades of experience and tens of millions of dollars of completed projects, is of course a 'boot-licker' and a big Govt loving idiot.

Ah, well then...

Can lead a horse to water, right.... 

I foolishly concern myself with the novice reading such who thinks "huh, yeah, that seems a good idea"..... 

Yeah, what do we know, just lifetimes in the biz, lol. I actually get a bit excited at seeing something new nowadays, because so much now I'm that "ole-timer" saying "yup, shoulda ____, this one time....". People say "your a genius" I say that's code for old, lol. Doing anything 20,30+ years, ya better be damn good at it. This would be my 32nd season, I believe. Where have the years gone....

We did what we could, it's up to people to use there heads for more than a neck weight from here. 

[Bruce Woodruff]

Quote from @James Hamling:

Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:

Can lead a horse to water, right.... 

I foolishly concern myself with the novice reading such who thinks "huh, yeah, that seems a good idea"..... 

Yeah, what do we know, just lifetimes in the biz, lol. I actually get a bit excited at seeing something new nowadays, because so much now I'm that "ole-timer" saying "yup, shoulda ____, this one time....". People say "your a genius" I say that's code for old, lol. Doing anything 20,30+ years, ya better be damn good at it. This would be my 32nd season, I believe. Where have the years gone....

We did what we could, it's up to people to use there heads for more than a neck weight from here. 

I had an old mentor when I was young and dumb that used to tell me to "use your head for something besides a hat-rack, Woody" :-)

[Cody L.]

ya'll are comedy...

[Todd Jones]

Quote from @Alexander Parunin:

 5-7 million secondary market homes being sold every year in US. Around 8% on average are flips which make it on average 500k home sales.

Can you bring example of such case(s) anywhere in US that received public attention (was on news)?

Being on the news is not a good measurement if something is happening. News companies only report events that may have interest to a niche or mass market. A general “Substantial number of homes have no permits pulled”, probably but I would challenge how they got the statistics. But individual or a group of homes? No. It’s not interesting.

Regardless if it’s in the news or not, fines are fines if discovered. 

[Todd Jones]

Quote from @Cody L.:

I quite literally have saved over $1m (if I had to guess) on not pulling permits for the small things that quite frankly no one pulls permits for if you asked them one on one.

 The OP (@Alexander Parunin) is referring to major things like the entire plumbing and an electrical box. 
I won’t disagree too much regarding very small items like a light fixture but it’s subjective. A “light item” not done to code like a adding a dishwasher can become serious if the details aren’t addressed or if it looks “good enough” hence the reason for codes. You’re responsible for it. The unlicensed contractors could care less and implement stuff lying around you’ll never see (thinner pipe, wiring, loose connections that move from vibrations such as walking, etc). 

Feel that you’re smarter than the others? What’s the big deal?

In all, you can get away with something a thousand times…but it only takes one time. Then it’s over. 

[Mike Hern]

Quote from @James Hamling:

Quote from @Cody L.:

@Bruce Woodruff

Again, Building Code is under Public health and Safety, that means violation of such is legally a violation of Public Safety. Go ahead, be that guy, enjoy it while you can, don't say you weren't warned.    

@James Hamling: Simple question:

I pulled an electrical permit on a rehab in Phoenix. I decided to rewire the entire 4 bedroom 2 bath house because it had aluminum wiring.

My helper and I tore out the entire aluminum wiring and installed copper wire (to code) Outlets, stoves, heaters, AC Units, washer, dryer, lights and so on. Took pictures along the way. Neither of us is licensed.

There were two inspections a. after we ran the wire, before we put in insulation and wallboard, nothing connected (inspection took ten minutes)

b. The second inspection, I had the wiring diagram, marked with the amperage wire to each run for each outlet, receptacle, and so on back to the breakers. Color coded. Photos included.

During that inspection, the inspector looked at two different outlets to see if they were grounded, didn't want to see my wiring diagram or photos, didn't look in the attic, didn't test any outlets, stove, or anything else.

smiled at me, signed off and left.

As @Cody L.: said "You assume that if I only involve some government inspector, then everything will be safe."

Clearly that is a misguided belief. The inspector was nice, fast (late for lunch I suppose), but hardly cared. And the property is only safe because I made sure, not because the inspector walked in, said hello, signed a piece of paper and walked out. Ludicrous.

You trust the government far too much my friend.

Should I have called him back in and do a complete inspection or should I have asked for my permit fee back?

[Cody L.]

Quote from @Todd Jones:

Quote from @Cody L.:

I quite literally have saved over $1m (if I had to guess) on not pulling permits for the small things that quite frankly no one pulls permits for if you asked them one on one.

 The OP (@Alexander Parunin) is referring to major things like the entire plumbing and an electrical box. 
I won’t disagree too much regarding very small items like a light fixture but it’s subjective. A “light item” not done to code like a adding a dishwasher can become serious if the details aren’t addressed or if it looks “good enough” hence the reason for codes. You’re responsible for it. The unlicensed contractors could care less and implement stuff lying around you’ll never see (thinner pipe, wiring, loose connections that move from vibrations such as walking, etc). 

Feel that you’re smarter than the others? What’s the big deal?

In all, you can get away with something a thousand times…but it only takes one time. Then it’s over. 

You are making the mistake of not getting a permit with not doing to code or to a high quality level.  As if people who don't want to get a permit are only doing so to get away from needing to do things the right way.

That's not the case -- not with me anyway.

[Cody L.]

Quote from @Mike Hern:

Quote from @James Hamling:

Quote from @Cody L.:

@Bruce Woodruff

Again, Building Code is under Public health and Safety, that means violation of such is legally a violation of Public Safety. Go ahead, be that guy, enjoy it while you can, don't say you weren't warned.    

@James Hamling: Simple question:

I pulled an electrical permit on a rehab in Phoenix. I decided to rewire the entire 4 bedroom 2 bath house because it had aluminum wiring.

My helper and I tore out the entire aluminum wiring and installed copper wire (to code) Outlets, stoves, heaters, AC Units, washer, dryer, lights and so on. Took pictures along the way. Neither of us is licensed.

There were two inspections a. after we ran the wire, before we put in insulation and wallboard, nothing connected (inspection took ten minutes)

b. The second inspection, I had the wiring diagram, marked with the amperage wire to each run for each outlet, receptacle, and so on back to the breakers. Color coded. Photos included.

During that inspection, the inspector looked at two different outlets to see if they were grounded, didn't want to see my wiring diagram or photos, didn't look in the attic, didn't test any outlets, stove, or anything else.

smiled at me, signed off and left.

As @Cody L.: said "You assume that if I only involve some government inspector, then everything will be safe."

Clearly that is a misguided belief. The inspector was nice, fast (late for lunch I suppose), but hardly cared. And the property is only safe because I made sure, not because the inspector walked in, said hello, signed a piece of paper and walked out. Ludicrous.

You trust the government far too much my friend.

Should I have called him back in and do a complete inspection or should I have asked for my permit fee back?

Thank you for this comment.  The people that put this faith in the people who work for the government must have had much better results in dealing with those same people than I've had. 

[Todd Jones]

Quote from @Mike Hern:

Quote from @James Hamling:

Quote from @Cody L.:

@Bruce Woodruff

Again, Building Code is under Public health and Safety, that means violation of such is legally a violation of Public Safety. Go ahead, be that guy, enjoy it while you can, don't say you weren't warned.    

@James Hamling: Simple question:

I pulled an electrical permit on a rehab in Phoenix. I decided to rewire the entire 4 bedroom 2 bath house because it had aluminum wiring.

My helper and I tore out the entire aluminum wiring and installed copper wire (to code) Outlets, stoves, heaters, AC Units, washer, dryer, lights and so on. Took pictures along the way. Neither of us is licensed.

There were two inspections a. after we ran the wire, before we put in insulation and wallboard, nothing connected (inspection took ten minutes)

b. The second inspection, I had the wiring diagram, marked with the amperage wire to each run for each outlet, receptacle, and so on back to the breakers. Color coded. Photos included.

During that inspection, the inspector looked at two different outlets to see if they were grounded, didn't want to see my wiring diagram or photos, didn't look in the attic, didn't test any outlets, stove, or anything else.

smiled at me, signed off and left.

As @Cody L.: said "You assume that if I only involve some government inspector, then everything will be safe."

Clearly that is a misguided belief. The inspector was nice, fast (late for lunch I suppose), but hardly cared. And the property is only safe because I made sure, not because the inspector walked in, said hello, signed a piece of paper and walked out. Ludicrous.

You trust the government far too much my friend.

Should I have called him back in and do a complete inspection or should I have asked for my permit fee back?

Pulling a permit doesn’t guarantee it’s done right or the inspector will be this super sleuth with a bow tie, trusty flashlight, and a pen that they click a billion times.

No permit and something bad happens? You can then tell the court / insurance co.“Hey. I got a permit and the inspector looked at it.” Then the question becomes “So how was this missed, inspector? Didn’t you look at it?”

So logically, pulling permits is better than not.

[Bruce Woodruff]

Quote from @Mike Hern:

Quote from @James Hamling:

Quote from @Cody L.:

@Bruce Woodruff

Again, Building Code is under Public health and Safety, that means violation of such is legally a violation of Public Safety. Go ahead, be that guy, enjoy it while you can, don't say you weren't warned.    

@James Hamling: Simple question:

I pulled an electrical permit on a rehab in Phoenix. I decided to rewire the entire 4 bedroom 2 bath house because it had aluminum wiring.

My helper and I tore out the entire aluminum wiring and installed copper wire (to code) Outlets, stoves, heaters, AC Units, washer, dryer, lights and so on. Took pictures along the way. Neither of us is licensed.

There were two inspections a. after we ran the wire, before we put in insulation and wallboard, nothing connected (inspection took ten minutes)

b. The second inspection, I had the wiring diagram, marked with the amperage wire to each run for each outlet, receptacle, and so on back to the breakers. Color coded. Photos included.

During that inspection, the inspector looked at two different outlets to see if they were grounded, didn't want to see my wiring diagram or photos, didn't look in the attic, didn't test any outlets, stove, or anything else.

smiled at me, signed off and left.

As @Cody L.: said "You assume that if I only involve some government inspector, then everything will be safe."

Clearly that is a misguided belief. The inspector was nice, fast (late for lunch I suppose), but hardly cared. And the property is only safe because I made sure, not because the inspector walked in, said hello, signed a piece of paper and walked out. Ludicrous.

You trust the government far too much my friend.

Should I have called him back in and do a complete inspection or should I have asked for my permit fee back?

Neither. You did the right thing and covered your butt by having the inspection in the first place. That helps you out somewhat.

However a) you did not use a licensed Contractor, nor b) are you licensed in AZ, nor c) did you reside in that unit you worked on (I assume?). Therefore you could not use the Owner/Builder loophole to work on the property.

So if there ever is an electrical issue, whether a fire or someone gets shocked severely, the Insurance Company and local Fire Dept forensics will first ask you 1) "Did you get a permit for the electrical upgrade"? You'll smile and say "of course I did, do you think I'm an idiot"? Then question 2) Did a AZ State Licensed Company or persons perform the work?

That's when you clam up, say nothing and ask to have an attorney present at all further questioning.

This is somewhat of a game we play. A city or county can never actually do every permit inspection that comes through their door. They do what they can and there is some level of trust involved between all parties..as long as we all follow all of the rules, whether we like it or not - we follow the rules and we are covered.

Case in point - I once had a complete, ground-up, custom build in the desert of San Diego County.....somewhere south of Borrego Springs if you know where that is. Middle of nowhere, super high-end vacation getaway for rich folks. I started in January because I ain't dumb, I'm not working in the desert in the summer, right? Well one thing and another happens and here we are in August finishing up this house. 123 d in the shade. The Inspector shows up around noon for the most important inspection of all....gets out of his County car and starts cussing at me, like it's my fault it's hot.... 😂 Doesn't go in the house.....

He grabs the inspection card and signs it, literally throws it at me and drives off.

But...........if anything ever happens, I am covered. The Sub-contractors are covered. The property owners are covered. The County is covered

Of course the house was a perfect build because, well I built it...but still it's nice when everyone is completely covered and safe no matter what happens down the road.

[Dan Heuschele]

Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:

Quote from @Mike Hern:

Quote from @James Hamling:

Quote from @Cody L.:

@Bruce Woodruff

Again, Building Code is under Public health and Safety, that means violation of such is legally a violation of Public Safety. Go ahead, be that guy, enjoy it while you can, don't say you weren't warned.    

@James Hamling: Simple question:

I pulled an electrical permit on a rehab in Phoenix. I decided to rewire the entire 4 bedroom 2 bath house because it had aluminum wiring.

My helper and I tore out the entire aluminum wiring and installed copper wire (to code) Outlets, stoves, heaters, AC Units, washer, dryer, lights and so on. Took pictures along the way. Neither of us is licensed.

There were two inspections a. after we ran the wire, before we put in insulation and wallboard, nothing connected (inspection took ten minutes)

b. The second inspection, I had the wiring diagram, marked with the amperage wire to each run for each outlet, receptacle, and so on back to the breakers. Color coded. Photos included.

During that inspection, the inspector looked at two different outlets to see if they were grounded, didn't want to see my wiring diagram or photos, didn't look in the attic, didn't test any outlets, stove, or anything else.

smiled at me, signed off and left.

As @Cody L.: said "You assume that if I only involve some government inspector, then everything will be safe."

Clearly that is a misguided belief. The inspector was nice, fast (late for lunch I suppose), but hardly cared. And the property is only safe because I made sure, not because the inspector walked in, said hello, signed a piece of paper and walked out. Ludicrous.

You trust the government far too much my friend.

Should I have called him back in and do a complete inspection or should I have asked for my permit fee back?

Neither. You did the right thing and covered your butt by having the inspection in the first place. That helps you out somewhat.

However a) you did not use a licensed Contractor, nor b) are you licensed in AZ, nor c) did you reside in that unit you worked on (I assume?). Therefore you could not use the Owner/Builder loophole to work on the property.

So if there ever is an electrical issue, whether a fire or someone gets shocked severely, the Insurance Company and local Fire Dept forensics will first ask you 1) "Did you get a permit for the electrical upgrade"? You'll smile and say "of course I did, do you think I'm an idiot"? Then question 2) Did a AZ State Licensed Company or persons perform the work?

That's when you clam up, say nothing and ask to have an attorney present at all further questioning.

This is somewhat of a game we play. A city or county can never actually do every permit inspection that comes through their door. They do what they can and there is some level of trust involved between all parties..as long as we all follow all of the rules, whether we like it or not - we follow the rules and we are covered.

Case in point - I once had a complete, ground-up, custom build in the desert of San Diego County.....somewhere south of Borrego Springs if you know where that is. Middle of nowhere, super high-end vacation getaway for rich folks. I started in January because I ain't dumb, I'm not working in the desert in the summer, right? Well one thing and another happens and here we are in August finishing up this house. 123 d in the shade. The Inspector shows up around noon for the most important inspection of all....gets out of his County car and starts cussing at me, like it's my fault it's hot.... 😂 Doesn't go in the house.....

He grabs the inspection card and signs it, literally throws it at me and drives off.

But...........if anything ever happens, I am covered. The Sub-contractors are covered. The property owners are covered. The County is covered

Of course the house was a perfect build because, well I built it...but still it's nice when everyone is completely covered and safe no matter what happens down the road.

 I have seen you indicate that owner occupancy is required for owner/builder but that is not the case for any jurisdiction I have/had properties including city of San Diego (your old stomping ground), San Diego county, escondido, and Gulf Shores AL.  

Second you refer to it as a "loophole" when it is not a loophole.  It is clearly worded on the permit application as a viable and offered option.  It is the intent to allow owners to work on their own property, but to not allow unlicensed handymen (unless an employee) to perform the work.  A loophole is used to imply something that is permitted but was not the intent.  The intent is clear that owners can work on their property without a license (and virtually all flippers do this).  

The city of San Diego for MF properties does require disclosure of owner/build work at sale (it is on the permit application), but I have never seen this done or enforced (I have not sold any of my city of San Diego MF, but I plan to disclose it if I sell as it is so common that it will have zero impact on a sale, especially larger MF have employees that do the bulk of maintenance/work).

[Bruce Woodruff]

Quote from @Dan Heuschele:

Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:

Quote from @Mike Hern:

Quote from @James Hamling:

Quote from @Cody L.:

@Bruce Woodruff

Again, Building Code is under Public health and Safety, that means violation of such is legally a violation of Public Safety. Go ahead, be that guy, enjoy it while you can, don't say you weren't warned.    

@James Hamling: Simple question:

I pulled an electrical permit on a rehab in Phoenix. I decided to rewire the entire 4 bedroom 2 bath house because it had aluminum wiring.

My helper and I tore out the entire aluminum wiring and installed copper wire (to code) Outlets, stoves, heaters, AC Units, washer, dryer, lights and so on. Took pictures along the way. Neither of us is licensed.

There were two inspections a. after we ran the wire, before we put in insulation and wallboard, nothing connected (inspection took ten minutes)

b. The second inspection, I had the wiring diagram, marked with the amperage wire to each run for each outlet, receptacle, and so on back to the breakers. Color coded. Photos included.

During that inspection, the inspector looked at two different outlets to see if they were grounded, didn't want to see my wiring diagram or photos, didn't look in the attic, didn't test any outlets, stove, or anything else.

smiled at me, signed off and left.

As @Cody L.: said "You assume that if I only involve some government inspector, then everything will be safe."

Clearly that is a misguided belief. The inspector was nice, fast (late for lunch I suppose), but hardly cared. And the property is only safe because I made sure, not because the inspector walked in, said hello, signed a piece of paper and walked out. Ludicrous.

You trust the government far too much my friend.

Should I have called him back in and do a complete inspection or should I have asked for my permit fee back?

Neither. You did the right thing and covered your butt by having the inspection in the first place. That helps you out somewhat.

However a) you did not use a licensed Contractor, nor b) are you licensed in AZ, nor c) did you reside in that unit you worked on (I assume?). Therefore you could not use the Owner/Builder loophole to work on the property.

So if there ever is an electrical issue, whether a fire or someone gets shocked severely, the Insurance Company and local Fire Dept forensics will first ask you 1) "Did you get a permit for the electrical upgrade"? You'll smile and say "of course I did, do you think I'm an idiot"? Then question 2) Did a AZ State Licensed Company or persons perform the work?

That's when you clam up, say nothing and ask to have an attorney present at all further questioning.

This is somewhat of a game we play. A city or county can never actually do every permit inspection that comes through their door. They do what they can and there is some level of trust involved between all parties..as long as we all follow all of the rules, whether we like it or not - we follow the rules and we are covered.

Case in point - I once had a complete, ground-up, custom build in the desert of San Diego County.....somewhere south of Borrego Springs if you know where that is. Middle of nowhere, super high-end vacation getaway for rich folks. I started in January because I ain't dumb, I'm not working in the desert in the summer, right? Well one thing and another happens and here we are in August finishing up this house. 123 d in the shade. The Inspector shows up around noon for the most important inspection of all....gets out of his County car and starts cussing at me, like it's my fault it's hot.... 😂 Doesn't go in the house.....

He grabs the inspection card and signs it, literally throws it at me and drives off.

But...........if anything ever happens, I am covered. The Sub-contractors are covered. The property owners are covered. The County is covered

Of course the house was a perfect build because, well I built it...but still it's nice when everyone is completely covered and safe no matter what happens down the road.

 I have seen you indicate that owner occupancy is required for owner/builder but that is not the case for any jurisdiction I have/had properties including city of San Diego (your old stomping ground), San Diego county, escondido, and Gulf Shores AL.  

Second you refer to it as a "loophole" when it is not a loophole.  It is clearly worded on the permit application as a viable and offered option.  It is the intent to allow owners to work on their own property, but to not allow unlicensed handymen (unless an employee) to perform the work.  A loophole is used to imply something that is permitted but was not the intent.  The intent is clear that owners can work on their property without a license (and virtually all flippers do this).  

The city of San Diego for MF properties does require disclosure of owner/build work at sale (it is on the permit application), but I have never seen this done or enforced (I have not sold any of my city of San Diego MF, but I plan to disclose it if I sell as it is so common that it will have zero impact on a sale, especially larger MF have employees that do the bulk of maintenance/work).

Dan - I checked, and under California law I was correct. Here is the verbiage from the CSLB website: https://www.cslb.ca.gov/consum...

This section defines what an owner-builder is and the laws surrounding the practice.

• An owner-builder is what the term indicates: a person owns the property and acts as their own general contractor on the job, and either does the work themselves or has employees (or subcontractors) working on the project.
• The work site must be their principal place of residence that they have occupied for 12 months prior to completion of the work.
• The homeowner cannot construct and then sell more than two structures during any three-year period.

The intention is obvious and correct...without this rule in place, waay too many homeowners would compete very unfairly against Contractors who went the all the steps to do things the right way.
And by 'loophole' I didn't mean anything bad or illegal, just a work-around so people could work on their own primary residence (as they should be able to).

[Dan Heuschele]

I currently have 2 permits submitted in Escondido, one owner-builder and the other using a licensed contractor (patio roof).

I grabbed my paperwork for the one I declare as owner-builder and it was as I indicated with nothing certifying that the property is owner occupied.  Seems strange that city of Escondido, and other San Deigo jurisdictions, have owner-builder application not certify owner occupied if it is required by the state.

There was something though that did not apply to me and therefore I did not remember.   The owner-builder permit cannot be intended or offered for sale (at least in Escondido).   If the property is sold within a year, the owner-builder has the burden of proving that the build or improve was not for the purpose to sale.  This implies that owner-builder in  Escondido, even though jurisdiction does not require owner-occupied, cannot legally do the work for a flip.  I question if this is typical in most jurisdictions and if so makes you wonder how all of these mostly do it themselves flippers are doing this.  It may be yet another item that there is no enforcement (like the city of San Diego owner-build work must declare owner-builder work on-sale of MF and about 50% of the items that require a permit but seems to never be enforced (such as water heater replacement).

[Bruce Woodruff]

Quote from @Dan Heuschele:

I currently have 2 permits submitted in Escondido, one owner-builder and the other using a licensed contractor (patio roof).

I grabbed my paperwork for the one I declare as owner-builder and it was as I indicated with nothing certifying that the property is owner occupied.  Seems strange that city of Escondido, and other San Deigo jurisdictions, have owner-builder application not certify owner occupied if it is required by the state.

There was something though that did not apply to me and therefore I did not remember.   The owner-builder permit cannot be intended or offered for sale (at least in Escondido).   If the property is sold within a year, the owner-builder has the burden of proving that the build or improve was not for the purpose to sale.  This implies that owner-builder in  Escondido, even though jurisdiction does not require owner-occupied, cannot legally do the work for a flip.  I question if this is typical in most jurisdictions and if so makes you wonder how all of these mostly do it themselves flippers are doing this.  It may be yet another item that there is no enforcement (like the city of San Diego owner-build work must declare owner-builder work on-sale of MF and about 50% of the items that require a permit but seems to never be enforced (such as water heater replacement).

Yeah, they never enforced it much, but I still wouldn't mess with it. I know that CSLB does stings for this occasionally. Be careful.....

[Dan Heuschele]

Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:

Quote from @Dan Heuschele:

I currently have 2 permits submitted in Escondido, one owner-builder and the other using a licensed contractor (patio roof).

I grabbed my paperwork for the one I declare as owner-builder and it was as I indicated with nothing certifying that the property is owner occupied.  Seems strange that city of Escondido, and other San Deigo jurisdictions, have owner-builder application not certify owner occupied if it is required by the state.

There was something though that did not apply to me and therefore I did not remember.   The owner-builder permit cannot be intended or offered for sale (at least in Escondido).   If the property is sold within a year, the owner-builder has the burden of proving that the build or improve was not for the purpose to sale.  This implies that owner-builder in  Escondido, even though jurisdiction does not require owner-occupied, cannot legally do the work for a flip.  I question if this is typical in most jurisdictions and if so makes you wonder how all of these mostly do it themselves flippers are doing this.  It may be yet another item that there is no enforcement (like the city of San Diego owner-build work must declare owner-builder work on-sale of MF and about 50% of the items that require a permit but seems to never be enforced (such as water heater replacement).

Yeah, they never enforced it much, but I still wouldn't mess with it. I know that CSLB does stings for this occasionally. Be careful.....

 On my owner-build permit application, I did not certify anything that was not true.  I certified that either I or my employees will do the work and that I have no intention of selling.  I have no intent to sell.  I am not using a handyman or contractors for any work to be done.

I am not worried if anyone wants to enforce the state OO requirement as the jurisdiction is not mandating OO and did not have me certify OO. In addition, people at the Escondido permit office know I am owner-builder and not OO (my home address is on the permit application). As indicated, city of San Diego also did not require certifying OO for owner-builder, but for MF they require disclosure of owner-builder work upon selling.

I do find it strange that jurisdictions do not require OO, but the state seems to require OO.

[Bruce Woodruff]

Quote from @Dan Heuschele:

Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:

Quote from @Dan Heuschele:

I currently have 2 permits submitted in Escondido, one owner-builder and the other using a licensed contractor (patio roof).

I grabbed my paperwork for the one I declare as owner-builder and it was as I indicated with nothing certifying that the property is owner occupied.  Seems strange that city of Escondido, and other San Deigo jurisdictions, have owner-builder application not certify owner occupied if it is required by the state.

There was something though that did not apply to me and therefore I did not remember.   The owner-builder permit cannot be intended or offered for sale (at least in Escondido).   If the property is sold within a year, the owner-builder has the burden of proving that the build or improve was not for the purpose to sale.  This implies that owner-builder in  Escondido, even though jurisdiction does not require owner-occupied, cannot legally do the work for a flip.  I question if this is typical in most jurisdictions and if so makes you wonder how all of these mostly do it themselves flippers are doing this.  It may be yet another item that there is no enforcement (like the city of San Diego owner-build work must declare owner-builder work on-sale of MF and about 50% of the items that require a permit but seems to never be enforced (such as water heater replacement).

Yeah, they never enforced it much, but I still wouldn't mess with it. I know that CSLB does stings for this occasionally. Be careful.....

 On my owner-build permit application, I did not certify anything that was not true.  I certified that either I or my employees will do the work and that I have no intention of selling.  I have no intent to sell.  I am not using a handyman or contractors for any work to be done.

I am not worried if anyone wants to enforce the state OO requirement as the jurisdiction is not mandating OO and did not have me certify OO. In addition, people at the Escondido permit office know I am owner-builder and not OO (my home address is on the permit application). As indicated, city of San Diego also did not require certifying OO for owner-builder, but for MF they require disclosure of owner-builder work upon selling.

I do find it strange that jurisdictions do not require OO, but the state seems to require OO.

I would bet you that the clerks at the local offices do not even know what the law is. Govt is too big. I wouldn't worry about it. Even if they bring it up one day, you can just state truthfully that 'hey, you guys never said anything about it'...